Fast scale passages evenness

[derschoenebahnhof]

I know there is already another similar topic about finger evenness, but I am having mostly problems maintaining evenness when in a fast scale, doing a passage from the 3rd finger to the thumb (ascending notes) or even worse, from the 4th finger to the thumb. I am talking about the right hand here.

Especially if the 3rd or 4th finger happens to be a black note and the thumb has to hit a white, then it seems my thumb "slams" a bit too hard on the next key and the finger switch slows me down a bit.

Any hint on how to improve this? Being a software engineer I spend a lot of time on a computer keyboard and my fingers get tired at the end of the day... I am intermediate+ and playing as a hobby only.

Thanks,
Christian

[bleicher]

You're not alone: tucking the thumb under is one of the things all pianists have to work very hard at.

First thing is to try to get your hand and wrist free and relaxed (that goes for any exercise). Then, work on keeping the thumb curved slightly inwards and avoid having the joints curved outwards. Then devise some exercises for tucking the thumb under, or find a book that has some exercises (there will be many). A common one, for example: start with the right hand. Hold down e with the 3rd finger, then play c with the thumb, then tuck the thumb under and play g, then c again, etc, and the same with the left hand but starting with g. Importantly, when you tuck your thumb under, always curve all the joints so the tip of the thumb points in the direction it's going in.

That's the technical half. The musical half is to practise the scale very slowly so that you can listen really carefully to how the note with the thumb sounds and adjust as necessary.

[brogers70]

I'd suggest

(1) Consider a B major scale. Put your R hand down B-C#-D#-E-F. Then shift it to E-F#-G#-A#-B, slowly, and as relaxed as possible. Just go back and forth until you can get that hand shift perfect, and without stress. Don't play any notes. When you play that hand shift in a scale (ie the D# with the third finger and the E with the thumb, don't think about moving your thumb, just think about moving the whole hand, smoothly and precisely, and without stress.

(2) To avoid the loud thumb note you can also try the following. Play your scales as triplet eighths or as sixteenths with a strong accent on each group of three or four notes. Exaggerate the accent. Then do the scale in four octaves in triplets three times - that will insure that the accent falls on each finger at some point during the exercise. Then do the scale staccato. Finally, try to do it as legato and evenly as possible.

You should do a few tries really blindingly fast to see where the problems are, but then you should spend most of the time going as slowly as necessary to keep smooth and relaxed and just trust that over time your speed will improve.

[keyboardclass]

...then it seems my thumb "slams" a bit too hard on the next key and the finger switch slows me down a bit.

That's not your thumb that's you.

[stevebob]

You're not alone: tucking the thumb under is one of the things all pianists have to work very hard at....

The original poster's concern was evenness in fast scale passages, so I assumed that the technique in question was thumb over rather than thumb under.

[rmbarbosa]

I do agree with Stevebod. In fast runs, thumb over is much better than thumb under. Thumb over means thumb runs like in chomatic scale, i.e. with a horizontal mouvement following the mouvement of the hand. It doesnt pass under the 3º finger, you see? Please, have a look to C.C.Chang: there`s there a little video showing this thumb mouvement.

[Derek]

One way I've used to help develop more control over playing scales (whether I desire evenness or irregularity given the context of what I am playing) is to drum my fingers on the table throughout the day, going 1234543212345. As I approach 5 (pinky), I increase the force with which I tap the table. Over time, this will habitualize your hand into applying more force to the weak fingers. The thumb, index and middle finger typically will exert more force out of habit. This exercise helps balance it out.

Note that I am an amateur, and created that exercise for myself. Whether it is advised by professional piano teachers is another matter. But, I can say it seems to have worked well for me.

I also recall being given exercises by my piano teacher in college with scale passages played entirely by the middle finger, ring finger and pinky (345). This, too, probably gave added control and strength to these fingers for scale playing.

[becky8898]

im never sure what people mean by fast even scale playing. So ill break this down to 2 areas. 

Kind of fast scale playing.  Yes the thumb is important .

Really fast scale playing. Arm movement is everything. disturbing the wrist in anyway and throwing it off balance is a disaster. 

Cheers, Becky

[ongaku_oniko]

how fast is really fast, in terms of quarter-note beats per sixteenth notes?

[becky8898]

how fast is really fast, in terms of quarter-note beats per sixteenth notes?

Its not really any particular number. Also it depends on the music your playing. However let me give you a small example. 

Lets take first the "C scale" Will just use the right hand.  We place our thumb on Middle C and play 123 and then you twist the thumb so that it can play the F , then we play up to B and then twist the thumb to Again play C. The problem is no matter how skillfully you do that you must twist your wrist, first to the left as you pass the thumb under the wrist , thus twisting the wrist and then as the thumb plays you must realign the wrist.  You will never develop great velocity like that.  Try the same thing at the piano instead of passing the thumb under start the C scale play 123 and now shift the arm quickly without distorting the wrist so that when the thumb plays F your hand is in perfect position to continue.  This technique is even more useful on scales where a black note is the note you must pivot off of. 

there are a number of threads on this subject which have already been discussed which explain it much better than I do. 

but you did ask for a number. Fair warning it is different for everyone.  Lets keep it simple and just say that after your metronome is set to quarter note = 160 and your playing 1/16 notes this method works wonderfully. OH its just as applicable for arpegio also.

Hope my very mediocre explanation helped. 

Cheers, Becky

[ongaku_oniko]

Oh wow, that totally makes sense! I don't think 100 professional pianists can explain it better than you did. I actually completely understood what you said!

Wow, that just improved my piano playing by at least 10000%. I'm probably slightly above totally ignorant now!

[derschoenebahnhof]

All: Thanks for the advice/insights provided here! I'll keep practicing 

Becky, if I understand correctly, you are saying, start at C, play 1-2-3, then release the middle finger, shift the hand quickly to the right by 3 notes, and then play F with the thumb, without moving the thumb sideways?

Won't this create a discontinuity (since you have to release the third finger after playing D before the thumb can play F), particularly if you want to play legato?

Thanks,
Christian

[brogers70]

All: Thanks for the advice/insights provided here! I'll keep practicing 

Becky, if I understand correctly, you are saying, start at C, play 1-2-3, then release the middle finger, shift the hand quickly to the right by 3 notes, and then play F with the thumb, without moving the thumb sideways?

Won't this create a discontinuity (since you have to release the third finger after playing D before the thumb can play F), particularly if you want to play legato?

Thanks,
Christian

Even if Becky was not who she claimed, her advice on this point was good. You won't hear a discontinuity in very fast scales. For slow scales, the thumb under approach is fine. But for fast scales it doesn't really work. Thumb over is a bit misleading description of the motion. There's a good description in an old post:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=9211.0

[keyboardclass]

Chopin said as long as the timing was right no one will notice your uneven dynamics.

[derschoenebahnhof]

Chopin said as long as the timing was right no one will notice your uneven dynamics.

Then I have problems with both timing and uneven dynamics  Timing being the one bothering me most.

[ramseytheii]

Chopin said as long as the timing was right no one will notice your uneven dynamics.

Do you know, the more I have thought about it - and I have thought about it a lot - I have just come to realize that piano playing is just putting the right finger down at the right time.  What I mean by that is the supremacy of rhythm above all else.  Not rhythm in the metrical sense of regularity, but in the sense of controlling its regularities and its irregularities...

The secret to playing so many Chopin Etudes, for instance, based on extremely repetitive figurations and motions, is that subtle melodic shading which unconsciously forces our mechanism to be both formed and free, and which allows for the split seconds of time to reset. 

Suggestions to improve the original poster's problem:
1) whenever you have a scale passage, add octaves to all notes that are fingered with 1 or 5, to obtain a balanced hand
2) the second finger leads when crossing the thumb
3) Rhythm is of the utmost importance, especially the relation between the weak beats
4) it sometimes helps to mentally divide passages by hand position, and then play the notes in each hand position in different orders to obtain a balanced hand (ie, Chopin etude op.10 no.1, can be practiced instead of C-G-C-E: C-C-G-E with the same fingering of course)

Walter Ramsey

[tunneller]

I found the over/under discussion very confusing when I first came across it. I prefer to think of it as rotating at the elbow versus rotating the shoulder. Both move the thumb: the first gives an "apparent" rotation of the wrist - allowing the thumb to go under, the second gives an "apparent" motion of the whole arm - so that the thumb more-or-less stays in place relative to the hand. The problem I had with C.Chang's videos was that they were zoomed in at the fingers, so it wasn't so clear to me the big picture of what the arm was doing.

As to doing 1+5's in the middle of scales. Wow!! Hadn't thought of that exercise. Just tried. It's going to be tough to get that smooth, but I can understand why it will help. Something fun for me to do for the next few weeks. 

[fleetfingers]

2) the second finger leads when crossing the thumb

Walter Ramsey

This is the best explanation anyone has offered of the "thumb over" technique. The others are long-winded and confusing, whereas this description is as clear and simple as the technique itself.