Help, advice, tips, secrets

[ahmedito]

Attention profesional pianists, teachers and college/graduate piano students.

Theres a really stupid post here about sharing your secrets, which seems to be more concerned about piano "tricks" (  , Im sure Ill have this guy answering here about how his post isnt stupid and all the usual crap... please dont, if youre offended send me a lengthy IM instead.... k?)

But you know, I think a way to make this forum helpful is if we all started to post here small tips on practicing, performance and theory that have helped us during our careers. (This is not about tricks... believe me). I dont want this thread to become a place where people argue enldlessly about some particular tip someone posted (or about things that dont have anything to do with the topic for that matter), so please take that elsewhere. I want this to be helpful to others... especially those who are teacherless be it by their own decision or not.

Just post your tip and try to be helpful  

No matter how obvious you think it is, many people here are self taught and having had experience at masterclasses and with self taught pianists Ive found that things one takes for granted (like practice slowly) are usually things that are completely mind-blowing for the right person.


Thanx again.

[nick]

I agree. I have found though,after the piece is well learned that practicing slowly doesn't help speed one bit.
Nick

[Fastzuernst]

I second that.

[ahmedito]

I found out at masterclasses that my big mistake when practicing slowly is the fact that I didnt try to replicate the fast hand movements when playing slowly. You must always have a very clear idea of how its going to sound or feel when playing fast. Once a piece is more up to speed, I suggest you do both; fast and slow.

[ahmedito]

At master classes with Jean Baptiste Muller, he made a comment that was MOST helpful (it basically changed my way of playing after that).

"Why do you stress?"
"It's not hard to play the piano."
"The strength needed to press the keys is minimal, why do you tense you're muscles?"
"The sound is coming from right in front of you, why not enjoy it?"
"Bad teachers teach you that the piano is a hard thing, when its actually very easy to play."

[matt_black]

thanks people - these are the kinds ogf things I was looking for as well as runs tips etc - it seems I ask a question and get called an idiot and someone else asks the same question and gets an answer - I will use all these tips on my web page cheeers
xxxxx

[ahmedito]

Hey Bernhard! How about a tip of the day, huh?  

My tip of the day:

Here's a real obvious one, that surprisingly, many people dont know. At classes with Dimitri Bashkirov he got very angry at one of his students because she couldnt play long arpeggio that is very fast (in Chopin's La ci Darem variations). Basically, he had told her how to practice it many times, but she didn't do it. Its not always about practicing slowly, but also about practicing very fast in short bursts. For example, in the arppegio you would practice it slowly to get a feel of where each finger goes and afterwards you would practice fast the diferent parts of the arpeggio, dividing it in octaves, or in 2 octave groups.

[DarkWind]

Here is something I learned from Bernhard in yesterday's chat. The easiest way to learn something is to simplify. Break it up into parts. See how much times something is repeated and only practice just one of the same repetitions to have all the others learned. Then slowly start joining up everything.
Also, read Fundamentals of Piano Practice by Dr. Chang, it really helps, and gives you great ideas and tells you basically the effective way to practice.

[ahmedito]

Here is something that ALL of the pianists, at masterclasses, and teachers Ive had have agreed on:

(I think many of you will find it helpful, especially self taught guys.)

HANON IS THE WORK OF THE DEVIL!!!!

The sheer number of ruined hands and tendons is amazing. Kids and guys without a teacher (and some with teachers) are lured into it only to mess up their technique by studying it wrong. It gives you a promise of technique, but the possible adverse effects from playing it wrong are far more than the few benefits. Believe me, I have heard from many great pianists Hannon is not good at all, dont be lured by it. There are far better ways of improving your technique. Hannon lures you with promises of easy techinique, and younger musicians tend to think that the best way to aquire virtuosity is by playing these kinds of finger excercices over and over again. Even with teachers who DO use finger excercices, Hannon is just a BAD method. Czerny, Cortot and even Brahms are much better as far as finger excercices go. If you have fallen into the Hannon trap, as I have and so many others have, think about this please.

[zhiliang]

I would say that practicing the Chopin etudes would be so much better. Of course not everyone is capable of playing them well but one can always use maybe the 1st 8 bars of one of them (choose one which you may work on a weaker part of your technique). Then work on it, using it as a daily exercise. Slowly, you might not know it, but soon you may have the whole etude learnt and isnt that better than playing Hanon?

Zhiliang

[jr11]

HANON IS THE WORK OF THE DEVIL!!!!

Well, I guess he does use that evil vii chord in his progressions  

Anyway, if Hanon is the devil, whatever about Pischna? My hands ache after a couple of those!

[liszmaninopin]

Try to memorize music as quickly as possible.  I find that once I have a piece really memorized, playing it at or above tempo accurately becomes rather easy(even for really hard stuff).  I rarely play at tempo from the score-I just memorize it and then I already know what to play.  The hands just kind of do the work on their own.

[Antnee]

Try to memorize music as quickly as possible.  I find that once I have a piece really memorized, playing it at or above tempo accurately becomes rather easy(even for really hard stuff).  I rarely play at tempo from the score-I just memorize it and then I already know what to play.  The hands just kind of do the work on their own.

That's what I do!! I was going to ask if this is a good way to learn music or is it considered to be more benificial to learn it while sight reading it. I hope that made sense...

-Tony-

[liszmaninopin]

Don't get me wrong-I learn it from sheet music to begin.  Basically, I sight read through a piece of music I want to learn-in easy parts the fingerings are usually obvious.  In a difficult passage, I work out a fingering that will work at speed, and write it down so I won't forget it.  Then, I play through the music as quickly as I can comfortably with my fingerings, and memorize it as fast as I can.  Then, after it's memorized, is when I push and bring all sections, including hard ones, up to speed.  There are some pieces of music that simply can't be sight-read at speed.

[beingforitself]

There are some pieces of music that simply can't be sight-read at speed.

It would be more accurate to say that there are varying sight reading abilities. I have seen someone sight read up to speed the Chopin prelude in b-flat minor.

[jeff]

a quote i like from the documentary Richter: The Enigma -

Richter: (after being asked what he requires of a piano) "i require more of myself"

[liszmaninopin]

I know-I have seen some amazing sight-reading feats.  However, I was referring to stuff like Sorabji, Finnissy, Ornstein, Violette, some Boulez, etc.  I sincerely doubt whether anyone can sight read some of these composers' music at speed.

[Motrax]

After she gave a concert, Isreali pianist Orli Shaham gave me a great piece of advice - if you can't seem to be able to tackle a difficult passage, change the fingering. About 95% of the time for me, incorrect fingering is what makes a particular section impossible to consistantly play correctly.

In cases where I conciously use a particular fingering, I always write it down in the music. This way, if I later regress into a different fingering (which can happen without you realizing it), you can go back and find the better way quickly.

Another thing I suggest is to use the score whenever you practice, no matter how well you know a piece. Memorizing a piece is no problem, but more often than not, you will look at the music to a piece you've known for months and spot something you missed the first time around. Inner voices and harmonies, subtle dynamic changes, phrasing, and tenutos are just a few of the things which are easy to overlook if you never use the music once you've memorized a piece.

I use a timer and set a goal for myself every day in order to practice. Usually I don't need this sort of thing, but everyone has lousy practice days. On these days, setting a time goal for yourself will ensure that no matter how lousy things seem to be going, you will still work enough for your own satisfaction. In these cases, practice as slowly as possible - rushing will usually make things collapse when you're not in the mood to practice.

Piano is not work. This advice is probably moot on this forum, but many children and adults perceive piano practice as a chore. All it takes is a mental effort in the contrary direction, and suddenly practicing becomes something to look forward to.

Despite what's been said, slow practice always helps with playing faster. Physically, it's easy to hurry a dense stream of notes without missing any, but if you only practice at top speed, you will lose articulation. Slow practice will ensure that you hit every note precisely. Anybody can play fast, but many less can play beautifully.  

My last bit of advice - apples are tasty and give you energy. Eat them before practice, it makes a world of difference.  

-Motrax

[newsgroupeuan]

Also,  another one that came in useful

If I remember correctly:

A pianist once asked Tchaikovsky how he could practice so he would make less mistakes during performances.  The advice given to him was : Play the piece through, if you make no mistakes put one counter on top of the piano desk.  Play it again,  if there are no mistakes add a counter.  If there are mistakes satrt at zero counters.  If you can get 10 counters consistently,  the piece is ready.

It's too infuriating with 10 counters.  I do it with six or seven

[liszmaninopin]

That's interesting advice-but I wonder what kinds of mistakes would warrant going back to zero.  For example, if somebody did that with the Rach 3, and did it perfectly nine times (itself an amazing feat), and they messed up the third mvt. finale on the tenth try, it would be rather ridiculous to say they aren't ready.  I don't think many concert pianists could get the Rach 3 absolutely perfect three times in a row, let alone ten.

[Motrax]

Well, perhaps with a monstrosity (techically speaking) like that, you take it in sections. Hell, playing the cadenza in the first movement 10 times in a row (doesn't matter which you choose) perfectly is pretty astonishing.

However, your will tends to be your limit. If you manage to convince yourself honestly that playing through all of Rach 3 isn't so tough, it really won't be so tough. Not to say you'll play it through perfectly 10 times in a row, but it at least seems a more achievable feat than one which would make most other pianists point and laugh.

[IllBeBach]

I find that memorizing music away from the piano helps me speed things up faster and produce the sound that I want without developing any bad habits than if I slowly read through the music at the piano from the beginning.
I memorize a few difficult measures away from the piano first, then play them at a moderate tempo at the piano.  Often in just a few minutes I can have portions up to tempo.

[liszmaninopin]

I've never been good at memorizing away from the piano.  I've tried it a few times, and I can usually do it, but memorizing away from the piano takes longer for me, than memorizing at the piano.

[IllBeBach]

I think it varies for each person  I used to have the same problem, but then I discovered that it went much faster if I memorized smaller chunks and linked them.  Before I was trying to memorize too much at once.

[Motrax]

How do you memorize away from the piano?

[IllBeBach]

Memorizing a piece away from the piano for me means a number of things:

    1.  Memorizing the score visually--that is, trying to impress on my mind as best I can what the music looks like on the printed page.

    2.  Memorizing formal and harmonic aspects of the piece in question.  This part includes memorizing intervallic patterns and key, time signature and rhythmic motives.  I sometimes use rhythmic syllable vocalizations  to help with particularly tricky rhythmic patterns.  Essentially analize the piece theoretically as thoroughly as you can and commit your analysis to memory.

     4.  During this process I begin to develop an aural memory of the piece.  In part, I imagine what the piece will sound like and decide based on my analysis what sort of emotional/musical effect the composer was aiming at and how best to realize it--which leads on to the next part---

     3.  Preparing the technique mentally.  I often imagine the physical approach to playing the notes of a piece, deciding exactly what sort of technique I want to use to produce the sound I've imagined, including fingering, etc.  This often has to be modified once I actually begin to play the piece.  I find for myself it is easier to do this aspect in short segments.

     That is basically what I do when I memorize away from the piano.  It may seem complicated when stated like this but it really seems natural once you put it into practice as habit.  Also, I organized the process into steps for simplicity, but it doesn't always happen like that.  Each piece is different, and sometimes memorizing seems to happen almost automatically, while other parts of a composition just won't embed themselves on my mind.  A lot of the times several steps happen at once--for example, when I analize the piece often I imagine the sound of the piece simultaneously.  

[rhapsody in orange]

Hi! what exactly is the most secure way to memorize a piece?  
currently i memorize the pieces i play automatically. as in i just have to keep on practising that piece and then it'll automatically commit itself to memory. however, if there's a slip in the passage or a distraction that causes a break in the music, i cant carry on from where i left off (neither can i start from a middle of a piece, unless it's a new section or after a cadential point). any idea how to work on that?

[mound]

Take a look Here

[chopiabin]

Although I'm not sure how practical this is, Alicia DeLaroccha told my teacher to practice everything forte. She also said that it takes more strength to play pianissimo than forte.

A Horowitz secret, also to my teacher: When asked about the Chopin c minor nocturne op.48, Horowitz admitted to leaving out some of the inner voices in order to make the melody stand out more. My teacher was a bit appalled, but Hoorowitz responded: "How else do you keep 40 concertos memorized?"

[Piazzo22]

Although I'm not sure how practical this is, Alicia DeLaroccha told my teacher to practice everything forte. She also said that it takes more strength to play pianissimo than forte.

My teacher says that too. You develop your hand´s muscles (lumbricals and interosseous), you can see that in Martha Argerich hands ;-) .  It´s for pianists that controls the sound all the time and play everything to the bottom of the keys legattissimo (Richter too).

If you see the playing and hands of Mitsuko Uchida, for example, its the complete opposite. She controls the sound by moving less or more the fingers and when playing pianissimo doesn´t get to the bottom. You can compare her hand´s musculature too (they are thin)

[bernhard]

Hi! what exactly is the most secure way to memorize a piece?  
currently i memorize the pieces i play automatically. as in i just have to keep on practising that piece and then it'll automatically commit itself to memory. however, if there's a slip in the passage or a distraction that causes a break in the music, i cant carry on from where i left off (neither can i start from a middle of a piece, unless it's a new section or after a cadential point). any idea how to work on that?

There are several threads dealing with memorisation.

Try these three:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1090647299;start=0
(memory tips)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1084678191;start=0
(specifically referring to French suites)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1093988975
(see reply #22)

You can also try these books:

For the history of the “Art of Memory” – a fascinating subject, the best reference id Frances Yates “The Art of Memory”. This is an academic book written by a historian. It is not really about tips to improve memory.

For  piano applications, the only 2 books I came across are:

Walter Gieseking & Karl Leimer – Piano technique (Dover). Gieseking would only go to the piano after he had memorised the whole piece working solely on the score. This book explains this kind of mental practice with many examples. (But be warned, it is hard mental work!)

Lilias Mackinnon – “Music by heart” (Oxford University Press). This may be out of print. The psychological theory of memory is probably outdated (my edition is from 1944), but the tips and methods to memorise music are all usable.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[donjuan]

I like to make a practice schedule since Im such a crap sightreader still- count the number of measures in the piece, set a date in the future when you would like to have learned the piece by, divide number of measures by number of practice periods (days, weeks, etc.) so you are, for example learning 25 measures per week.  Try to beat your schedule and take advantage of extra time you have to move forward and do the next weeks measures if you finish early.  This is a motivating and focussed method I use to learn new music because I am inclined to let it slip and forget about it (I easily get interested in other things).  This way, I force myself to learn, and it's fun as well.

I have found having a hot drink such as decaf tea or coffee before practice sessions or performances helps to stay comfortable, as well as washing hands in warm water (not hot!).

I like to use a spotlight on the keyboard - turn off the room light and turn on the spotlight.  It helps me stay focused on the keys and sound the piano produces.  Otherwise, I look around the room while I practice or perform and am distracted from the music.

donjuan

[Brian Healey]

HANON IS THE WORK OF THE DEVIL!!!!

This is true, but a little misleading. Any excercises like this, be it Hanon or Czerny, have the potential to cause injury when performed improperly and overdone. I had a student once who developed tendonitis, and since nothing I gave him should have done this, I asked him about his practice routine. He said he practiced Hanon for an hour a day! First of all, nothing like that should be practiced for that long. Fifteen minutes per day, maximum, is all you need. Secondly, if you don't have a teacher to make sure that you're properly executing each exercise, then you're just begging for an injury, and It doesn't matter whether it's Hanon or anything else.

Getting back to the subject, something I do when I'm close to mastering a piece is pretend that I'm in the audience. I try to pay as little attention as I can to physically playing the piece, instead I try to just observe as my hands do all the work. I even try to let my mind wander to unrelated things. Try doing math probems while playing. If you hit a part that trips you up, then it means you have to practice that section more, and then try it again.

[super_ardua]

I practice my piece in as many ways as possible

[Piazzo22]

HANON IS THE WORK OF THE DEVIL!!!!

This is true, but a little misleading. Any excercises like this, be it Hanon or Czerny, have the potential to cause injury when performed improperly and overdone. I had a student once who developed tendonitis, and since nothing I gave him should have done this, I asked him about his practice routine. He said he practiced Hanon for an hour a day! First of all, nothing like that should be practiced for that long. Fifteen minutes per day, maximum, is all you need. Secondly, if you don't have a teacher to make sure that you're properly executing each exercise, then you're just begging for an injury, and It doesn't matter whether it's Hanon or anything else.

Getting back to the subject, something I do when I'm close to mastering a piece is pretend that I'm in the audience. I try to pay as little attention as I can to physically playing the piece, instead I try to just observe as my hands do all the work. I even try to let my mind wander to unrelated things. Try doing math probems while playing. If you hit a part that trips you up, then it means you have to practice that section more, and then try it again.

I´ve never understood how people can hurt theirselves playing the piano.
How do they play?  Banging the keys?

[super_ardua]

I have injured myself once.  It comes from bad posture.  Eg. If you sit too close to the piano you put tendons under strain.

[donjuan]

I have injured myself doing endless octave passages like in Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No.6.  I had to stop working on it and will continue when I develop proper octave technique.  Otherwise, who knows what will happen to my wrists and tendons?   Better safe than sorry..
donjuan

[Brian Healey]

I´ve never understood how people can hurt theirselves playing the piano.
How do they play?   Banging the keys?

I know what you mean. The physical act of playing the piano seems simple enough (if only it were simple), but we're not talking about jarring injuries caused by a single event. We're talking slowly-developing injuries over time. When done correctly, piano playing can actually be theraputic for the hands, wrists, and forearms, but when done improperly, repetitive stress injuries can develope over time. It's similar to how people who type a lot frequently get carpal tunnel syndrome by not typing in an ergonomic manner.