Worldclass Pianists with bad pitch?

[sevencircles]

Which ones of the worldclass pianists haven´t even got relative pitch?

It´s indeed possible to be an amazing classical pianists without perfect or even relative pitch.

[nyonyo]

I really think it is possible to be an excellent pianist without being able to recognize pitch or even relative pitch. As a sculptor, one can be color blind, as long as he is able to shape the object.

Claudio Abbado does  not have perfect pitch...

[sevencircles]

I really think it is possible to be an excellent pianist without being able to recognize pitch or even relative pitch. As a sculptor, one can be color blind, as long as he is able to shape the object.

Claudio Abbado does  not have perfect pitch...

Perhaps he doesn´t even have relative pitch

Perfect pitch is really an overrated skill for classical pianists.

There are so many other things that are more important.

[pianist1976]

Which ones of the worldclass pianists haven´t even got relative pitch?

I know no one and I don't think exists or existed a world class pianist who hadn't a good musical hearing, no matter it is absolute or relative.

It´s indeed possible to be an amazing classical pianists without perfect or even relative pitch.

In my opinion, no. I agree that "perfect pitch" (or "absolute hearing") is not a requirement at all but someone with a "bad pitch" (it is, a bad music hearing) will never understand what it's inside the music, the interval relationship and fundamental stuff like that. Playing an instrument without knowing (or at least intuiting, there can be people talented with no or bad training) what's inside is, in my humble opinion, closer to typewriting that to artistry.

[gyzzzmo]

Id would be insane if a serious pianist didnt even have relative pitch.

[m1469]

Since I believe the question is actually whether or not relative and/or perfect pitch gives a pianist an "edge" over others without it, I would be curious to know how many pianists who do have this "edge" don't turn out to be worldclass?  I wonder which number is higher.

[omar_roy]

how many pianists who do have this "edge" don't turn out to be worldclass?  

Probably lots.  Probably the same, percentage wise, as those that don't have it.

Perfect pitch offers no advantage to pianists because we don't have to worry about intonation.  I've never felt that I was at any disadvantage not having perfect pitch because I've developed a good relative pitch through Solfege classes. 

Most world class pianists have been trained at some conservatory or another.  Theory and Solfege classes are standard fare at such institutions, so it would be hard for me to believe if a certain pianist didn't have relative pitch, either through ear training or mere experience from playing so much.

[brogers70]

Most world class pianists have been trained at some conservatory or another.  Theory and Solfege classes are standard fare at such institutions, so it would be hard for me to believe if a certain pianist didn't have relative pitch, either through ear training or mere experience from playing so much.

I agree, it's hard to imagine that you could be a good pianist without good relative pitch, as demanded by solfege and the like. I do wonder what percentage of world class pianists can look at a new score and hear it in their head at something close to tempo. That's a skill that goes beyond ordinary solfege or sight singing.

[becky8898]

Hi Brogers , Im not a world class pianist , but I can do that.  For almost as Long as I can remember if I look at a score I know what it sounds like in my head.  I can also  go the other way.  If I hear a melody with a simple chord structure I can go right over to the piano and play it at once.  Personally i cant believe you would be a world class pianist with out that kind of ability.  The amount of music to be memorized  is so large and must be done so quickly I just cant see being a world class artist today with out this ability to hear music in your  brain.  You see sometimes I forget the notes but I know what the music sounds like so I can continue. I hope im making sense. And no I have no idea how I do that. Up until I was 9 , I thought everyone could.

Cheers, Becky 

[brogers70]

Hi Brogers , Im not a world class pianist ,

Cheers, Becky 

Maybe not yet, but you will be.

[ladypianist]

Being a world class Artist, means world class Travel. There is simply no choice in the matter if you are on the concert stage.  That means hours and hours of time spent flying and in hotel lobbies, or hotel rooms, without access to a piano. Simply to much time to waste.  Many times the maestro has gotten you a copy of the score on how he intends to conduct. You really need to be prepared before the first rehearsal , or in some cases a private meeting with the Maestro. 

Also , no matter how full your repertoire there are new pieces that are presented to you all the time . It is just not practical given that the day has only 24 hours that you can spend enough actual time at the piano to deal with all your obligations and music you encounter.  Much of it by need must be done in your head.

I couldnt imagine how you could possible be on that level as a pianist and not have a wonderfully developed ear.  When I was a young girl studying at Moscow Conservatory with Professor Sofronitsky all students where expected to be able to hear a score in there  head. 

Hopefully that gives a little perspective to this subject. 

Hopes to all that your musical voice in your mind improves. Lady Pianist.

[sevencircles]

Id would be insane if a serious pianist didnt even have relative pitch.

I friend told me that Alfred Brendel doesn´t have relative pitch. Brendel claims that he is a bad sightreader too 

But sightreading skills are relative as well. 

[pianisten1989]

There are always exceptions. Brendel is also basically self-taught, but not many people would say you could be one of the greatest if you didn't have a teacher.

Ofc you CAN become a worldclass pianist with a sucky pitch, but everything get's way way more difficult.

[kevinr]

I vaguely remember reading once that when Barenboim started moving into conducting he would often ask his players' advice when dealing with intonation issues, suggesting that he didn't fully trust his own relative pitch.

If true I guess it says something good about his integrity.

[m1469]

So it seems that neither perfect pitch nor relative pitch, nor being able to hear a score at sight and great sightreading skills, none of this actually is the golden path to worldclass playing and artistry.  And, anyway, much of the time I feel like all of this talk is entirely a different language to me altogether.

I think that whatever you are talking about, maybe it doesn't win out when it comes to something else within us which determines our lives.  I'll tell you what though, I can grip intensity and the fact still remains, in my opinion, that the only defining factor in our own lives and musicianship is the being that we happen to embody.

As for me, I think it's quite nice to sit within a deep forest and hear the murmurs of the mountains and trees, even from ages ago, and to be in an ocean and hear another world and ecosystem.

[ongaku_oniko]

Wow, how do you guys "hear music in your head by looking at the score"?

For me, I HAVE TO have heard the music a few times before being able to attempt playing it... I have trouble even just getting the tempo in my head for something I've never heard before. How do you train this skill? I'm really interested. I thought it was a myth that people can do that or start playing after just hearing something once without a score... something that only happens in anime like nodame cantabile.

By the way, if anyone here watches anime (I doubt it, but who knows?), how accurate is nodame cantabile, in term of the musical stuff? Like how they can suddenly improv a rach 2 duet...

[pianowolfi]

So it seems that neither perfect pitch nor relative pitch, nor being able to hear a score at sight and great sightreading skills, none of this actually is the golden path to worldclass playing and artistry.  And, anyway, much of the time I feel like all of this talk is entirely a different language to me altogether.

I think that whatever you are talking about, maybe it doesn't win out when it comes to something else within us which determines our lives.  I'll tell you what though, I can grip intensity and the fact still remains, in my opinion, that the only defining factor in our own lives and musicianship is the being that we happen to embody.

As for me, I think it's quite nice to sit within a deep forest and hear the murmurs of the mountains and trees, even from ages ago, and to be in an ocean and hear another world and ecosystem.

Yes You can grip intensity and the being that you happen to embody "Even from ages ago"

[m1469]

Yes You can grip intensity and the being that you happen to embody "Even from ages ago"

But, the imprint of my being has always been just me.  It has always been only mine, just as anybody else's has been only theirs alone.  I feel like I'm supposed to have been this other person in this other lifetime, or maybe other people, but I haven't been.  I have been always only just plain old me, no matter how it looks, and I'm still just plain old me.  And, I guess I thought I would find people with whom I can relate, and I just feel like people are treating me as though my me-ness is some kind of a joke and game.  Lately it's been just only distracting for me, and if that is the goal, then I guess it's acheived.  What is it that I'm "supposed" to be realizing about myself, that is obvious to other people and not to me?  I'm sorry, I just don't understand and I didn't think that this is what playing is about.  I thought there was something higher and something more.

[pianowolfi]

But, the imprint of my being has always been just me.  It has always been only mine, just as anybody else's has been only theirs alone.  I feel like I'm supposed to have been this other person in this other lifetime, or maybe other people, but I haven't been.  I have been always only just plain old me, no matter how it looks, and I'm still just plain old me.  And, I guess I thought I would find people with whom I can relate, and I just feel like people are treating me as though my me-ness is some kind of a joke and game.  Lately it's been just only distracting for me, and if that is the goal, then I guess it's acheived.  What is it that I'm "supposed" to be realizing about myself, that is obvious to other people and not to me?  I'm sorry, I just don't understand and I didn't think that this is what playing is about.  I thought there was something higher and something more.

Joke and game??? I am very sorry that you feel like this...
I don't know of a thing that is "obvious to other people and not to you".
I don't know of anything that you "are supposed to"...
I guess I do or don't understand as much as you, frankly.
 

[m1469]

I guess I do or don't understand as much as you, frankly.

Well, logically speaking, there is no way to know this for sure for either of us, I guess  .  At least not overall about everything!  But, there is something specific about resonance, for sure.

[pianowolfi]

Well, logically speaking, there is no way to know this for sure for either of us, I guess  .  At least not overall about everything!  But, there is something specific about resonance, for sure.

Yes

[pianowolfi]

Well, logically speaking, there is no way to know this for sure for either of us, I guess  .  At least not overall about everything!  But, there is something specific about resonance, for sure.

Well yeah, sharing "resonances" via a screen, with twenty-something letters, has been frustrating and disturbing all the way through since I started it. Nevertheless, some astonishing things have happened through it. I have happened to share my very core and soul through it, for a while, and some five or six people understood it. Perhaps there are more. I can't say. Perhaps there are 2000. I don't know, I really have no idea. And actually I don't care anymore.
What counts is to do. Practicing, playing, exploring, endeavouring, searching the soul, thinking. And so on.

[m1469]

Well yeah, sharing "resonances" via a screen, with twenty-something letters, has been frustrating and disturbing all the way through since I started it. Nevertheless, some astonishing things have happened through it. I have happened to share my very core and soul through it, for a while, and some five or six people understood it. Perhaps there are more. I can't say. Perhaps there are 2000. I don't know, I really have no idea. And actually I don't care anymore.
What counts is to do. Practicing, playing, exploring, endeavouring, searching the soul, thinking. And so on.

I guess I had a little bit of a freak out.  I no longer believe that this place was randomly created by a couple of random people, and then magically a number of musically knowledgable people began showing up here.  I feel often that there is much more going on here than I know, and sometimes that seems to affect me in varying ways.  Regardless, though, I agree that some astonishing things have taken place as a result of its existence.  And, I am personally extremely grateful for so many things and people reltaed to the fact that it does exist and that I happened to come upon it when I did.

Right now though, my perspectives are changing drastically in life (about life) and sometimes I can't keep up with them, exactly.  And, part of that is feeling, not exactly confused, but in need of redefining certain things with piano.  And, I spend all day everyday either practicing or teaching piano (and a little singing) and you could say it's my life, so when something about that shifts, it seems to affect my whole sense about life, and then there is an after-affect of that, as well, when I realize that piano is my whole life and when I am feeling strangely about piano that I am feeling strangely about life.  But, my birthday is in a little over a month and that might have something to do with it all, too  .

What I am realizing is that there is a definitely a price to pay for every gain we decide to make in life.  Occasionally, I feel like I have a choice in whether or not I will keep progressing pianistically, or whether I will more or less stay where I'm at.  I don't even know where I'm at, exactly, but I'm also not even sure what my options are.  If my option is to stay in this same house, teaching and practicing and having no life at all besides that for the rest of my life, and that this is all my efforts will ever amount to, then I wouldn't intentionally choose that.  Yes, it's important to keep doing, but I suppose I'm feeling that I need it to keep taking on perhaps greater form, it can't be just me in my house and nothing more.  It just can't be.  That's not me.  If it's a sacrifice for a time then I'm willing to pay that, but I'm not willing to choose it as all my life and musicianship is ever going to amount to.

That's the utterance inside of me lately, which has a resonance, which is my form of perfect pitch.  I didn't intend to write this at all, let alone in this thread, but hey, it's where my life is at right now.

[pianowolfi]

I've just recently had a freak out because of a different forum (A German speaking Forum) I quit there for good because I am not willing to run in a hamster wheel that some 4 or 5 dominant people designed for their co-forumers. But for sure this place here is not comparable, that other one is just crazy, in my opinion. After this experience Pianostreet seems like a paradise to me, lol  

[m1469]

I've just recently had a freak out because of a different forum (A German speaking Forum) I quit there for good because I am not willing to run in a hamster wheel that some 4 or 5 dominant people designed for their co-forumers. But for sure this place here is not comparable, that other one is just crazy, in my opinion. After this experience Pianostreet seems like a paradise to me, lol  

Sure, it's different, I guess, depending on which side of it you are on.  It's a choice in character and how people choose to spend time and effort, I guess.  Perhaps some people on that German forum haven't got any other imagination.  I will say for sure that I appreciate individuals who can relate with me on other terms than that, and that is an understatement for some settings of my life.  Today when I was cooking some onions I thought to myself "onions may have many layers, but they can also be translucent," but transparancy for people can feel like a big scary thing, I think.  I do find that when I hear a performance with a translucent character, it's really in a league of its own.  The same can be said for a musical learning environment, actually.

[sevencircles]

Heard some keybord solos with Vitalij Kuprij, he bends out of tune with the pitchbend pretty often even on studio recordings 

He is another good example of a world class pianist wihout relative pitch I guess.

I think he should avoid pitchbending actually 

[pianisten1989]

wait, what? Pitchbending? That's like.. pop? =/

[pianist1976]

Even the possibility that a worldclass pianist can lack a good ear (no matter it is absolute or relative) is a complete nonsense.

[sevencircles]

wait, what? Pitchbending? That's like.. pop? =/

It´s really fun to play keyboard with a pitchbend actually. You can play classical music with a pitchbend to of course. You can even play with a vibrato  if you are good at it 

[Derek]

Talk to most any keyboardist before the piano was invented (you may need a time machine for this) and you'll find pitch bending has been around since the late 1300's or so, and it was even easier to do than on a keyboard such as Vitalij Kuprij plays. You don't need a pitch bend wheel or strip--you just press a little harder on a key on a clavichord and it bends the string =)

[sashaco]

Frankly, this question is just plain goofy.  You can't play the piano without  "relative" pitch, or any other instrument for that matter.  Even a percussionist needs to hear different pitches.  The good news is there are very few people incapable of hearing pitches, and the ability, like most, is developed through practice.  The truly tone-deaf, and I believe I've only met one such person in fifty years, may not be able to improve, but everyone else can.

[ignaceii]

I'm becoming 50 this month.
Self-taught mainly. I became technically better lately, but health got worse and worse last years.
So, what about pitch ?
The music still sounds for me deep inside, and it still feels great, even if the muscles give up afterwards.
I'm not the worldclass pianist, just a piano player trying to stay in the world.
I adore Brendel for his art beyond music, and inside the music.
Emotions drive the senses.
Sometimes I think of quitting, but I can't. I have given too much, and it is still the passion of my life.
But anyway, I think every musician is a worldclass musician, at least within his own world.
And I adore Michelangeli, who only played for himself.
Pitch, pedal,...  I play without.
So what.
I'm still here.

[sevencircles]

Frankly, this question is just plain goofy.  You can't play the piano without  "relative" pitch, or any other instrument for that matter.

By relative pitch I mean that you can tell that the intervall you are hearing is a 12:th or whatever.  In other words if you hear one note and play a c for instance then you can identify the other note without any doubt.

I am certain that many great musicians can´t do this 

Vitalij Kuprij can play for instance Rachmaninov´s piano concertos with an orchestra really convincing. But he can (propably) not hear that he is bending out of tune with a pitchbend since he does it so frequently on his studo recordings.

[pianist1976]

Sorry, I don't get the purpose of underestimating wordclass people by assuming they haven't got abilities not only they undoubtedly have but any worthy musician must have. Of course any great musician can recognize an interval! It's a nonsense thinking otherwise! Do you think Zimerman, Argerich, Pollini, etc. (to name a few big alive pianists at random) are only able to type the notes they learnt from the score? do you think they are not able to distinguish by hearing an augmented fourth from a minor third? Aren't they able to transcribe to paper or play to the piano by ear a melody they heard? (I personally think that very talented people like those can do more complex things than that).

The difference between relative and absolute hearing is that those with a relative ear, if they aren't given a reference note, have more possibilities to transport the given melody.

A worldclass without those minimum aural capabilities is nonsense.

[sevencircles]

A worldclass without those minimum aural capabilities is nonsense.

It all depends on your definition of worldclass. A pianist without relative pitch might be able to do the most convincing performances of the most demanding concertos and solo pieces out there.

[sashaco]

I dislike the practice of many respondents on this site who are quite unpleasant to those with whom they disagree, but I can't think of any way to say pleasantly, sevencircles, that you are out of your mind.  "World class" is of course a more subjective phrase than it appears, but I think we can take it that it refers to players who attract large audiences, whether audiences of devoted music lovers or others.  There are NO, ZERO, NOT ANY, HAKUNA players like that who can't hear pitches, and if you can hear pitches, the years of playing required to be even a competent musician will certainly endow anyone with pretty damn good relative pitch.  Go down to a nursery school and you'll find that just about every kid can sing Frere Jacques with fairly accurate intervals, even if some have a bit of difficulty finding the first note. 
How can you even imagine a human who can't tell a fourth from a fifth having the patience to slave away at masses of music he/she can't even hear?  Is every error corrected by visually checking finger position? What's the motivation, anyway?  You have a better chance of playing pro basketball on one leg than you do of playing the piano professionally if you can't hear pitches.
I cling to the hope that you are merely a provocateur, hoping to get silly folk like me to lose their cool- I would prefer that humiliation to the thought that anyone could believe what you claim to.

With great affection, Sasha

[sevencircles]

You have a better chance of playing pro basketball on one leg than you do of playing the piano professionally if you can't hear pitches.

By relative pitch I mean identifying all the intervalls (in the traditional western scale) with the help of a reference tone.  Having a sense of pitch like if you say "this is either a fourth or a fifth!" isn´t really relative pitch is it?

[pianisten1989]

I dislike the practice of many respondents on this site who are quite unpleasant to those with whom they disagree, but I can't think of any way to say pleasantly, sevencircles, that you are out of your mind.  "World class" is of course a more subjective phrase than it appears, but I think we can take it that it refers to players who attract large audiences, whether audiences of devoted music lovers or others.  There are NO, ZERO, NOT ANY, HAKUNA players like that who can't hear pitches, and if you can hear pitches, the years of playing required to be even a competent musician will certainly endow anyone with pretty damn good relative pitch.  Go down to a nursery school and you'll find that just about every kid can sing Frere Jacques with fairly accurate intervals, even if some have a bit of difficulty finding the first note. 
How can you even imagine a human who can't tell a fourth from a fifth having the patience to slave away at masses of music he/she can't even hear?  Is every error corrected by visually checking finger position? What's the motivation, anyway?  You have a better chance of playing pro basketball on one leg than you do of playing the piano professionally if you can't hear pitches.
I cling to the hope that you are merely a provocateur, hoping to get silly folk like me to lose their cool- I would prefer that humiliation to the thought that anyone could believe what you claim to.

With great affection, Sasha

Oh, snap!

[lelle]

What about not being able to always accurately tell what keys and intervals one is hearing but still being able to instantly hear when one plays a wrong note? It still isn't relative or perfect pitch but the pianist can hear and recognize the correct notes from the wrong ones anyway!

[ignaceii]

This will be my last post on this site.
It is as with a lot of other forums out there on the internet.
I'll be brief.
Too many topics lead to provocative discussions like this one. Why ?
Analyse the topic :
Worldclass pianists with bad pitch ?

Pianist , ok : One who plays the piano.
Worldclass, :  What is worldclass : subjective
bad :  What is bad : subjective
pitch : What is pitch : subjective +

1 out of 4 :   Kill the topic.

We learn absolutely nothing from these discussions. Waste of time.
Go and read a book, and talk to friends about it if you like.
A tsunami on topics, where you can't tell the difference between the relevant and the non-relevant.

Goodbye .

Thanks m1469 for your wonderful comments.

[m1469]

Well yeah, sharing "resonances" via a screen, with twenty-something letters (...)

Yes.  I am indeed very grateful still though, for the fact that it's possible because it has made a huge difference in my life, including many individuals I have "met" here and who have remained as friends online, and then the occasion to know in person individuals, as well.  More and more, I realize that my comment regarding thinking I could "find people with whom I can relate" is definitely not an isolated comment and comes through all years of my life, actually.  I love the idea of sharing the beauty of music with others, in music making and in discussion, as well as anytime I am even slightly given a glimpse into another's musical and lifetime journey in those ways.  I feel that in many ways my heart has often been open here and that has always been my choosing, and I think that there have been some very generous individuals here who have shared more with me than perhaps they feel was of value for them, I don't know.  

Sometimes I do forget, though, that perhaps as much as I can feel limited by what can or can't be communicated over a forum or even in online chat and even with webcam, as much as I feel I can't quite see in others, that even if I feel as though I am taking risks in showing my more inner self, that it's still not necessarily communicating my actual heart to others in a way they are willing to trust.  Most people don't know my tone of voice, most people don't know my facial expressions and body language, and those things can actually account for such a great deal.  No matter what, it is still very different to be inside the same room with an individual, peering at music together under those circumstances.  Sometimes I think I almost forget in a way, that this can never quite be that, even if this is something unique and potentially great in its own way.

Ultimately, we have each had our seeming histories as being ourselves and we each have things that we thrive on, things that make us happy and sad, philosophies and whatever parts of our being which hurt over those things in our lives that have hurt us.  We each have our own things to protect within ourselves and our lives, and often our best intentions can be misunderstood or sometimes even not helpful just because of the fact that we are all different and we each have our own way to go, to some degree.  I don't believe though that people should give up on each other.

I do appreciate honest efforts which I do recognize have often been made on my behalf and I appreciate seeing them being made on behalf of others, as well.  I appreciate that there is a site like this, dedicated to music and piano and that there are individuals here who truly do love those things.  I can tell that much time, thought, and effort has been put into this site and it is something to be appreciated, for sure.  The truth is, then there's still the rest of my life to deal with, just as with any of us, and I think I need to be doing a better job of that.

[pianowolfi]

m1469 I can literally relate to every single word that you write here in this post.

[m1469]

m1469 I can literally relate to every single word that you write here in this post.

The truth is, I have found that I can relate to at least something (if not everything) with many individuals here (including you, of course).  I have viewed people here as my friends, for whom I have been very grateful.

[pianowolfi]

The truth is, I have found that I can relate to at least something (if not everything) with many individuals here (including you, of course).  I have viewed people here as my friends, for whom I have been very grateful.

Yes me too. After all it's the same as in "real life". And after all what counts for one personally is to stay keeping the inner balance. If I get out of my inner balance because of my "online life" there is something wrong. But that applies to "real life" as well. Hmmm....
At least I think I am learning (step by step) to make no more compromises when it comes to my inner balance!

[m1469]

Yes me too. After all it's the same as in "real life". And after all what counts for one personally is to stay keeping the inner balance. If I get out of my inner balance because of my "online life" there is something wrong. But that applies to "real life" as well. Hmmm....
At least I think I am learning (step by step) to make no more compromises when it comes to my inner balance!

This is a good thing, I guess .  Overall, I haven't anything more to add or subtract from what I have already said.  I do find value in online activity, I do appreciate what has been shared with me, I have viewed individuals here as my friends, and whether people admit it or not, I feel I myself have been of at least some value as a member here, as well.  I won't rehash the other stuff!

Now, let's all make music together ... oh, wait  .  Just joking around.  I do indeed look forward to all future wonders, musical and otherwise, which may be discovered here together!

[thalberg]

Well, I have a DMA in piano performance, and I'd characterize my relative pitch as very weak.  I do not have perfect pitch at all, and any ear training classes I took, I almost failed.  Playing anything by ear in full harmony is not possible for me.  Yet I've played the Liszt B minor sonata and the Goldberg Variations, among many other things.

I agree it has made my life and work much harder.  I wanted to quit music many times for this very reason.  But I have failed to leave the career, mostly because my piano teaching has been very successful and I'm too tired after my doctorate to get more degrees to change careers again.

[invictious]

Well, I have a DMA in piano performance, and I'd characterize my relative pitch as very weak.  I do not have perfect pitch at all, and any ear training classes I took, I almost failed.  Playing anything by ear in full harmony is not possible for me.  Yet I've played the Liszt B minor sonata and the Goldberg Variations, among many other things.

I agree it has made my life and work much harder.  I wanted to quit music many times for this very reason.  But I have failed to leave the career, mostly because my piano teaching has been very successful and I'm too tired after my doctorate to get more degrees to change careers again.

I would just like to congratulate you for that major achievement. I know, for piano at least, that perfect pitch, or even relative pitch, is unnecessary for one to become a good pianist.

I have perfect pitch, and yet I cannot play piano to save my life.

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, I have a DMA in piano performance, and I'd characterize my relative pitch as very weak.  I do not have perfect pitch at all, and any ear training classes I took, I almost failed.  Playing anything by ear in full harmony is not possible for me.  Yet I've played the Liszt B minor sonata and the Goldberg Variations, among many other things.

I agree it has made my life and work much harder.  I wanted to quit music many times for this very reason.  But I have failed to leave the career, mostly because my piano teaching has been very successful and I'm too tired after my doctorate to get more degrees to change careers again.

I have a terrible ear for pitch too. If anything, I honestly believe that it means that I listen more attentively to the way performers voice their chords and make their sounds- rather than having my attention taken away by worrying about notes they are playing. To pick out what musical techniques a pianist is using to achieve their sound and to voice their chords is a strength of mine, if anything. I wouldn't have a clue what notes they were playing, without a score. However, this does not mean you are deaf to all musical issues. With regard to interpretation, there's no reason why this should be any real issue at all. You just have listen more attentively while practising. Slowly spreading chords is a very useful way of ensuring that you're hearing what's really going on. In particular, I like to look for the most interesting harmonic intervals within a chord. Without wishing to claim myself to be a world class performer, I'd like to think that I can reveal the musical tension in a minor ninth far more effectively than plenty of people with better hearing. There are a wealth of professionals today who seem utterly clueless about such things. In fact, just about every performer I've heard play the Dante sonata (apart from Ervin Nyiregyhazi) makes opening tritone sound about as mundane and expected as a perfect fifth. For a performer to reveal the character of an interval is far more important than ability to identify them by ear.

Quite honestly, I sometimes think that having a good ear for pitch can even be a disadvantage. Way too many performers are hopeless at bringing out inner voices- even when they are most important musical line. Actually, most performers fail to differentiate even upper line melodies very well. Can they honestly not hear that? I  Rather, I suspect that they're too caught up in the fact that they can pick out everything easily enough, to consider that this does not magically communicate anything to the audience. Truly great pianists judge from what is required to make the audience hear the music's most important features- not from what it takes for someone with highly acute hearing to be able to notice the details. That's far more important than a spectacular sense of pitch. While the two things can be related, they can also be virtually independent.

[thalberg]

I would just like to congratulate you for that major achievement. I know, for piano at least, that perfect pitch, or even relative pitch, is unnecessary for one to become a good pianist.

I have perfect pitch, and yet I cannot play piano to save my life.

Thanks

I have a terrible ear for pitch too. If anything, I honestly believe that it means that I listen more attentively to the way performers voice their chords and make their sounds- rather than having my attention taken away by worrying about notes they are playing. To pick out what musical techniques a pianist is using to achieve their sound and to voice their chords is a strength of mine, if anything. I wouldn't have a clue what notes they were playing, without a score. However, this does not mean you are deaf to all musical issues. With regard to interpretation, there's no reason why this should be any real issue at all. You just have listen more attentively while practising. Slowly spreading chords is a very useful way of ensuring that you're hearing what's really going on. In particular, I like to look for the most interesting harmonic intervals within a chord. Without wishing to claim myself to be a world class performer, I'd like to think that I can reveal the musical tension in a minor ninth far more effectively than plenty of people with better hearing. There are a wealth of professionals today who seem utterly clueless about such things. In fact, just about every performer I've heard play the Dante sonata (apart from Ervin Nyiregyhazi) makes opening tritone sound about as mundane and expected as a perfect fifth. For a performer to reveal the character of an interval is far more important than ability to identify them by ear.

Quite honestly, I sometimes think that having a good ear for pitch can even be a disadvantage. Way too many performers are hopeless at bringing out inner voices- even when they are most important musical line. Actually, most performers fail to differentiate even upper line melodies very well. Can they honestly not hear that? I  Rather, I suspect that they're too caught up in the fact that they can pick out everything easily enough, to consider that this does not magically communicate anything to the audience. Truly great pianists judge from what is required to make the audience hear the music's most important features- not from what it takes for someone with highly acute hearing to be able to notice the details. That's far more important than a spectacular sense of pitch. While the two things can be related, they can also be virtually independent.

I'm glad you see it that way.  Thanks for the encouragement.  I think I agree with you -- my teacher used to say I imitated her sound quality better than other students, and I think it's because of the things you mentioned.

[ted]

I sometimes wonder if conventional musical education has much right at all about these things. My ear, I would guess, is average to weak, and last year I used one of those ear training computer programs - mostly melody and chord recognition. After a few weeks I became pretty good at the program but it was completely irrelevant to anything I do in piano music - playing, improvisation, composition. My teacher in my youth, a professional musician, had an incredible ear. Do people with such measurable aural skill play, improvise and compose in ways fundamentally different to less gifted clods like me ? I suppose they must do; no way of finding out for sure though.

I have always felt, and age has strengthened the opinion, that the creative musical drive, or for that matter its counterpart in performance, its capability of resulting in vital music, is really far less dependent on these hallowed, examinable musical talents, tested and sanctioned over centuries of thrashing them into pupils, than is popularly assumed.

One reads endless discussions about all sorts of exceptional specific abilities, who has them and who doesn't. I conjecture that in order to create transporting, fine piano music, these things matter far less than people ever imagine. I think they are made to seem unnecessarily important by economics, educational institutions and social customs. What is actually true and important is that anybody with a reasonable mental and physical functioning has a right and capability to creative musical expression using an instrument.

Sadly, all but the fiercely determined are easily convinced of the myth that making music is an activity perpetrated by an arcane few for the inept masses.