Broken early HF Miller piano worth saving?

[shio2010]

I was given an antique HF Miller piano a year ago. It has a beautiful dark brown/black carved body, but is out of tune, missing one felt, missing some ivory veneers and has ink marks on other keys. Although some piano technicians advised me it wouldn't be worth the trouble and money, I'd planned to restore it...

Recently, it was moved to my new house and in the process, the board came off and the bottom piece of wood around the pedals split and cracked, almost in half. It looks as if the piano was about to split in two right down the middle!

Will this breakage have an impact on its ability to play, or on the sound?
Is it possible to glue/staple/replace this piece of wood and keep the piano playable?

It's sad, but I now wonder if I should just take the instrument apart and make the bits and pieces into other things. I know some folks repurpose the wood as a headboard, desk, etc.

Does anyone think it's worth saving at this point?
I'd appreciate your feedback.

[jimbo320]

Shio,
Did the break result from dropping the piano? If not is the wood dried out from years of neglect? If you're serious about restoring it new strings and keys just might be the beginning. If by what you say that it seems like splitting in half, than maybe you should forget it. To give you a solid opinion I'd have to see it. It depends on how far down the money pit you're willing to go....
Contact this guy Dan https://www.silverwoodpianos.com/ for a better handle on the situation...

Musically, Jimbo

[keys60]

We humans are a funny lot, becoming emotionally attached these gorgeous beasts of old world craftsmanship. Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen a piano I didn't like. Even a crappy old Betsy Ross spinet has a history.

Based on what you described, I'd have to say no. A new decent piano would cost less than the restoration job of a piano that has no more than sentimental value.

[silverwoodpianos]

The OP kindly states “the board came off”…I am wondering which board…..and then the bottom piece of wood around the pedals broke; Is this an upright we are talking about here? The runner around the pedals doesn’t hold much structure and is screwed to the bottom board as the pedals are too. The instrument can be flipped onto a piano dolly and repaired.

Now I can see that the OP also mentions “some piano technicians” have already advised not to continue to repair this item. Seems to me that the feedback has already been given on this one but not accepted……

Now the question does anyone think it is worth restoring? I am wondering how we would come to know anything more than the attending technicians that have already formed an opinion on the matter at hand.

[rysowers]

All I can say about these types of pianos is:

PROCEED WITH CAUTION!

Sometimes older upright pianos are a diamond in the rough, but often they have too many problems to get reasonably good results for a reasonable amount of money. Just an "economy" grade restoration can easily run $5-6 or more. This would still leave most of the original parts.

The key here is to really know your piano technician and make sure he or she has the best reputation around. The piano technician industry is highly unregulated, and even the most experienced players and teachers are fairly in the dark when it comes to how they work. So it is easy to get involved with a piano project with an unsatisfactory outcome.

In most cases top-notch technicians are Registered Members of the Piano Technicians Guild. While being an RPT(Registered Piano Technician) demonstrates only a minimum skill/knowledge set, most serious career technicians make the decision to achieve this credential and take advantage of the vast amount of knowledge and education available to PTG members.

The reality is that many universities insist that technicians applying for university technician jobs be Registered by the Guild. The top technicians at Steinway & Sons are registered piano technicians, and at least in the Pacific Northwest, the technicians for the major concert venues are Registered Piano Technicians.

That being said, there are some very well-respected technicians who don't join for personal or philosophical reasons, or just don't see the need.

[silverwoodpianos]

In most cases top-notch technicians are Registered Members of the Piano Technicians Guild. While being an RPT(Registered Piano Technician) demonstrates only a minimum skill/knowledge set, most serious career technicians make the decision to achieve this credential and take advantage of the vast amount of knowledge and education available to PTG members.

The reality is that many universities insist that technicians applying for university technician jobs be Registered by the Guild. The top technicians at Steinway & Sons are registered piano technicians, and at least in the Pacific Northwest, the technicians for the major concert venues are Registered Piano Technicians.

That being said, there are some very well-respected technicians who don't join for personal or philosophical reasons, or just don't see the need.

Not to be too objective here but the topic for this thread is the Henry F. Miller piano and if it is worth saving. The OP has received several responses related to the piano in question.

 If Piano Street members here would like to proselytize about other topics like the Piano Technicians Guild or any designations regarding membership in that organization please pool all of your consideration into one place and begin another thread on the topic so that this does not interfere with the response for the OP regarding the instrument in question.

Thanks for the consideration.

[shio2010]

Can you see the cracked wood around the pedal in these photos... Can this be repaired?
If so, is it worthwhile?

[silverwoodpianos]

Appears to have been repaired previously. What I would do now is this;

Take a small electric drill and small gauge bit maybe 3/16 drill all the way through the board from top to bottom. Three holes; one on each end, one in the middle between the two pedals, yes all the way through and out the bottom.

Then countersink the top holes. Then take light gauge threaded rod or long stem bolts and nuts and send them through the entire broken area and tighten them together. In order for the bottom board to fit in place again you will have to counter sink the top holes so the bolt head or nut fits down inside.

Then fill with epoxy style wood filler and colour. Or you can use something like the epoxy style body filler for automobiles; dries in 30 mins and accepts any colour…..

You can remove that piece of flat stock off the top there and you have three holes already started.....this is about a 30 min job.....

[john90]

This looks like it has a nice overstrung frame. It would be interesting to see a picture of the action and the hammer felts. I completely understand why you want to save it. If it were in my house, I would vacuum the inside, and then do the repair as above, getting it as clean as I could first. This makes it less appealing to moths etc, and allows you to look for other problems. If you are feeling very brave, take the keys out one by one, vacuum underneath, or just vacuum around them in situ. Make sure no paper spacers or felts get sucked in if removing the keys, and be careful to put them back in the right place (they are usually numbered). I would then tune it to its self (without raising too many notes) using a PC tuning program or whatever, and get it to hold some sort of tune. If it holds tune you could have an attractive little piano that you can enjoy, and perhaps even sell if you move again.

I don't know what the action is like, or the dampers, so I will assume the worst. In this case I would not try to learn to play Mozart on it from scratch, the cheapest way might be to get a digital for that. But learning/playing ragtime, pub piano music, it could be great fun. When I had the luxury of two acoustic pianos in the house, one was something like this (actually not as good). The other was quite a bit more modern and more precise.
 
So not worth spending on (in terms of professional labour and return on investment), but well worth fixing yourself. Many piano parts can be sourced quite reasonably for DIY. You could end up with some attractive and functional furniture that may well hold tune.

[keys60]

You see? That's what I'm talkin' about.
John90, I'd like to compliment you on your last post.
I've posted previously that there aren't many pianos out there that I don't like.
You see what I see. Beauty in its ugliness sort of speak. If it plays, play it. Not every worn out old piano needs to see the junk pile. I wouldn't see the potential of sinking thousands into this piano. It probably is not cost effective nor is a good restoration candidate. But if you are a beginner or just like to pound out some honky tonk or some contemporary stuff, even this old clunker has some value. If it holds a reasonable tune, tune it. If you know a good wood worker, than that broken piece can be duplicated. By the way, those square cut outs for the pedals need to be edged with felt for noise reduction. If a few damper felts are missing, most techs have plenty of old salvaged felts around and would gladly glue a few on for a few bucks.
Still have the rod (dowel)for the left pedal?
Anyway, good advice for now. Call a tech. Spend a few bucks having him check the torque of you pins and throw a tune on it, then take it from there. A few repairs at a time and you might have an old fun machine to mess around with.
If your intentions are to be a serious student, start shopping in the meantime.

[john90]

Well, my compliments go to shio2010. That is one nice piano collection you have there. My favorite so far is your Mystery Piano, with the open pinblock, and that nice underdamped action.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=40362.msg448973#msg448973

It reminds me of the only time I was in Boston, Ma, 20 years ago. The YMCA had bussed a load of us from the town to somewhere in the sticks, a big wooden hall with loads of bunk beds upstairs. In the morning I spotted a piano with a very similar case to that one, up against the middle of the side wall. Two youths were messing near it, up came a third who claimed to be some expert piano student. He loudly pronounced the instrument as scrap, saying it was impossible to play a tune on it and it was not worth fixing. The woman making breakfast was visibly upset. I brushed them aside, warmed up with the Black and White Rag, then gave the Maple Leaf all I could, hard, reasonably quick, and a lot of pedal. The whole floor and walls seemed to be acting as one massive sound board, and the vibrations were going through my whole body, and presumably everyone else's. Needless to say I got a big smile and an extra egg for breakfast. I thought the sound of the piano was amazing. A modern, well damped, perfectly setup piano is so totally unforgiving and just can't do that. A midi keyboard and Garage Band can do a convincing grand piano. But nothing electronic so far sounds anything like that old upright in that hall. Millions and millions of pianos were built up to the 30s, every shack in town was banging that stuff out, yet so few will get to reproduce that today. Where I am in Switzerland, tiny apartments being the rule, I've never seen anything remotely like this Mystery Piano. Quite sad.

[shio2010]

Well, I paid a piano technician for a 'technical assessment' of both my antique upright Henry F Miller piano and my "mystery" piano. Here are the results:

A) Miller - mid-1800s, wood frame - VERY TIRED and not worth restoring -- get rid of it / use the parts to make a table or a sculpture or something

B) possibly a "Dominion" piano, early 1900s, iron frame - TIRED; has been dried out and then subjected to a very damp environment; cracked board, but that's not the biggest problem; will cost $600-$700 to restore to playable (not concert!) condition -- questionable as to whether it is worth the investment...

The technician suggested buying another used "smaller" (apartment-size? -- pls see attached photos) piano in better condition from him.

Any feedback welcome on this development and on the piano offered!

[john90]

Given the choice of all 3, I would take the Mystery piano, learn to tune it yourself, or buy a grand. I don't think any of the three are concert instruments. How about getting a grand, having that tuned professionally, and playing yourself with the other two.

[silverwoodpianos]

Well, I paid a piano technician for a 'technical assessment' of both my antique upright Henry F Miller piano and my "mystery" piano. Here are the results:

A) Miller - mid-1800s, wood frame - VERY TIRED and not worth restoring -- get rid of it / use the parts to make a table or a sculpture or something

B) possibly a "Dominion" piano, early 1900s, iron frame - TIRED; has been dried out and then subjected to a very damp environment; cracked board, but that's not the biggest problem; will cost $600-$700 to restore to playable (not concert!) condition -- questionable as to whether it is worth the investment...

The technician suggested buying another used "smaller" (apartment-size? -- pls see attached photos) piano in better condition from him.

Any feedback welcome on this development and on the piano offered!

The problem I have with this is that fact that the same technician looked at the old pianos and gave them a negative assessment; then comes up with a piano of his own for you to purchase….

A bit conflicted there….perhaps I am too suspicious, the tech might be genuinely trying to help you but at the same time help himself with a sale…….. but it seems to be a bit more than a coincidence.

It is true that the last photo is of a more modern instrument. Anything of this age would be in better shape mechanically most of the time unless abused or neglected.

[dcstudio]

Given the choice of all 3, I would take the Mystery piano, learn to tune it yourself, or buy a grand. I don't think any of the three are concert instruments. How about getting a grand, having that tuned professionally, and playing yourself with the other two.

when your instrument speaks to you -- you know it.