Rachmaninoff Sonatas

[in_love_with_liszt]

Anyone know which Rachmaninoff sonata is more difficult? I remember reading something saying the first was more difficult. Which one would make a better concert piece?

[liszmaninopin]

Ahh...the Rachmaninoff Sonatas.  I love both of them!

Anyway, to answer your questions.  I've played the first, but not really the second.  I would say that the second is more difficult to sight-read, due to the large numbers of accidentals, and the dense writing.  However, I would go along with those who consider the first sonata the more difficult of the two.  I say this for several reasons:  first of all, it is considerably longer than the second sonata.  This demands much endurance, and the first sonata maintains a great emotional intensity all the way through the piece, making it very draining.  Also, some passages of the first sonata are, in my opinion, very very difficult.  In the first mvt., you have those rapid left hand notes throughout the piece, that must be done fast and done correctly.  Then, the big jumping chords later in the mvt. are also difficult.  In the second mvt., you have fast fingerwork in spots, as well as those cruel trills towards the end.  Finally, in the third movement, there are many spots of jumping chords, areas of several voices playing at once in which constant rythm must be maintained, and also spots where the hands do lots of switching position and crossing over.  The third movement is very complex.

As for which is more effective in concert, I'd say that with a convincing performance either could very highly effective.  The second is more overtly flashy, and also shorter, so might be better for some circumstances.  However, the first is played much less frequently, so you would have the benefits that come with uncommon repertoire.

All in all, play whichever one you feel you can do a better job at, they're both amazing works.

[Motrax]

Do you have any recordings to recommend for these sonatas? I just have one recording of the second sonata, and I'm not sure who the pianist is (the joys of downloading...), but I don't really like it much. It would be a shame to dislike a piece because of a lousy performance.

And for a first recording of the first Sonata, I'd want to start off with a good one right away.

[liszmaninopin]

hmmm, recommended recordings...

First Sonata:  I just got an LP with John Ogden playing both sonatas, his first is excellent.  There is a free recording on the internet of this sonata, played by a Mi-Jung Im (if I remember correctly) which I can give you a link to, it's a good performance overall.  I've been told that Berezovsky performs this sonata well, but can't personally vouch for him.  I know what you mean about wanting to start off with a good one, but unfortunately there are few really good performances of this piece out there (in my opinion).  The best free online performance that I've come across is Mi-Jung's.

Second Soanta:  Howoritz, who plays his own version, is excellent (especially in the third movement!).  Freddy Kempf played the original (1913) version, and he plays it rather well.  Van Cliburn's recording is good.  John Browning has recorded this sonata, and I find his version to be very well played.

[in_love_with_liszt]

Actually that brings up another question-
The first recording I ever heard of the first sonata was a MIDI file from the classical archives, and I really liked this one part in the 3rd movement. Then I came across Mi-Jung's recording and she doesn't play it the same way...perhaps one of the recordings has an Ossia? I liked the midi of the final movement better than her performance, in terms of the actual music, and it is slightly different in two passages that are similar.

[liszmaninopin]

I'm afraid I've not listened to the midi, perhaps I'll do that one of these days and get back to you on it...

About the ossia-there is no ossia in my score.  However, that doesn't mean that a performer can't make some modifications to the score.

[liszmaninopin]

I just listened to the midi of the third movement to which you refer, very fast!

[in_love_with_liszt]

Yeah, it is pretty fast, but the part that I really like is at about 2:00 into the 3rd movement, and the same motif shows up later in the piece. In Mi-Jung's recording it's just a passage of basic chords...not as interesting in my opinion, which music does your score show, because if it's not the same as the midi I really want to find the music to that version/arrangement.

[in_love_with_liszt]

Just as an afterthought-I don't think the fast tempo of the midi seems unreasonabe, because listening to most of Rachmaninoff's own recordings of his works compared to other pianist's recordings, his are generally taken at a faster tempo. Just an observation...

[liszmaninopin]

Yeah, the idea of a fast tempo is not unreasonable (I actually really like the tempo, but I know I can't play the movement that fast, accurately anyway...), but some of those rapid chords near the end of the midi are extremely fast.  That midi is faster than any human recording I've heard of the piece.

I'm tired now, but tomorrow I'll compare the passage that you mention between the midi, Mi-Jung's, and the score.  Also, I'll compare it with the Ogden (my overall favorite recording).  Perhaps I'll figure out what's going on, perhaps not...

[mh88]

One of the best performances I've ever heard of the 2nd Sonata is by Lang Lang in his debut at Carnegie Hall.

As far an technique goes, the 2nd is harder.

[liszmaninopin]

Why do you consider it harder?

Again, I've not actually brought the second up to any kind of performance level, but I have the first.  Overall, I got the feeling of the first being harder.

[mh88]

I guess what determines what piece is harder is what my own strengths are, granted any Rach. piace requires strength of hands and technical mastery.  I'm in the same boat, I've played the 2nd and have only dabbled with the 1st.  I think you should master the 2nd and me the 1st, then we can debate...haha.

[in_love_with_liszt]

any place I can look at the score of the first online?

[liszmaninopin]

yeah, but its a horrendously slow download from the original site.

I can give you the link if you want, but is there a way to post attachments to pianoforum posts?  The file is 3.03 MB, thusly, too big for me to email to you.

[DarkWind]

Try piano.ru

[liszmaninopin]

Here is the link, a pdf of sonata #1 is downloadable on this site:

https://lib-scores.narod.ru/

I will warn you, however, it's ridiculously slow.  I have a fast connection and it took me an hour to download the pdf.

[in_love_with_liszt]

Ok let me just call up my handy Russian translator and tell him to come over...oh, that's right, I don't have one  

[liszmaninopin]

yeah, ummm...

Here is the exact link to the Rachmaninoff page:

https://www.piano.ru/rah.html

once you're there, go down to the seventh blue link.  It should look roughly like:

Niiaoa 1

(I don't know how to add the proper markings on an English keyboard)

right click on it, then hit "save target as," name your file, and download it.

[liszmaninopin]

did you get to download the score yet?

I think they must have updated their connection-the other day I tried downloading a new score from them and it went fairly quickly.

[bachmaninov]

I am learning the Second (Third movement)... So hard i want to quit piano!!!! =p

[liszmaninopin]

just think of how much fun it will be to play when you have it finished!

[Rach3]

I'm learning the first movement.

[liszmaninopin]

which version of the second does everyone prefer?  (original or revised)

[in_love_with_liszt]

Where can I listen to a recording of the revised version? I've only heard the origional, and although it is a bit out there and post-romantic I like it. The revised version is supposed to sound more pleasing, am I correct? I just remember reading that at the time people didn't like the new radical sound of the origional version, so good ol' Rach went back and revised it so it would be more to the tastes of the public. Awwww how sweet. Not. (Follower of the movement to outlaw revisions and ossias  )

[liszmaninopin]

You can find plenty of recordings of the revised on disc, and around the internet.  I'll get around to finding a link to the revised second for you sometime...

I, personally, much prefer the original version.  The revised, to me, is not really more pleasing, but it's much thinner in texture, losing alot of the grand power and elaboration of the original version.  Actually, it was Rach himself who thought there was alot of superfluous material in the original, and revised it in a shorter, technically easier format; I don't think the public had much to do with it.

[thracozaag]

You can find plenty of recordings of the revised on disc, and around the internet.  I'll get around to finding a link to the revised second for you sometime...

I, personally, much prefer the original version.  The revised, to me, is not really more pleasing, but it's much thinner in texture, losing alot of the grand power and elaboration of the original version.  Actually, it was Rach himself who thought there was alot of superfluous material in the original, and revised it in a shorter, technically easier format; I don't think the public had much to do with it.

 I agree, the revised version sounds....emasculated.  For true Rachmaninoff afficionados who love all his huge faults, the original version is far more satisfying.

koji