Chopin Ballade 2 in F major Op 38

[lelle]

Hello everyone! I started examining this ballade on my own during December mostly to see if it was something I might be able to handle (this has always been my favourite ballade), then I got serious about learning it and started to work on it with my teacher in January.

It's probably one of the most difficult pieces I've learned so far, both from a technical and interpretative standpoint. It's awesomely fun to play but far from perfect! My goal is of course to get this to performance standard, and even though the vast amount of talent displayed by other posters here is humbling, I'm hoping I could get some feedback on what's good and bad, how I should continue to work on this piece, etc.

Thanks

[birba]

I can tell you like this piece.  You have a great affinity for it and you've really conquered most of the difficulties.  It's sort of fallen out of grace, so to speak, as it's not played nearly as often as the nos. 1 and 4.  or even no. 3.  (Maybe it's the fiendish coda!)  I enjoyed your playing very much.
Just a few suggestions.  Think of the opening statement as a sort of chorale.  Let's hear more of the inner notes along with that exquisite melody.  Just before the first presto, don't wait so long.  Hold the chord and the last and maybe count two and then "attacca" without any silence between.  Don't slow down so much on the trills before the coda - just a slight stentando.  You do the coda very well.  It's just that it has to go a bit faster.  Don't dally on the roll and appoggiatura of the next-to-the-last chord.  Make it simple.  Like the theme, itself.
Really very very good!

[becky8898]

Hi Lelle: i liked this a lot.  After someone as smart as Birba already commented , ill only add one thing to me that could have been changed. On the faster passages , the left hand to me didnt quite stand out enough on its own.  To much right  hand , maybe.  Or its just the recording or your not on a grand, or my hearing needs to be checked. Anyway nice nice performance of this Ballade and I am glad you posted it.

Cheers, Becky

[51072]

Birba - I agree with your suggestions, however I think it would help lelle if you explained why your suggestions make sense to you. Interpretation is more than pausing before a specific note, etc. The pianist should know exactly why they are pausing.

Very nice playing, lelle. I'm personally very glad to see that you think it is far from perfect. There is always room for improvement, especially with a work as difficult as this one.

[birba]

You're right.  But it's so difficult to explain in written words certain things.  that's why I like to do videos.  But I'm always leery about offending people or appearing like a show-off.   

[pianisten1989]

Well played! Because of what s_c_p, the "almost concert standard" scared the hell out of me, but you're doing fine! You could easily play this in a concert!

Here's some things I noticed:
The first 2 bars is some sort of introduction, and you did that very well, though, the last note in bar 2 - Don't do a diminuendo, but a crescendo, to get it going. If you do a dim., it will sound weird when it starts in bar 3. It's kind of a slow dance, and if you listen to other dances (not only by Chopin) you'll hear that almost every introduction ends with a slight cresc.
That was basically what I felt in the slow part.
I would take so much time in the smorzando. I think you did a nice rit to the last bar, but then you took it some more steps, and it became too much. Right before the presto, I actually would do it with a short pause before. Chopin wrote the fermata on the bar line, after the "up-pedal"-sign. Like the absolute peace before the storm. But not too long, that will kill the tension.

Unlike Becky, I don't think your left hand was a problem, I could hear it just fine. Though, I think it was too little character, and too little cresc. It's like the storm coming right at you, in high speed, and then, just as quickly, disappears, and then come back again, and so on.
So you'll to go back to... not piano, but at least back to mf, and to a big cresc. in the up-going motion. In general, I think you do too little of the dynamics. It might be the piano or the camera, but think about it!
I liked the fact that you still played the left hand louder than the right in bar 54. Not many pianists does that!
I really wouldn't do an "echo" in bar 62. First, Chopin didn't write it, and second, the accent in bar 62 would be pointless. I would keep the dynamics right to first beat in bar 63 (Chopin did write the slur to that chord, so I assume he wanted some sort of connection), and THEN I would go straight to p and crescendo up to ff. And, you'll need more time once you're in ff, in bar 69. He actually wrote a pause in the right hand, which is the first in the whole piece. I might be over doing it, but it actually makes more sense if you take some time to do that skip, and you'll hear the two different harmonies in the left hand if you take some more time. Then I liked how you went back to the first theme again, though I wouldn't do as much rit as you did.

I have to practise now! I write more later!

But really, good job! It's a difficult piece, and you've got basically all the technical stuff down.

[pianisten1989]

There, the rest of the ballade!:

Be sure to stay in tempo. Now you're a bit back and forth. You don't have to do more than what he wrote.
Then, in the stretto, you really have to keep the rhythm, even though you play it faster. (I wouldn't play it That much faster, but that's just my taste)
Then in bar 112 - I guess it's the recording, cause it's impossible not to play louder there, but really play ff. And no dim. It's a sf in the end, go for that. Then it's piano. Then it's the same.

This is just another taste-issue, so that might be stupid. But in bar 164, there is an accent on the e. I would take an inch more time, right before that.

And as Birba said, don't do such big rit on the trills. Just a tiny bit slower on the last one, but that's it. And I like it with a small hole between that and the coda. No slur, and a 'no ped'-mark, so somehow I think Chopin wanted that too.

And the horrible coda! It's really difficult to get in tempo, but it has to go a bit faster, kind of crazy.
But just a few technical advice:
It's great that you don't start from the key, but you also need a completely free wrist, like bouncing a ball.
Practise: The first two, the wrist is quite low. The next 2, the wrist is a bit higher, and on the last 2, you have a high wrist. Then try to go an inch higher on every note, making a very natural motion. Also really exaggerate all motions - on some places the right hand goes to the right, up the keyboard, and the left goes straight up. It's really difficult, but once you learn it, you can use it almost everywhere, and it makes everything way easier.

But good job, and good luck with this great piece!

[lelle]

Thanks for the feedback guys! A lot of useful stuff in here! Long post inc:

Birba:

Just a few suggestions.  Think of the opening statement as a sort of chorale.  Let's hear more of the inner notes along with that exquisite melody.  

I'll have to examine that, maybe it can be the next item on my "technical difficulty to conquer" list lolol. It's incredibly hard to create the phrases and make the melody sing like I want it to, so I've mainly focused on the outer voices so far, plus, when when my concentration is good enough, some select inner voice passages that look like they're specifically meant to be heard.

Just before the first presto, don't wait so long.  Hold the chord and the last and maybe count two and then "attacca" without any silence between.  

I agree with this and it's something I'll have to work on. Currently I use all that time to mentally prepare my self for the difficult Presto. I've found that I just screw up that initial arpeggio if I just throw myself into that section before being ready! But I agree, the Presto con fuoco should be an unrelenting storm that bursts out of that final peaceful harmony of the Andantino.

Don't slow down so much on the trills before the coda - just a slight stentando.  You do the coda very well.  It's just that it has to go a bit faster.

I have to agree now when you mention it that I slow down a bit to much. My reasoning is that there needs to be some kind of ritardando to get the tempo in line with the next section, or the transition sounds a bit awkward. But I do it too much right now, I agree!

Really very very good!

Thanks!

Becky:

Hi Lelle: i liked this a lot.  After someone as smart as Birba already commented , ill only add one thing to me that could have been changed. On the faster passages , the left hand to me didnt quite stand out enough on its own.  To much right  hand , maybe.  Or its just the recording or your not on a grand, or my hearing needs to be checked. Anyway nice nice performance of this Ballade and I am glad you posted it.

Cheers, Becky

Hi Becky, thanks! That is actually an intentional interpretative choice of mine. I disagree with interpretations where the left hand is treated like some sort of melody and the right hand seems to be held back to a dynamic range around mezzo forte (I exaggarate, but you get my point!). To me, the right and left hand make up some kind of musical whole rather than giving any of them disproportionate importance. Both hands start in fortissimo and are equally important!

Pianisten1989:

Well played! Because of what s_c_p, the "almost concert standard" scared the hell out of me, but you're doing fine! You could easily play this in a concert!

Haha lol! I wish my playing of the ballade was as fine as his. Thanks!

The first 2 bars is some sort of introduction, and you did that very well, though, the last note in bar 2 - Don't do a diminuendo, but a crescendo, to get it going. If you do a dim., it will sound weird when it starts in bar 3. It's kind of a slow dance, and if you listen to other dances (not only by Chopin) you'll hear that almost every introduction ends with a slight cresc.
That was basically what I felt in the slow part.

I think I disagree with this. In my editions (I use Alfred Cortot's edition and one from IMSLP) there is a slur that covers the repeated c's of the first two measures, and ends on the quarter note on the fourth beat in the second measure. I think this means that this simple little introduction is an element in itself that introduces the piece, and should be phrased as such. It's not completely disconnected, of course, but it's not a part of the following melody's phrase either. If you'd play a crescendo, it would sound more like the introduction was connected to and an element of the melody in measure 3 and onwards, and in that case the first slur would have extended from the first c in bar 1 to the ending of the first melody's phrase (the red slur is how I'd hear it if I played the red crescendo):

Unlike Becky, I don't think your left hand was a problem, I could hear it just fine. Though, I think it was too little character, and too little cresc. It's like the storm coming right at you, in high speed, and then, just as quickly, disappears, and then come back again, and so on.
So you'll to go back to... not piano, but at least back to mf, and to a big cresc. in the up-going motion. In general, I think you do too little of the dynamics. It might be the piano or the camera, but think about it!

The piano is at least partially to blame   It has a pretty narrow upper limit of it's dynamic range, so it's hard (impossible) to play those really sonorous fortissimos that this piece demands in places. I agree with your ideas for the left hand. What I'm hoping to do as pronounced as possible is something like this (this is supposed to be the left hand in the first measure of the presto, with the dưnamics I want to use for the octaves below):

a----e----b----c
a----e----b----c
ff---mf-cresc.--ff

I really wouldn't do an "echo" in bar 62. First, Chopin didn't write it, and second, the accent in bar 62 would be pointless.

I got this idea from Cortot actually (which might explain why it doesn't sound too credible when referencing the score, lol). There is a poco dim. present in both my editions though, which at least suggests that the second repetition of the upwards going figure in m. 61-62 should be played softer than the first. I don't think the diminuendo is present in Chopin's autograph score, but it does make sense, since without it you would have nowhere to begin the crescendo to the climax in measure 69-70 from. My reasoning for why the "echo" makes sense is to give the right hand some space to ease out the transition between measure 62 and 63. I've heard some recordings where this transition sounds very awkward, it sort of just "happens" without making any sense, and I wanted to try to find a way to avoid that myself.

And the horrible coda! It's really difficult to get in tempo, but it has to go a bit faster, kind of crazy.
But just a few technical advice:
It's great that you don't start from the key, but you also need a completely free wrist, like bouncing a ball.
Practise: The first two, the wrist is quite low. The next 2, the wrist is a bit higher, and on the last 2, you have a high wrist. Then try to go an inch higher on every note, making a very natural motion. Also really exaggerate all motions - on some places the right hand goes to the right, up the keyboard, and the left goes straight up. It's really difficult, but once you learn it, you can use it almost everywhere, and it makes everything way easier.

Wow thanks! I'll try that out as soon as I can. I actually asked my teacher on specific technical advice for this section, since I can get a little tense here, but she was kinda vague on what I should do, unfortunately.

Really, thanks a lot for giving such detailed feedback. It's this kind of thing that's invaluable when working on a piece!

[pianisten1989]

about the first 2 bars - The way he wrote it, is the way I meant. Since the last c starts on a slur, you can't do a dim.

[lelle]

hm, not sure what you mean. Does your edition have slurs the same way as the image I linked in the post above?

I'm always open for more feedback if any other listeners happen to pass by this thread

[pianisten1989]

No, mine has got one long slur. But you see. You can't start a slur with a diminuendo. If one slur ends, and then a new one starts, you can't really start the new slur softer than you end the first one. Does that make any sense?

Btw, is there technical exercises in Cortot's ediotion? I have his etudes, and they are gold! If it's the same in the ballades, I'm so getting them!