Dishonest piano teachers and students

[thompson_321]

Has anyone had any experience of dishonesty with teachers or students in a conservatoire? I have had it I think because I am older and have missed out on a lot of early training. I have been surrounded by phonies! Some people say 'you're great!' or 'that piece isn't hard', and I know that they are lying their heads off. It's worse from a teacher, as I was with this teacher a while ago, and I just felt like it was just about oh give me your money, I don't care about you, you're too old and will never be a concert pianist etc. Has anyone else been through this?

[birba]

I haven't been through it, but it would certainly make me f..... mad!
You're probably going to find dishonest people in all professions.  It's just that you would expect someone who is involved in the arts to be a little more sensitive and caring towards others.

[stevebob]

I would be curious to know further instances of the "dishonesty" described here, as I don't really understand it from the two examples given.

If somebody says you're "great" and you know it's not so, then that's a lie.  But what would be the motivation?

As to an observation like "That piece isn't hard," why would anyone say such a thing at all?  It sounds either uninformed (i.e., difficulty is relative, obviously) or smug ("It isn't hard for me").

[pianisten1989]

As to an observation like "That piece isn't hard," why would anyone say such a thing at all?  It sounds either uninformed (i.e., difficulty is relative, obviously) or smug ("It isn't hard for me").

I know many pianists, both teacher and students, who thinks this way. The student will then have the judgement herself to deal with what to think - if a piece is too difficult or not.
If someone tells you that it's too difficult, already before you start playing it, it will do nothing but make roadblocks in your head.

At least that's a philosophy, so don't get mad at people for trying to encourage you.

If you, at your 'old' age, still say that people can't say that you're great, you'll have major trouble playing in front of people. A majority of all old people you play for (read: The people who will come and listen), however bad it goes, will say that it was wonderful.
What will you do then? Say "f- off, I sucked, don't lie to me!" That will easily make you a concert pianist!

[becky8898]

Hi: lie, its like the norm. but so what. who cares. The average person is as dumb as bread when it comes to knowing whether your doing a nice job playing.  And take me , im 12 with a lot of technique so I wow people. And even those who actually know something tend to be to gentle with there comments about my playing cause of my age. Thank goodness on these boards I have people like Birba, and Pianisten1989, who are straight with me.  Plus if you dont know if your playing is good or sucks, your not listening.  As far as teachers wanting to take your money, well dah, there in this to make a living. 

Also are you open and receptive to people saying to you that what you just played was crap. I mean really receptive to it.  And then having them tear you apart with there criticism . You yourself could be sending out signs that you just dont want to hear that. 

I not saying any of this to be mean. I just think that its the world we live in and to get really good information and feedback requires a lot of work, requires you to make it clear to the world your ego is open to taking a real beating. 

Wishing you find those good clear answers your looking for.

Cheers, Becky

[pianisten1989]

, and Pianisten1989,

Awww! I had to stop practising, cause I just sat there smiling

And well, if you want to (though, I don't think you'll ever read this again) you can always record yourself, and we will be perfectly honest with you.

[perfect_pitch]

First of all... I don't know if it's dishonesty that some teachers have... maybe just a lack of proper knowledge.

I know how bloody hard this is from experience. In the first 10 years of my learning at piano... I have only 1 good teacher for about 2 years... the rest of them were shoddy self-taught morons who kept telling me that my playing was good despite the fact that it lacked proficiency, technique, feeling and almost all the articulation and dynamics.

University however was a shock for me. I had a lecturer try to polish a turd and call it a gem, but it was only when I found my current teacher now (who I've been with for 5 years now), that literally forced me to think about my playing, to re-think my technique and my sight-reading abilities to read the articulation on the page, and to play with feeling.

I really hate all my old teachers (except for the first uni lecturer, she wasn't so bad), but as for the self-taught morons who let me play pieces like the 3rd movement from Moonlight sonata badly, I hate them all.

If I had proper piano teaching from the beginning, I could have been brilliant at piano... I really feel that. But now, I'm just trying to make up for lost time.   

[Bob]

Or maybe insincere is the right word?

I'm not a big fan of someone who only says positive things and everything is positive and great all the time.  Eventually that becomes nothing.  Fluff.  Noise. 

And I've known a few teachers who are just teaching, probably for the money, but they don't spend any time trying to improve as a teacher or thinking about their students outside of the lesson.  No preparation for lessons.

[cuckoo]

Or maybe insincere is the right word?

I'm not a big fan of someone who only says positive things and everything is positive and great all the time.  Eventually that becomes nothing.  Fluff.  Noise.  

Well said.  Also it's hard for insincere people to criticize others.  I find it very frustrating when I'm like "no wait, it's okay to tell me the truth!"  Seriously, how many people on earth can really tell the truth?  My best way to think of is they are trying to encourage me.    

[japjisingh]

I want to add in the question. I am 16. Playing piano for almost 7 years now with years passing by, my teacher has become much more money minded... Like he favours his first batch students and keeps the other batch students aside which makes me feel low. Agreed am not that good compared to them but still I guess I don't play that bad that I get completely ignored.. And to add to the problem, I live in a place where I don't have anywhere else to go for piano classes.. Any suggestions? What should I do?

[nyiregyhazi]

I want to add in the question. I am 16. Playing piano for almost 7 years now with years passing by, my teacher has become much more money minded... Like he favours his first batch students and keeps the other batch students aside which makes me feel low. Agreed am not that good compared to them but still I guess I don't play that bad that I get completely ignored.. And to add to the problem, I live in a place where I don't have anywhere else to go for piano classes.. Any suggestions? What should I do?

One moment you say it's money? The next you say it's abut favouring better students? The latter has nothing to do with money. It's only natural that a teacher favours the best students to some degree. Far from being about money, it's not uncommon for teachers to be very generous with those who do the best. The question is whether the teacher is actively neglecting the lesser students or whether you're jealous of extra generosity to others? If it's definitely the former then there's a problem, but are you sure it's not the latter? You need to be sure that you're judging it on what YOU are receiving- not in comparison to what you think others are receiving. What is it that you're not happy with in that respect?

[meganquinn]

Unfortunately, there are dishonest people everywhere.....

[dcstudio]

Has anyone had any experience of dishonesty with teachers or students in a conservatoire? I have had it I think because I am older and have missed out on a lot of early training. I have been surrounded by phonies! Some people say 'you're great!' or 'that piece isn't hard', and I know that they are lying their heads off. It's worse from a teacher, as I was with this teacher a while ago, and I just felt like it was just about oh give me your money, I don't care about you, you're too old and will never be a concert pianist etc. Has anyone else been through this?

)

being older and missing out on the rigidness of formal training as a child can be an advantage.  I imagine you probably improv better than others and you play by ear quite well. 

curious...why do you think people who compliment and encourage you as a musician are "phonies?" these statements are positive--why do you see them as negative?

sorry about the teacher--don't let 1 bad exp ruin this wonderful time in your life.

music school neurosis -- the need to rate and compare yourself to every other musician at school. I suffered from it for many years after school, it can become overwhelming. Beware.


wow, a lot of anger in this string...hmmm lots of "I could've done this if it weren't for my teacher"   best of luck in the music biz guys.

[dcstudio]

OK,  hee hee hee you would all be happier then if we completely defined you as musicians...told you exactly what to play, how to play it, when to do everything?  so you can later blame your teacher when it doesn't work out?

sorry there, it's a bit too much responsibility for me.  It's also not my job as a teacher to tell YOU who you are as a musician.  I should only guide and encourage you to love your instrument. If you know of a teacher who guarantees success 100%...I would say that you have met a dishonest teacher otherwise grow up and take responsibility for your training and yourself or you will not make it as a pianist or even an adult.   

I apologize,  today I had a rough time convincing my student that he is playing brilliantly.  Funny thing, if I told him it was just bloody awful, I'm sure he would believe me....no problem. sigh

[raphaelinparis]

Hi all
as an adult student a couple of years ago I had a teacher that criticised my playing much, which was positive, but she was often too direct and even blunt and this really diminished my self-confidence and my willingness to improve my playing, which was depressing (the main problem was that she always gave me pieces that I really disliked so one thing led to another...bad music to learn...low motivation...poor playing...harsh criticism...lower motivation, etc);
The whole experience was frustrating, eventhough it did some good to my technique, but after one year of this I reached the point of diminishing returns (zero return actually).
Had I been younger it could easily have broken my motivation and caused me to stop playing the piano.
Since then I found a great teacher, and we work together for years now. She is "nicer" with me and tells me positive but also negative things about my playing. I know that when she shouts "it's great", she's not faking it (it happens sometimes), and I know that when she says "good, let's start again here" that means actually "err, I'm not impressed at all", but I prefer if she says "good", it makes for our good relationship.
She is also realistic about what I can achieve given my experience, and she takes that into account. That is not a bad thing. We student have a tendency to take as reference what we hear on CDs, so we listen to Rubinstein, François, Arrau, Lipatti, Gould and all the giants and we compare ourselves to these geniuses; that is just not a relevant compairison; I guess that a teacher compares us to other students of same experience that she had in the past, and if we fare better than the average, she will tell us that we are "great", eventough we are still children when compared to master pianists. But it keeps us motivated, so it is good.
All in all, we can't expect the teacher to always tell exactly what she thinks, and maybe...that is not a bad thing.
Actually I think that we have to become our own judge of our piano playing; my goal is to be able to hear me when I play and to be able to have a good judgement on my playing; the teacher won't be always on our shoulder, telling us if we are doing good or bad...

[japjisingh]

One moment you say it's money? The next you say it's abut favouring better students? The latter has nothing to do with money. It's only natural that a teacher favours the best students to some degree. Far from being about money, it's not uncommon for teachers to be very generous with those who do the best. The question is whether the teacher is actively neglecting the lesser students or whether you're jealous of extra generosity to others? If it's definitely the former then there's a problem, but are you sure it's not the latter? You need to be sure that you're judging it on what YOU are receiving- not in comparison to what you think others are receiving. What is it that you're not happy with in that respect?

money minded I guess is the wrong usage... I meant to say he isn't giving the equal output to what he is charging... And the comparison thing, it's not only me but many more students who feel exactly the same... and to be frank there is very less quality difference in playing between me and that student on the basis of what I have judged.

[dcstudio]

Actually I think that we have to become our own judge of our piano playing; my goal is to be able to hear me when I play and to be able to have a good judgement on my playing; the teacher won't be always on our shoulder, telling us if we are doing good or bad...

[/quote/]

you will do quite well!  very nicely said   no need to tell me you're an adult--it's quite obvious by your statements. How I wish all of my students had this mature of an attitude, but unfortunately,  only my most successful ones do.

[keypeg]

Whether my playing is "great" or "bad" is not really where it's at for me.  Lessons are for the purpose of learning.  One thing I might expect is that the teacher chose that particular piece because he wants to develop particular things in my playing.  If I'm a beginner it might be simple things like playing evenly, or learning to have different dynamics in the two hands (voicing).  So I'd want to know whether I achieved it, or of there is something he'd like to hear that isn't there.  Or maybe the way I'm moving is stiff and there is a better way of going about it.  The teacher is the guide, and that is the kind of feedback I'm looking for.  If it's good --- why is it good, so that I can continue doing it.  If bad, what specifically needs improving, and how do I go about it?

As far as "listening" to myself - As I started to learn to do certain things in my playing such as concentrating on tempo and meter, I also started to really hear it for the first time.  When I heard performers, I started hearing them differently, and sometimes liked performances or music I had not cared for previously, because of my new hearing.  This hearing comes from what we are taught.

There are teachers, unfortunately, who simply give students piece after piece, tell them that this or that note is wrong, but don't teach them in any real way.  There is technique, sight reading, theory, getting at interpretation through understanding.  This is not some adult quirk, to want to be taught these things. 

I hope this clarifies my idea that being told it is good or bad is not the main point.

[brogers70]

 I know that when she shouts "it's great", she's not faking it (it happens sometimes), and I know that when she says "good, let's start again here" that means actually "err, I'm not impressed at all", but I prefer if she says "good", it makes for our good relationship.

The other day my teacher said, "Well, the left hand is prominent when it needs to be, but the line is not very shaped," which was just a kindly way of saying "It's loud enough, but it's ugly." I got the point, but I also appreciated the way it was delivered.

[keypeg]

The other day my teacher said, "Well, the left hand is prominent when it needs to be, but the line is not very shaped," which was just a kindly way of saying "It's loud enough, but it's ugly." I got the point, but I also appreciated the way it was delivered.

I don't read it that way at all.  If you are listening for whether your playing was "good" or not then it might come across that way.  But that's not what lessons are for.  Your playing is not supposed to be perfect - you are learning how to do things.  It sounds like she was telling what you can do next with the piece.  I would have asked this teacher HOW to shape the line, and then go home and see what I can do with it.

[dcstudio]

keypeg--

I am a teacher, but I work equally as a pianist.  Your attitude is common among the adult pros I work with and very rare among students.  You are on your way to truly being able to PLAY this instrument.  You have discovered "the secret" ---best of luck to you!!!

[brogers70]

I don't read it that way at all.  If you are listening for whether your playing was "good" or not then it might come across that way.  But that's not what lessons are for.  Your playing is not supposed to be perfect - you are learning how to do things.  It sounds like she was telling what you can do next with the piece.  I would have asked this teacher HOW to shape the line, and then go home and see what I can do with it.

Ah, but it really was "loud enough but ugly." He was quite right. And if I pay attention I already know how to shape the line. He was just, very politely, letting me know where I needed to pay more attention.

[rmbarbosa]

Some weeks ago, I saw in youtube a professional pianist playing the Nocturne no 20 (Chopin) so badly that I wrote: uggly, horrible!
I think I`m yet alive because it´s quite impossible to kill me by internet...
Also I saw Claudio Arraw playing the same nocturne and I wrote that I didnt like. And I received a lot of emails asking me why I didnt like. If he is Claudio Arrau, he is perfect by inerence. Nevertheless, he "killed" this nocturne...
Yesterday, I saw a russian pianist playing Chopin and didnt like. Wonderful technique, good tone but without "soul". And I said I didnt like.
Music is a very serious thing. We cant say to someone he is great if he isnt...
Ionesco has a little theatral piece named "The genius without head". "If he is a genius, why must he have a head?"...

[pianoman53]

Some weeks ago, I saw in youtube a professional pianist playing the Nocturne no 20 (Chopin) so badly that I wrote: uggly, horrible!
I think I`m yet alive because it´s quite impossible to kill me by internet...
Also I saw Claudio Arraw playing the same nocturne and I wrote that I didnt like. And I received a lot of emails asking me why I didnt like. If he is Claudio Arrau, he is perfect by inerence. Nevertheless, he "killed" this nocturne...
Yesterday, I saw a russian pianist playing Chopin and didnt like. Wonderful technique, good tone but without "soul". And I said I didnt like.
Music is a very serious thing. We cant say to someone he is great if he isnt...
Ionesco has a little theatral piece named "The genius without head". "If he is a genius, why must he have a head?"...

Well, there are several ways to say that you don't like it. Do be either "It sucks, but I'm not going to tell you why!" which is probably the worst way. Or you could say why you didn't like it, which makes it your personal opinion.

[rmbarbosa]

Yes, you may be right. With the russian pianist, I said I didnt like because she plays too fast and without "soul". With Claudio Arrau, I explained my reasons. But with the other guy (I dont remember his name because he doesnt deserve...) his performing was so horrible and without sense that it was quite impossible to explain all the errors he commited... he has no idea how to play Chopin. That`s it.

[pianoman53]

well, why even bothering then?

[dcstudio]

Well, there are several ways to say that you don't like it. Do be either "It sucks, but I'm not going to tell you why!" which is probably the worst way. Or you could say why you didn't like it, which makes it your personal opinion.

people really get personal on that opinion even angry at times.  usually what they say "sucks" about someone else's playing is what they feel "sucks" in their own playing...   but as you have said quite beautifully--it is only your personal opinion.   

I like the way you put things