How to play the Turn in Chopin Prelude Op. 28 - 4?

[lars_o]

I'm working on this prelude and there is this turn in measure 16 which in my (Henle) edition has a double-sharp accidental in parentheses printed below it (see attached image). I'm unsure how this is supposed to be played:
First of all does it apply to the A# or to the G?
Since the double sharp is below the turn symbol I guess it applies to the lower auxiliary note.
So if it applies to the A#, and I read the double-shap correctly, the lower auxiliary note would be A-natural (G raised by two half notes) that could mean the sequence should be A#-B-A#-A-A#.
If it applies to the G, I wouldn't think the double sharp applies to the upper note which is already raised once to A# and would become B making the sequence B-G-F#-G. Which seems really strange. So I think it must apply to the A#.

It would be great if someone who knows this a little better could confirm this or help me out with the correct interpretation of this sequence.

Thanks a lot!
Lars

[gyzzzmo]

A# B A# A A# -> G

And i dont know why it could apply to the G, because the figure should be right of the G in that case

[stevebob]

lars, I think your confusion comes from not identifying the notes of the turn.  The double-sharp sign does indeed refer to G, but to the G that is the lower auxiliary of turn rather than the crotchet G an octave higher that follows the turn.

As gyzzzmo said, the correct notes for the turn are:

B
A♯
G double sharp
A♯

[lars_o]

Thanks!

@gyzzzmo, I though it was possible for a turn sign to also appear to the left of the note that it applies to, but I now realize that there simply doesn't seem to be such a thing. I guess I just assumed this because the absolute distance of the turn sign to the G is smaller that its distance to the A#. Thus I jumped to the conclusin that it may apply to the G :-)

I listened to a few version of this piece I found on youtube and there were one or two that seemed play the turn as just 4 notes (like stevebob said) and other used five like gyzzzmo said.

After re-reading a bit about the notation, since the turn sign is not directly above the A# it would appear to me as though the five-note version is more correct although the four-note version is easier to do rhythmically. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[stevebob]

Either of these is fine:

[pianowolfi]

Either of these is fine:

Yes

And if you wish listen to this, it's wonderful:

[lars_o]

Stevebob, that's marvelous. Much appreciated!

[stevebob]

Glad I could help out, lars.

[lars_o]

This piece is also featured in a really nice TED talk by Benjamin Zander
https://www.ted.com/talks/benjamin_zander_on_music_and_passion.html

[jonslaughter]

I know this is 15 years old but I want to add that this if you are unsure about something and play the various versions usually your ear will tell you which one works. One should hone this ability because it will solve many problems. Part of this is just getting used to tonality and style(sometimes there are choices and different composers will do different things).

in this case the notation is clear but one could discover the correct notes simply by the surrounding. It is clearly A# and B for the UN and PN. The LN could be a G# or G## = A. The A is the note because G# simply does not sound right(the G## is acting as a leading tone for the PN). A G# would contradict the minor and diminished tonality. It wouldn't necessarily sound bad but it sounds weak and, at least to my ears, it does not quite fit. After all there is a G in the chord. Clearly the melody works fine in either case without the harmony so it is the underlying chord that is forcing it to be a chromatic turn. One doesn't find this in too many cases and it is interesting how Chopin was able to set it up and resolve it to make it sound natural and interesting.