Piano restoration advice

[elriba]

Hi,

I need advice regarding a piano restoration job.    I've inherited a Steinway model B-211 piano manufactured in 1971 in Hamburg Germany.

The piano has never been fully restored....    As far as I can tell, the major work done on it was to replace two strings (as I can see that they are different).

I contacted a piano restorer here (I'm located in Panama City, Panama), and he says that it is necessary to change the strings.    He says that piano strings must be changed every 20-25 years, and since this piano is about 40 years of age, it is just necessary to do it.    The argument is that the quality of the sound of the bass strings starts to decay after that many years, and it is impossible to get the correct quality of sound.

In addition to changing the strings, this operation, he explained, requires to change the pins that hold the strings to the next higher width of pins.   The reason for this is that the process of unscrewing the pins will loosen the grip of the pin block on the pins; thus requiring a thicker pin.

Another piano technician who had been tuning the piano and doing some minor repairs disagrees and says that this process can wait for a few years more because the sound is ok, and the current pins are working correctly (the piano holds its tuning fine).   He says:  "If the bass strings had a buzzing sound, THEN it would be time to change them..."

The technician who wants to change the strings is currently rated as the top piano restaurer here in Panama (as far as I can tell), but I must confess that I'm wondering WHAT to do...

Any suggestions,
Edgard

[jimbo320]

Hi Elriba,
A good tech should be able to replace the strings with the old pins if they're in good shape. If the piano holds tune good chances are the pins are okay. That's the lower end. If it was me, and I wanted a top notch job done, I'd go all the way and replace the pins. Don't forget to check out the sounding board...
Here's the website of someone on here that could help you better.  https://www.silverwoodpianos.com/


Musically, Jimbo

[keys60]

Dear Elriba,

 If one, two or a few strings buzz, sometimes the copper casing is a little loose on the steel core of the string. They can be loosened, turned one revolution which tightens the copper wrap to the core, but back on the hitch pin (the lower end of the string) and brought back up to pitch. This usually cures the buzzing.

If the torque of the tuning pins is still acceptable ( the tech needs to check this with a torque wrench made for tuning pins) and the piano sounds good to YOU, there is no need to replace the strings. I've heard older strings than that that still sound fine. I've on the other hand heard strings that were much newer that needed to be replaced. It really depends on the environment and care your piano has received over the years.
New IS nice but be advised, it takes over a year and several tuning for your strings to stabilize. They won't hold a tune as well as the old ones that are stretched and settled in.
Your piano is after a wonderful piano. Steinway B's are great! Anything you put into it is a worthwhile investment if the work is done correctly and it is a good candidate for restoration.

As for the pin size. The qualifications of the tech isn't really relevant to whether you need a size or two larger. A better tech isn't going to get away with saving your old pins. The quality of your pinblock is the deciding factor. Of course, you would want a qualified tech regardless. Pinblocks do wear out regardless of the initial quality of your piano. The holes eventually oval from years of manipulation. Again, we cross that bridge when we get to it. Your tech will randomly drive in a pin, check the torque, if acceptable, use the same size pin. Usually they go from a #2 to a #3 or #4 in old pianos. A piano from the 70's is hardly ancient so one size up should suffice.
New pins really look nice, aren't that expensive and are worth it for the money you will spend on a restringing job.

Once again, the decision is yours. If you play a lot and the piano does not sound good to you, it may be a worth while investment. If you are satisfied with the sound, let it go for a while.
Do what's in you best interest.

Also, what Jimbo 320 said about Dan Silverwood is true. He has much more experience than I do as a technician. If my explanation doesn't give you enough confidence in your decision making, his should. I love being corrected if need be.

[richard black]

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Changing the strings every 25 years is well excessive unless you're being ultra-fussy about a concert instrument. I appreciate that Panama City is hotter and more humid than London, UK, where I have always lived, but unless your strings are looking and/or sounding very elderly I wouldn't necessarily bother, even at 40 years.

Of course, if you're rich and the cost doesn't put you off I guess you might as well go for it. If, as with most musicians, every penny counts....

[jimbo320]

Hey Richard,
I sing very well...........in my head....

[elriba]

Thanks for your advice guys.
Edgard

[silverwoodpianos]

First of all Jimbo and Keys60; many thanks, I am humbled by your kind words. Remember I don’t know it all either….

Hello Edgard,

It is important for you to understand that I have not inspected this piano. I am only going by what you tell me here.

I contacted a piano restorer here (I'm located in Panama City, Panama), and he says that it is necessary to change the strings.    He says that piano strings must be changed every 20-25 years, and since this piano is about 40 years of age, it is just necessary to do it.    The argument is that the quality of the sound of the bass strings starts to decay after that many years, and it is impossible to get the correct quality of sound.

This is true. Strings begin to decay immediately upon installation and continue to deteriorate over their life time. For the most part pianos should have the strings changed every 20-25 years; nobody ever does this. I have come across plenty of old pianos, twice the age of this one, with original strings inside. Yes of course, with a concert hall, the concert instrument is strung every 5-7 years, but this is not the case with this instrument.

In addition to changing the strings, this operation, he explained, requires to change the pins that hold the strings to the next higher width of pins.   The reason for this is that the process of unscrewing the pins will loosen the grip of the pin block on the pins; thus requiring a thicker pin.

This is also true; when changing the strings it is always best to install a new set of tuning pins.

Another piano technician who had been tuning the piano and doing some minor repairs disagrees and says that this process can wait for a few years more because the sound is ok, and the current pins are working correctly (the piano holds its tuning fine).   He says:  "If the bass strings had a buzzing sound, THEN it would be time to change them..."

This is correct; there is no point in spending money for new strings and tuning pins on this machine yet. If the tuning pins are not loose then leave the strings and wire until such time as the tuning pins deteriorate and will not hold tuning. Then change the pins and string set.

The technician who wants to change the strings is currently rated as the top piano restaurer here in Panama (as far as I can tell), but I must confess that I'm wondering WHAT to do...
Any suggestions,
Edgard

Well this might be true; this fellow could be the top rated piano restorer in your area. But your piano does not need to be restored yet

[keys60]

Edgard.

Just curious. What did the piano technician that would like to restring your piano say about the condition of the hammers and overall condition of the action/regulation?

Thank you Dan for your input. I'm sure I appreciate it as much as Edgard.

[iumonito]

Edgard,

Que fantastico este piano!  Hamburg, B; boy - that's really nice.

It sounds to me the technician you found just wants a bit of your money.  I grew up in Caracas, which has weather not entirely dissimilar from Panama City (yours perhaps a bit warmer, but not particularly humid in the way summer in Florida or Georgia is humid), and most importantly without big swings in humidity or temperature.  If your piano has been in that weather for a long time, be mindful that some of the analysis and advice and rules of thumb about piano maintenance are myths and traditions that assume four distinct seasons and rather dramatic changes in humidity, neither of which your piano suffers.

Changing strings every 25 years is, in my opinion, absolute nonsense.  The truth of the matter is that hammer voicing and wear has a much more significant impact on how your piano sounds, followed closely by the health of your soundboard and bridges.  If you have no cracks in your soundboard, and assuming there is good crown and the bridges are well connected to the soundboard and have no cracks, what you really want is a technician that will recommend voicing the hammers often (how often depends on how picky you are; I am exceedingly picky and have mine voice every 18 months or so).

If your action is well-balanced to begin with (very few are), you are not going to be very happy with filing down the hammers when voicing is no longer a viable path.  Here is the theory: the hammers get harder and harder where they hit the strings (you probably can see groves on the hammer).  There comes a point when the groves are beyond needling, and very often the solution prior to replacing the hammers is to file them down to where the fresh material starts.  The problem with that, for me anyway, is that in filing them you change quite dramatically the weight of the hammer, thus affecting the action (that is, the touch-weight and mass proportions of the key strike).  Filing also slightly (but significantly) changes the strike distance for the hammer.  That makes for a rather uneven action, even if done carefully and readjusted.  I am yet to find a technician that will take the time to do this operation in such OCD manner that the filing will be gradual and consistent across the keyboard (although, note my current technician has not been faced with this situation yet; I love her, she's is good and is keeping my pianos happy these days).

Which leads me to the real answer to your question:  Do not replace the strings unless they are broken or if there is a lot of rust everywhere (and if there is, you have other problems).  Instead, consider getting a brand-new set of hammers if the piano has been played a lot, or just a bit of voicing if it has not.

Now, regarding pins and the tuning block.  If the piano holds tune for 6 months at a time, you should not change the pins at all.  The theory about bigger pins is that they will be more snug and then hold tune better than pins that are loose in their holes.  Nonsense.  If the pins are loose in their holes it is either because the holes were drilled wrongly to begin with (very unlikely in a 70's Hamburg Steinway B), or because you have a broken tuning block (in which case larger pins will at best be useless and at worst further break the block).  But consider this, even if a few holes were too big, replacing the whole set of pins with bigger ones has the very serious risk of cracking your difficult-to-replace tuning block.  This is bound to happen, and eventually will require re-stringing the instrument twice (the second time when you have to get a tuning block, which in this instrument is totally worth it, if you are in that unfortunate situation).

The short of it is: fire your technician and try to get a new one, even if you have to bring him or her from abroad.  Do not fully re-string your piano unless you are replacing the tuning block or the soundboard (both operations will require taking the old strings off, and once off it is a very bad idea to use the same strings back on - at that point you really want fresh ones).  In other words, you would restring the instrument not because you need a new set of strings, but because you had to take off the strings and should not re-string with your old ones.

Buena suerte!

[jimbo320]

After reading all the different posts and the conflicting ideas being bounced around I feel the need to say something here.
A friend got an old Yamaha grand given to him a few months ago by his grandfather and he just had the strings replaced but left the hammers alone except for a slight adjustment. The tech replaced a few notes at a time. I'm not sure why but the end results were a great sound and feel.
I guess there's no set action to be taken, every piano is different....

Musically, Jimbo

[john90]

The tech replaced a few notes at a time. I'm not sure why but the end results were a great sound and feel.
I guess there's no set action to be taken, every piano is different....

Interesting approach Jimbo, replacing string by string. Did the tech change the pins? Was it done over a number of visits in the customers house?

[jimbo320]

Hi John,
It all took place in one visit about 5 hours. Replaced a few upper octave pins but not that many. Adjusted the action and that was it. The piano sounds like new....

Jimbo.