Tension and Strength

[fleetfingers]

Should a pianist always play without tension? Or is tension needed - at least initially - to build strength? In order to  play in a relaxed manner, do the muscles involved in playing have to first become strong?

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

Well I'm *no expert* but I don't think tension builds strength, just pain   And pain is not a good thing... no (physical) pain, no gain doesn't really apply to piano.
 

I still have a problem of playing with too much tension, especially when I go into a state of furious practicing, and then I pay for that with aching hands.

[brogers70]

I think that often when you think you are developing strength, you are really just learning to relax. I think that isometric contraction of the muscles you are NOT using at any given time contributes a great deal to fatigue. So as you learn how to shut off the muscles you don't need to use, fatigue decreases and you think you've gotten stronger. But really you learned how to stop contracting the irrelevant muscles.

[bleicher]

To make any movement, we contract a muscle or group of muscles. It wouldn't be possible to do anything at all without tensing some muscles. However what we normally mean when we use the word 'tension' is using muscles we don't need to for the job in hand, for example tightening a finger you're not actually using to play the note you're playing, or raising the shoulder, or tightening the arm. Brogers70 is right when they say that often when you think you're developing strength, you're just making the movement easier by stopping yourself from using unnecessary muscles.

[brogers70]

Brogers70 is right when they say that often when you think you're developing strength, you're just making the movement easier by stopping yourself from using unnecessary muscles.

Actually, it was your suggested exercise to improve my fast Alberti bass that really brought this home to me. All the tension and cramping I was getting was because I was tensing muscles I didn't need, and your little exercise, a few minutes a day, fixed that problem completely.

[brriker]

Avoid tension at all costs.  I know from hard experience it will just get in the way.  I had teachers who said I needed to develop finger strength that set me on doing lots of heavy striking and exercises that ended up building tension too much.  I eventually discovered what I really needed was relaxation and efficiency of finger motion, but I wasted a lot of years and still am working at getting rid of habits of tension.

[ongaku_oniko]

care to share some relaxation techniques, and not some fancy names?

[keyboardclass]

The point is you only need tension (in the fingers and wrist) during the moment of key depression - the rest of the time you (and they) are relaxed.  Watch some of the vids here: www.youtube.com/isstip They're from my sadly-no-longer-with-us teacher's DVD.

[pianowolfi]

The point is you only need tension (in the fingers and wrist) during the moment of key depression - the rest of the time you (and they) are relaxed.  Watch some of the vids here: www.youtube.com/isstip They're from my sadly-no-longer-with-us teacher's DVD.

Most interesting to me what they talk about focal dystonia! So Carola Grindea was your teacher?

[brriker]

One thing that helped me was realizing how little effort and motion is actually needed to make a key sound.  If you just place your hands directly on the keyboard, try wiggling a finger on the surface of the keys without actually lifting.  You can make the note sound with virtually no effort expended.  For me, it was playing scales and other exercises (I used Hanon) very slowly while focusing on barely lifting the fingers and using the weight of your hands and fingers to play the notes.  It's like letting gravity take hold of the weight that your arms and hands possess to play rather than by striking using the finger muscles.

I have also found that it is also important to make sure that the wrists, shoulders and elbows stay as relaxed as possible while you are playing.  You may think they are relaxed but that might not be the case if you have long-standing habits of tension in your body--you may not not even realize how tense your body really is.  Working to reduce tension away from the piano can help, especially by using different types of stretching, yoga, etc.  You can use your mind to control the tension in your body.  Personally, I was not very aware of my body for a long time--perhaps because I was not athletic and awkward as an adolescent.

 
There was a time when I set in a hot tub and just focused on letting the tension out of every joint.  This may seem weird to some people, but it was hard for me to get rid of all the ingrained tension I had held in my body for years.  It was only when I begin to consciously focus on fixing this that my piano playing began to improve.

Some people have found Alexander technique helps.  I had a few sessions of this sort of training and it seemed to help some. 

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

One thing that helped me was realizing how little effort and motion is actually needed to make a key sound.  If you just place your hands directly on the keyboard, try wiggling a finger on the surface of the keys without actually lifting.  You can make the note sound with virtually no effort expended.  For me, it was playing scales and other exercises (I used Hanon) very slowly while focusing on barely lifting the fingers and using the weight of your hands and fingers to play the notes.  It's like letting gravity take hold of the weight that your arms and hands possess to play rather than by striking using the finger muscles.

I have also found that it is also important to make sure that the wrists, shoulders and elbows stay as relaxed as possible while you are playing.  You may think they are relaxed but that might not be the case if you have long-standing habits of tension in your body--you may not not even realize how tense your body really is.  Working to reduce tension away from the piano can help, especially by using different types of stretching, yoga, etc.  You can use your mind to control the tension in your body.  Personally, I was not very aware of my body for a long time--perhaps because I was not athletic and awkward as an adolescent.

 
There was a time when I set in a hot tub and just focused on letting the tension out of every joint.  This may seem weird to some people, but it was hard for me to get rid of all the ingrained tension I had held in my body for years.  It was only when I begin to consciously focus on fixing this that my piano playing began to improve.

Some people have found Alexander technique helps.  I had a few sessions of this sort of training and it seemed to help some. 

I found your post very helpful. And thanks for the link keyboard class, the videos look interesting!

I know this is fleetfingers thread, but my problem, according to my teacher, is something that I think is called keybedding? I've been trying to fix this problem .
I am aware it doesn't take a lot of force to press keys, BUT in pieces with large stretches where you have to hold notes (especially with the RH pinky), sometimes when I try to release the tension after striking the key, I forget that I have to keep the note down, or I just accidentally release it before I'm supposed to because my other fingers are trying to reach other notes.

[keyboardclass]

Most interesting to me what they talk about focal dystonia! So Carola Grindea was your teacher?

Yes sirree!

[keyboardclass]

I found your post very helpful. And thanks for the link keyboard class, the videos look interesting!

I know this is fleetfingers thread, but my problem, according to my teacher, is something that I think is called keybedding? I've been trying to fix this problem .
I am aware it doesn't take a lot of force to press keys, BUT in pieces with large stretches where you have to hold notes (especially with the RH pinky), sometimes when I try to release the tension after striking the key, I forget that I have to keep the note down, or I just accidentally release it before I'm supposed to because my other fingers are trying to reach other notes.

Arnold Bax (a famous English composer) had piano lessons with Tobias Matthay (the most famous English piano teacher who invented the term keybedding).  Bax says in his autobiography that just as he felt his playing was getting inspired Matthay would poke him in the ribs with interjections of " You're keybedding, you're keybedding!" ruining the 'moment' for him!

[brriker]

I haven't heard the term "keyboarding" before, at least not in the US...maybe it's a UK thing? 

What does it mean?

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

Arnold Bax (a famous English composer) had piano lessons with Tobias Matthay (the most famous English piano teacher who invented the term keybedding).  Bax says in his autobiography that just as he felt his playing was getting inspired Matthay would poke him in the ribs with interjections of " You're keybedding, you're keybedding!" ruining the 'moment' for him!

  My teacher pushes/pulls my hands up a bit whenever I "keybed" Or gives me a tap.

@ brriker
I'm Canadian! And my teacher is Eastern European!
I'm not a good explainer, its when you put unnecessary weight to the bottom of the keys after the key has been pressed down...  a good way to hurt your hands  

[bleicher]

@brogers70 - glad to have helped! I'm only a student myself so I've only started to get to grips with preventing tension since I started with my current teacher just under a year ago.

There are also exercises to develop finger strength, but they really must be done under the close supervision of a teacher otherwise they can do more harm than good for all the reasons given above.

Speaking of tension, I'd better get off this laptop and do a bit of yoga before starting my practice!

[mike1127]

Regarding relaxation, I can explain some of the perspective offered by techniques like the Alexander Technique and the Feldenkrais Method. I have advanced training in the Feldenkrais Method and have taken many Alexander lessons.

There is a difference between learning to relax while at rest, and learning to change your concept of movement so that every movement has less tension associated with it. The former can be very good and can help improve your technique, but the latter can be a more revolutionary experience.

Let me explain this a little more. According to my understanding of the brain, before you make a movement, at a deep level you imagine it. You have something called a self-image, which is a program of how your body works. When you need to make a movement, say moving your arm to the left end of the keyboard, your brain uses this self-image to construct some concept of how to carry out this movement---which muscles to activate, and how to coordinate them.

For most people, the self-image (or the concept of how to carry out a movement) has inefficiencies. It includes unnecessary tightening. The good news is that the self-image can change. You can improve your self-image so that there is less unnecessary tension built into the movement.

I can't describe succinctly here all aspects of how to go about improving the self-image. That's a large topic which is addressed when you take Feldenkrais or Alexander lessons. There are many facets to this.

There is one simple thing you can start to practice, however. A lot of athletes do this. Practice imagining movement. For instance, instead of playing a piece, imagine that you are playing it. You could go through the entire piece, or just pick a few notes from it. Then see if you can imagine the movement getting easier and easier until, in your imagination, it is effortless. Then actually play the part you just imagined, and notice carefully any changes in your experience of it. If you do notice changes, try not to "intellectualize" the changes--- that is, try not to explain them to yourself or "understand" them--- try instead to let them be automatic. Trust your unconscious mind with this.

Try also to include your entire body in your imagination. perhaps you don't usually pay much attention to your lower back. If you need to make the movement in actuality a few times to get a sense of how your lower back feels, then do that. Include all the parts of your that you usually don't notice.

[keyboardclass]

I'd use the term body schema rather than self image and yes, most peoples' have glitches.

[mike1127]

Yeah, "body schema" and "body maps" are other terms, perhaps better ones. There are both static aspects of one's body schema and dynamic aspects. The static schema---you have a sense of your basic shape and size and the locations of your joints. The dynamic schema---this has to do with how you organize movement, such as how much of your body participates in the movement and whether there is any tightening built-in to your concept of movement.

Changing the dynamic schema can be revolutionary. My experience is that the word "glitches" doesn't quite capture the sense that there can be pervasive inefficiencies or limited concepts of movement that affect all actions.

The extraordinary flowing movement of graceful people is not a gift bestowed only on the lucky few--- anyone can learn to identify and change inefficiencies and move a step closer to grace and ease. To address the most generalized inefficiencies normally involves lessons away from the piano, and two methods I'm familiar with (by no means the only methods that exist) are Feldenkrais and Alexander.

[keyboardclass]

Put most gracefully!  Try and get a read of Shaun Gallagher's how the body shapes the mind.  He tries to sort out terms (amongst other things).  I was talking to some children yesterday about the part of you that allows you to pick up a hot mug of cocoa and bring it to your lips (also lets you find your way home while thinking about something else).  It occurred to me that 'autopilot' is a good analogy for body schema.  Ones autopilot is a combination of training, instinct and genes.   The first two can (and should) certainly be tinkered with.

I'm not convinced 'changing' the dynamic schema is the way to put it though.  It sounds too active.  Though it's certainly a lot of effort it's a taking away.  There is an important subtle difference.   Maybe reeducating?  That resonates well considering its root - educere.

[fleetfingers]

keyboardclass, I was shocked to see more than one line of words in your post - there are even two paragraphs!    I like your analogy of being on autopilot. That makes a lot of sense.

I appreciate the detailed descriptions from everyone on what it means to relieve tension when playing. It's a fairly new concept to me and I am trying to wrap my brain around what it means exactly and how to get myself to play better in that way. Thanks for all your comments!

[keyboardclass]

keyboardclass, I was shocked to see more than one line of words in your post - there are even two paragraphs!  

Aha!  You've hit on a subject I'm passionate about.  I'm just finishing up on the Black Note Etude.  Even at my stage with a diploma and years of learning, it was only yesterday my body fell upon the-even-more-tension-free technique for it.  The more you reeducate the more your fingertips effortlessly sparkle.  It's about tiny, tiny movements.

[mike1127]

keyboardclass: I agree with what you write. A lot of the autopilot is trained in infancy when we are first figuring out how to move in the way we want.

I think there is a paradox in which growth involves both simple permission and active involvement at the same time. Early in my journey, the specific block was that I tried too hard at everything (a common state I think) so that I was most surprised by what happened when I let go and let things take their natural course.

Recently I've added another point of view, which is that I can be very active in imagining what I would like to be able to do. The process by which imagination grows into action is a process that I can "allow," something I can "give permission to" (so in that sense it is not "active"). But that doesn't leave me off the hook for dreaming and imagining how things could work better, and I can take a very active involvement in those dreams. Once I learn how to get out of my own way, I can be quite proactive in identifying specific changes I would like to make and pursuing those changes.

I think my current focus is why I've been phrasing it as "change the schema."

But reeducation is a good term, as long as we don't associate it with labor camps, ha ha.

Or just eduction.

Feldenkrais teachers often speak of what they do as education.

Alexander teachers often call it unlearning.

[keyboardclass]

I can't I go so much on imagining though the real faculty is 99% of living.  I think letting go is the key.  Often I hear my body play something that has really hit the nail on the head - it's like having your own inspired concert pianist sitting right next to you!  Check out www.isstip.org - I'm part of that - maybe you have an article for our journal?

[mike1127]

I'm not quite expert enough to speak in generalizations that apply to everyone, but I can say about myself that everything I do is preceded by imagination. I don't mean this is always conscious. On some level, however subtle or quick, I imagine myself taking an action before I act. There is a process by which imagination grows into action, even if it is usually fast and below the level of my awareness.

So re-imagining action is very powerful.

But this may not become clear until one does a structured lesson that guides one through these discoveries. Alexander Technique and the Feldenkrais Method provide such structured lessons.

I would feel unqualified to write an article because, #1 mostly I work with the Feldenkrais Method which provides a fairly complete framework for understanding inefficiencies in action, #2 my Feldenkrais teachers are far more knowledgeable that I am.

There is a combo professional pianist/Feldenkrais teacher named Mary Spire.

[fleetfingers]

Aha!  You've hit on a subject I'm passionate about.  I'm just finishing up on the Black Note Etude.  Even at my stage with a diploma and years of learning, it was only yesterday my body fell upon the-even-more-tension-free technique for it.  The more you reeducate the more your fingertips effortlessly sparkle.  It's about tiny, tiny movements.

Um...video? Please??? 

[lostinidlewonder]

Some thoughts;
 
When you are learning a new piece no matter how good you are you will play it with more tension by comparison to the tension you have when it is well known and mastered over time.

You can minimise the tension when you are learning a piece but it will take time until it finds the most efficient path. This is normal. Anyone who tells you they practice the piece with the same tension that they have when they have mastered it fall into two categories, those that improve their tension at such a rate that they do not notice the difference and those who do not know how to improve tension/relaxation. It is a fantasy to imagine that you can practice a fresh piece with the tension and relaxation you attain once you fully master a piece. This exact process is what we like to pick up on to measure our mastery of a piece. If you learn a piece that is below your level you might be able to play it with relaxation and tension somewhat equivalent to when you have it completely mastered, but there still will be a small difference.

Understanding tension while you practice is very important because it is a physical indicator. It is an indicator of your improvement and movement towards mastery as you notice you can play certain passages better than before and with more relaxation. You may come across passages where you feel you are faking your way through it, the chances you make a mistake are higher or the fingering becomes stressful and difficult etc, these are points which effect our tension and relaxation and as we tackle these challenges we will notice an improvement in the physical transfer.

We should start out practicing a piece as close as possible to what we imagine is the relaxed touch and then as we familiarise ourself with the piece become more clear upon what that exact touch is and your improvement towards that. I have taught many self taught pianists who have miscalculated this step. Often it is because they do not know how to improve a relaxed touch, it certainly is not something you really can put in words because everyone is equipped with different tools and challenges. You must feel the difference first, often I am highlighting with great melodramatic representation of why what they do is bad, then try to define how to relax that. I alway tell them I am over exaggerating what they do when I mimic them so they don't feel bad though! Once they identify the main culprit(s) of their tension then they can make adjustments to these, often the teacher need not even give any direction but ask them to think about these points, then the student can make a more organic response in changing that.

I always tell my students to feel lazy while they play, the hands don't want to have move, we want to know if we can keep our fingers about certain notes, we want to monitor the 1st and 5th finger and keep them in controlled positions, we want to understand center of gravity of our hand while we play passages, we also want to know how to pivot around certain fingers and notes in phrases to allow greater control of a string of notes with one position of the hand. You can rattle off hundreds of more statements which relate to how we try to control our hand while we play but most make sense when applied to actual musical passages (and there are countless instances where you can apply a statement relating to relaxation for passages that challenge you), but in essence we want to realize that we need to play passage with a little effort a possible, this allows us to then learn more complicated technique and build upon what we have. You can't build your technique if it is based on a lot of tension, things just will become too difficult and you will reach a limit until you solve your technical efficiency issues.

[keyboardclass]

I'm not quite expert enough to speak in generalizations that apply to everyone, but I can say about myself that everything I do is preceded by imagination.

Quite correct.  That's why you might as well learn a score away from the piano - it's going to have to emerge from your imagination first anyway.  Though it's 90% a nonconscious process you can catch it happening if you watch closely. 

[keyboardclass]

Um...video? Please??? 

What would you like a video of and how would it help?  It's technique overall that needs addressing not individual pieces.

[keyboardclass]

I checked out Mary Spire's youtube vid.  In my book (nearly literally - I've done three articles so far) her shoulders are too rounded (forward or protracted to be technical about it).  This is a Feldenkreis thing - he said the knuckles naturally face forward.  To enable that the shoulders have to round.  Here's her and a quickly done my seated posture.  Opinions are welcome!

[lostinidlewonder]

I checked out Mary Spire's youtube vid.  In my book (nearly literally - I've done three articles so far) her shoulders are too rounded (forward or protracted to be technical about it).  This is a Feldenkreis thing - he said the knuckles naturally face forward.  To enable that the shoulders have to round.  Here's her and a quickly done my seated posture.  Opinions are welcome!

I like the top picture better than the bottom. The bottom picture is sitting too flat on the chair and looks too rigid, you cannot sit like that for a long time. If you lift your feet off the floor you should fall forwards, you can sense that in the top picture but not the bottom.

[pianowolfi]

I like the top picture better than the bottom. The bottom picture is sitting too flat on the chair and looks too rigid, you cannot sit like that for a long time. If you lift your feet off the floor you should fall forwards, you can sense that in the top picture but not the bottom.

I can't really imagine that this picture was meant to be serious...

[keyboardclass]

I can't really imagine that this picture was meant to be serious...

Pretty much so.  Yes, it's harder work but not in the long run.  Here's one a bit less stern:

[mike1127]

A still photograph doesn't show how movement is organized. What I learned in the Feldenkrais training is that everyone grows up with asymmetries and preferred positions, and the goal in Feldenkrais is to work with these rather than challenge them too directly. Someone can have rounded shoulders, and yet still organize movement very well--- for instance, they can involve their whole body in the movement such that all parts cooperate and support each other.

To me, you look "braced," but a still photograph is only part of the story anyway.

I have a lot of bracing and inefficiency and I'm still working on this, so I don't present myself as a model. What I do understand well, I think, is the direction I'm headed, and what tools can get me there.

[mike1127]

Quite correct.  That's why you might as well learn a score away from the piano - it's going to have to emerge from your imagination first anyway.  Though it's 90% a nonconscious process you can catch it happening if you watch closely. 

I'm confused. You seemed to object to my emphasis on imagination. Now you seem to be agreeing.

[keyboardclass]

I'm confused. You seemed to object to my emphasis on imagination. Now you seem to be agreeing.

Different folks have different meanings for imagination and it's complicated.  In my book all starts with imagination.  It's the conduit between body and soul (for want of a better word).  Or maybe leave the soul out and it is the bottom line.   Is that how you define it?

As for rounded shoulders - I can't go with that at all.   I don't think it's healthy in the long run.   Mary, and all workers, should position themselves close enough to their 'job' to not have to protract their scapula.  

[pianowolfi]

I don't think that somebody who looks like he has swallowed a broomstick can make good music, go with the musical flow, be alive, not tense and cramped. Music is life and movement.

[keyboardclass]

As one of my heroes, Bernarr Mcfadden, used to say - 'The more nearly you can assume the position which is sometimes criticized by the sarcastic statement that "He looks as though he had swallowed a poker," the more nearly you will approximate the ideal position.

[pianowolfi]

As one of my heroes, Bernarr Mcfadden, used to say - 'The more nearly you can assume the position which is sometimes criticized by the sarcastic statement that "He looks as though he had swallowed a poker," the more nearly you will approximate the ideal position.

Well whatever makes you happy, I guess....

[keyboardclass]

Or tell it to this guy:


or his boss:




 

[pianowolfi]

I don't think he is playing the piano...he has a different task to do (or did you ever see a serious pianist play in a kneeling position?), which in itself looks much more natural and harmonious than your broomstick position, btw.

[keyboardclass]

or these kids?  Do they stand a chance at movement and music?


and this kid has no chance with his straight shoulders!  May as well start looking for that office job now!

[pianowolfi]

Still: Are they playing the piano or doing a pirouette?
Link me to one of your youtube vids where you are actually playing in the position you recommend above

P.S if anything in the photo of yourself looked even remotely comparable to the natural tonus that boy near the tree is in, I wouldn't have said anything against it!

[keyboardclass]

You seem to have forgotten we're talking about shoulders - retracted vs protracted.  Here's about the only video where you see my upper arms - they hang from suitably placed scapulas.

[mike1127]

As I said, a still photograph is showing a very small part of the story.

And how you get into a position is critical. Do you become straighter through muscular effort, or through relaxation? It can only do harm to force oneself into a posture. That's why I don't put much emphasis on static postures. It's just not worth talking about "rounded shoulders" because it doesn't teach anyone how to organize movement gracefully, and a conscious effort to change the static position almost always is an "efforting" and not an "allowing."

Dancing is different because the physical appearance is everything. A position may be inefficient or over-efforting, but if it looks good, the teacher may approve. The kid nearest the camera looks to be straining much more than the other one.

EDIT: while I was composing this you posted the video. The alignment of your back, head, and shoulders remains pretty constant, but I can't tell (not sure anyone can visually) to what degree this is something you "allow" versus "do." Maybe you can explain more about that.

[keyboardclass]

It's just not worth talking about "rounded shoulders" because it doesn't teach anyone how to organize movement gracefully, and a conscious effort to change the static position almost always is an "efforting" and not an "allowing."

And that's where I must disagree.  The shoulders as the little kid shows are not naturally rounded - it's a particular Feldenkrais thing because he was sure the knuckles faced forward.  He was wrong.

[pianowolfi]

You seem to have forgotten we're talking about shoulders - retracted vs protracted.  Here's about the only video where you see my upper arms - they hang from suitably placed scapulas.

See, you're going with the flow and actually you forget about your theoretical position while you're playing and thinking only of the music. This is so much different from your posture photo.

[keyboardclass]

The shoulders are the same!

[keyboardclass]

EDIT: while I was composing this you posted the video. The alignment of your back, head, and shoulders remains pretty constant, but I can't tell (not sure anyone can visually) to what degree this is something you "allow" versus "do." Maybe you can explain more about that.

I do yoga.  Does that help?  And actually I'm kneeling - take that wolfi!

[mike1127]

And that's where I must disagree.  The shoulders as the little kid shows are not naturally rounded - it's a particular Feldenkrais thing because he was sure the knuckles faced forward.  He was wrong.

Do you have a reference for this?

It's an odd thing to say about Feldenkrais, because he was all about organization of movement in a variety of activities. I would think he would say that the knuckles change position constantly depending on the needs of the activity. (EDIT: in 500 hours of professional Feldenkrais training, no teacher ever mentioned that the knuckles prefer to face forward.)

Let me clarify a few things. These are two different things:

• Saying that the ideal resting posture is shoulders neutral.
• Telling a piano student to try to keep their shoulders neutral.

That's because a piano student will most likely interpret the second one as requiring effort. And, there are an infinity of ways to organize an effort to keep the shoulders neutral. Everyone will attempt to do that via their habitual organization.

Alexander teachers often mention that if they tell a student to change their posture, in 99% of cases, the student will brace their neck in order to make the change. However good it looks from the outside, inside it involves more tension.

So I'm most interested in things that really change the habitual organization.

I think that if an adult can reach an ideal organization, they would look like a beautiful child. But, Feldenkrais and Alexander identified more indirect means for getting there, more indirect than trying to imitate a child through conscious effort.

I learned in my Feldenkrais training that we have habits about preferred positions and organizations coming from a very young age. My preemie nephew much preferred to keep his head to the left as he lay in the incubator, something probably picked up in the womb. I'm not saying that people should do nothing about rounded shoulders if that particular quirk is impeding their movement. But, realistically, no one is going to have perfect organization. It's more effective to work with the quirks rather than against them.