Learning very basics of Piano

[truebluefliplover]

Hi.  I am  a 52 year old beginner to the piano and I am a little confused.  I am attempting to teach myself the very basics of piano using a children's primer (Teaching Little Fingers How To Play) before starting Grade 1 of the John Thompson Modern Course for the Piano.  After reading several posts that the finger numbers in the books are a bad habit/crutch, I made a copy of my book with the finger numbers removed to practice with.  I only look at the original book with the finger numbers if there is something I do not understand.  The first half of the book had both hands in middle C position and I got used to reading the notes and not finger numbers.  Additionally I try to keep my eyes on the music and not look at my hands or the keys.  This went well until a small example called The Butterfly (shown below WITH FINGER NUMBERS).  Suddenly the right hand thumb starts at the D note/key instead of middle C and the other fingers are assigned to E, F, G, and A whereas before the thumb was on middle C and the rest of the fingers on D, E, F, and G.  Since I can no longer rely on specific fingers always being assigned to specific keys, I am a little confused in how I am supposed to be learning this.  How should I be thinking of learning finger assignments/patterns?  I admit that it is easier to play using the changed fingering but I don't know how I am to commit the keys/notes to memory.  I would appreciate any guidance anyone could provide as to how I should be approaching this material.

On a side note, I wish that the writers of these books would include guidance or explanations to guide the learner in the journey.  Yes it would greatly increase the number of pages in the books but I think that it would make things easier.

[becky8898]

Hi - im not really a good one to try and answer this for you. All the questions your asking where just obvious to me when I first started lessons , or I had a teacher right from the get go. Unless its a big financial problem , a teacher even for a month would be well worth it.  Or how about a course at a community college, or any number of online courses you can go thru. Of course a real teacher right there with you will make more difference than you can imagine. 

best of luck with your studies

Cheers, Becky

[uthacalthing]

If I understand the question, I think it’s a good idea to learn how the notes sound. After you have a mental image of what the notes/melody sound like, you memorize what finger goes on which key, to produce the sound you want. Does this make sense?

Getting a teacher is a very good idea. I tried to teach myself for many years, but I learned more in one hour with a teacher than in all the previous decade. I’m not exaggerating. It’s very hard to figure this out all on your own.

[keyboardclass]

Why would you look at your hands for a piece like this?  The fingers/hand go no where.  Just move your brain!

[truebluefliplover]

Becky8898 and uthacalthing:

Thank you for the responses.  I do intend to get a teacher but I was wanting to make it at least out of the primer first.  Believe me, I know how hard it can be teaching yourself.  It took me much longer to learn to play lead guitar without a teacher.  My problem is that I get hung up on the WHY of things.  I always want to know why I do something one way instead of another way.  This is why my wife hated teaching me to speak tagalog.  She said that I argued over little things too much.  Thanks again.

[m1469]

Becky8898 and uthacalthing:

Thank you for the responses.  I do intend to get a teacher but I was wanting to make it at least out of the primer first.  Believe me, I know how hard it can be teaching yourself.  It took me much longer to learn to play lead guitar without a teacher.  My problem is that I get hung up on the WHY of things.  I always want to know why I do something one way instead of another way.  This is why my wife hated teaching me to speak tagalog.  She said that I argued over little things too much.  Thanks again.

I think it's really important to understand how things work, which is actually what earnest "why" questions are rooted in, much of the time.  TrueBlue, ultimately, fingering is not exactly about a set "position" on the piano, but rather a mentality about harmony, melodic lines, and pianistic motions -- it depends on the piece.  So, as you advance and as your musical texts involve other notes on the instrument than those within middle c position, you will be forced out of thinking that "3 always plays E", for example.  

There are three basic ways in which to tie it all together and for us to use our hands and fingers accordingly; in "closed" five-finger hand organizations (where your hand does not have to extend (much) beyond one consecutive note after another for all five fingers), in an "open five-finger" hand organization (the group of notes might be within reach of one hand group, but maybe covers an octave or even more), and then finger crossing to redistribute the hands/fingers into the other two organizations.  There are, of course, alterations on that, but even then there is still a kind of foundation in the bulk of the pattern that is rooted in how our hands are built (that's not true of *every* piece in the repertoire, but for lots and lots of it).

It seems that what you are struggling with at the moment hasn't got much to do with the fact that you have practiced reading without finger numbers, but rather that you have still assigned a particular finger to a particular note, in your mind.  In the example of music you provided above, all they have done is taken the mental organization, of one consecutive note per finger (the "closed" hand organization), and started you on D instead of C.  The organization of your hand in relation to number of notes in the melody line is still the same as when you had been in middle C position, but you are learning to mentally organize that in a different spot on the instrument.  The ability to organize your hand around 5 note melodies, despite position on the instrument, is something you will be doing for the rest of your life!

So, don't erase the finger numbers from the page for now, okay?  Instead, erase the mentality that your hand will be organized in one spot on the piano for the rest of its life!  You're moving along, you see?

[lostinidlewonder]

..... This went well until a small example called The Butterfly (shown below WITH FINGER NUMBERS).  Suddenly the right hand thumb starts at the D note/key instead of middle C and the other fingers are assigned to E, F, G, and A whereas before the thumb was on middle C and the rest of the fingers on D, E, F, and G. 

Before you where playing in the Cmajor position, now you are playing in D major position. Notice that the D position has an F# not an F natural. You should be familiar with the sound of the C position, the sound of the D major is really no different ensure you notice the intervals between the notes as well as appreciate the sound that the tones and semitones create.

Since I can no longer rely on specific fingers always being assigned to specific keys, I am a little confused in how I am supposed to be learning this.

Well in the C major position you had RH 12345 on CDEFG respectively. Now in butterfly piece you have the D major position RH 12345 on DEF#GA.

[fleetfingers]

Hi truebluefliplover, *fleetfingers wonders what your screenname means*

You've already received some detailed and helpful answers to your question. Since you are wondering about the "why" when it comes to fingering, just remember that the goal is to move the position of your hand as little as possible. And when you have to move it, you'll want to find the most efficient movement.

When beginning to play The Butterfly, you should consider the movement of the notes. They are going up in steps, right? It would not make sense to start with your 3rd finger on D, for example, because you're going up 4 notes and would "run out of fingers" by the time you get to the G. Then, you'd have to make some kind of awkward movement to play it, interrupting the phrase. It would make a lot more sense to begin with your 1st finger, even your 2nd if you want, then go along using the rest of your fingers in ascending order since that is what the music is doing. That should be your line of thinking when you first play through a piece. As you play it more, you may find a better alternative to the fingering you originally chose. You may notice that if you begin with your 1st finger on D and use your other fingers in sequence, you will not have to move the position of your hand during the entire piece and can conclude that this is the best fingering choice. As you become a more seasoned pianist, you will know automatically what fingers to use because you will recognize a D major five-finger position when you see one. Hope that helps a little.

[ongaku_oniko]

To address the topic:

DON'T DON'T DON'T memorize fingerings! I mean memorize the particular fingering for the particular piece/scale/whatever you're doing, but don't being it elsewhere.

Basically, fingerings have the following functions:

1. Easy to play
2. Able to play comfortably
3. Able to play with speed
4. Easy to stress certain notes

That's all I can think of at the moment.

For a scale, the fingering is because that's the easiest way to play fast for most people. If you can play fast a different way, it doesn't really matter.

For more advanced music, sometimes you'll have to choose one finger over another because of the strength of the finger. For example, if the note should be played softly, you're better off using your fourth finger than your thumb, because that finger is naturally weaker.

But in most cases, fingering is just there to help you find the easiest way to play a particular passage. Which is why most older scores don't have fingerings on them

Or at least that's how I understand it. But I'm no pro.

[truebluefliplover]

So, don't erase the finger numbers from the page for now, okay?  Instead, erase the mentality that your hand will be organized in one spot on the piano for the rest of its life!  You're moving along, you see?
[/quote]

mayla:

Thanks for the explanation.  It sounds like I have to get comfortable with knowing where my hand is at the moment and how far from the last note that the next one is.  I mean, if my right thumb just played the D note and the next note if G that I need to reflexively key the note 3 keys to the right.  Kind of what I read somewhere about intervals.  Does that make sense?

[truebluefliplover]

mayla, lostinidlewonder, fleetfingers, ongaku_oniku:

Thanks to everyone for the kind assistance.  I am still reading and re-reading the explanations that you gave.  It seems like each time I read them I understand them a little bit more.  I do know that the books that I bought (at least initially) rely on 5 finger positions and that I will have to get comfortable with which "position" my hands are in before I realize the mechanics of instinctively selecting the next key that matches the note to be played.

Even though I am at the very beginning of learning the piano, I am having fun each time that I set down to play. 

***fleetfingers***
The screen name that I use is because I am 100% true to, and completely infatuated with the wonderful filipina that I have been married to since 1978.  She and her sisters tagged me with the name and it kind of stuck. 

[m1469]

Thanks for the explanation.  It sounds like I have to get comfortable with knowing where my hand is at the moment and how far from the last note that the next one is.  I mean, if my right thumb just played the D note and the next note if G that I need to reflexively key the note 3 keys to the right.  Kind of what I read somewhere about intervals.  Does that make sense?

Yes, I believe I understand what you are saying.  In general, yes, you want to get comfortable with knowing where your hand is at and how the notes fit under/within it, or to the sides, etc..  That is actually one of the very reasons a beginner book will start you in a "position" and leave you there for a time, so that an individual has some feeling of orientation with the keys, vs. feeling as though you're just swimming in this huge sea of black and white without a life preserver.  But, as you develop, your life preserver changes.  At first, they will take you out of middle c position in steps, as though you're swimming away just a bit from what had been your life preserver, but you can still see it right there, so you are slowly orienting your concept of the keyboard with your ears and hands.

Intervals are a big deal, listening is a really big deal.  But, in my current opinion, feeling the pitches and intervals in your hands and body as though they are your very ability to hear, is yet an even bigger deal.  This is different than just listening with your ears and then intellectualizing, and this is different than just having a physical sense for how far apart keys, these pieces of wood, on the piano are.  Somehow I learned this as a child and remember more and more everyday what that's like (as I remember how I learned this as a child).  I think it's very possible to train.

[jimbo320]

Hi Trueblue,
I 'm also teaching myself at 59. Started a year and a half ago.
Sounds like the difference in books is just showing where to finger for note reach. As you'll learn your starting positions change but not your fingers.
Imagine each octave of seven notes as groups. A1 to G1 as group 1 and so on. Now use your hands to move from one group to the other and your fingers play the notes in each group. Try it out, it might help.
Try this site too..... https://www.pianonanny.com/38.html

Musically, Jimbo

[noon]

Well, I don't know if this information will be usefull for you  but I never  teach my students by positions and certanly the first thing what I say to them that any notes could be played with any fingers. Now, to learn to play in the future with comfortable fingers you have to follow correct ones from the begining. For example, in that piece I will start D note with 2nd finger. Make more sence.Sometimes I 'm writhing fingers on my students pieces, and sometimes I 'm letting them  to play as they feel  more comfortable.