Does there come a time . . . ?

[oldguy]

Hello,
This is my first post .

I enjoy tremendously reading the enlightened comments on this forum and I have an important question to ask.

Does there come a time when you say I just cannot do this?

I have been learning for just over four years, I have an excellent teacher who is very knowledgeable, helpful and supportive.

As far as pracising, I usually put in about 2 - 3 hours a day,  doing scales, arpeggios, sight reading, followed by practising my pieces, at which I work at each section assiduously for 20 minutes, take a break for five and then try another section and so on. And I enjoy it and am not bored.

My teacher says I am doing ok, and not to worry.
My progress though is very limited, I can just about get through things like Bach, prelude in C, that short Chopin prelude in A and  I am just starting on Debussy's Le petite Negre and I know it is going to take 6 months or so before I can even get through it.

One of the pieces I am working on at the moment is a Little Prelude by Bach, so simple but I am unable to play it through without many errors - pieces with counterpoint are really difficult for me.

I have everything going for me, a good teacher, time to practice, encouragement from my wife and I am massively motivated, even so it is not happening. I don't even want to perform in public or anything remotely ambitious, just for my own enjoyment, but I am reaching the point where it may be sensible to face the facts that it never is going to happen and move on to something else.

I love music and the piano but if this is the level I am going to stay at then as a senior I need to give it up and try something else before major frustration sets in.

Any crumbs of comfort out there?

[liszmaninopin]

Well, I'll try to offer what I can...

Your question is a very personal one.  I definitely feel that anybody can learn at least moderately advanced piano repertoire with a substantial investment of time and a high level of interest.

Do you really want to learn the piano?  I mean really want to learn piano, or are you just trying to occupy your mind and pretending to yourself that you enjoy it.  There is a difference there.

This is absolutely not meant in a negative way, but with 2-3 hours per day for 4 years of work, you don't seem to have progressed very far.  It could be any of several factors-perhaps the way you practice is not efficient.  Just casually playing through your lesson pieces isn't really practice-one needs to buckle down and concentrate.

Perhaps you don't focus enough on your assigned pieces, and like to explore other repertoire.  There's nothing inherently wrong with exploring the repertoire, but don't neglect your assignments.

When you practice a piece, try to find out which sections are giving you the most difficulty.  I mean, take Le Petite Negre.  Play through it.  Certain areas are bound to give you trouble-practice those areas most.  Don't neglect easy spots, but concentrate your practice energies on the areas that need attention.

If you can specifically isolate your trouble spots, we could help you more.  However, that's really your teacher's job.  Are you sure that your teacher is a good one?  Listen to his/her other students, and gauge the relitive difficulty of their repertoire.  If there are a bunch of students at your level, but few beyond, you might want to get a new teacher.

Finally, to relieve frustration, consider purchasing a book of very easy music.  What style of music do you like?  You might be happy just learning some simple transcriptions of popular movie and television songs from the 20's through today.  Find a few simple "project pieces" that you'd like to learn, and devote some time daily to them.  It might be fun.

Oh, by the way, welcome to the forum!

[oldguy]

Thanks for replying so quickly Liszmaninopin.
Yes, I really do want to learn, that's what makes it so frustrating.
I take my practice very seriously, and it is constructed very much on the lines Bernhard outlined a while back, short bursts of concentration on limited sections, a break and then onto another section. I don't return to those sections for 48 hours to allow them to sink in.
For instance, today I practised the opening 6/7 bars of Le Petit Negre for 20 minutes right hand then a five minute break and the same bars left hand for 20 minutes.
Then onto some simple Mozart variations, picking out the bits I have trouble with (most of it) using the same method and finishing with the simple Bach prelude. I will alternate this tomorrow with a different 3 pieces, ie I rotate 6 (simple) pieces over 2 days. The book I am working on is Denis Agays Classics to Moderns book 4 and have been on it since January.
I don't feel it is my methods or my teacher I just feel it is something else - maybe I just want to do it too much.

Should just point out two things, my teacher thinks I probably practice for too long and his most-used comment is "You don't do slow, do you".

[liszmaninopin]

What kinds of difficulties do you have, exactly?  What I mean is, do you have trouble memorizing it?  Or is your problem wrong notes?  Rythmical difficulties?  Bringing it up to speed?  Dynamics?  Legato & Staccato?

Perhaps I could offer some suggestions if you could tell me exactly which parts of which piece give you trouble.

I guess from your teacher's comment that you have difficulty bringing out the details.  Slow practice helps one pick up all the little details of a piece.

I doubt your problem is that you want to do too much, if you are having these kinds of difficulties after 4 years of study.

I would like to help you, but unless I know specifically what your problems are, I don't know how much I can offer besides generalizations.

[goalevan]

I suggest if you really genuinely want to keep learning the piano you stick with it. I have had breakthroughs at the least expected times, and left myself amazed at my progress. You will keep improving if you stick with it, maybe a little bit slower than some but if you really enjoy what you're doing you should find that it's all worth it.

Also you said that you play a 20 minute section of a piece then wait at least 48 hours to play it again, while working on other pieces in the meantime. Have you tried working 20 minutes on several different parts of the same piece, and then reviewing them the next 3-5 days until you have them mastered and ingrained into memory? I've been doing this and having some pretty good results. Maybe switching between pieces every day would be a bit of an overload for you. I don't know, just something to think about. Best of luck

[bernhard]

Any crumbs of comfort out there?

Yes, here is some comfort:

https://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,,627720,00.html
(“On not being able to play the piano” – Alan Rusbridger, editor of the Guardian reveals his frustration at not being able to play the piano as well as he wished after several years of lessons).


https://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,628636,00.html
(Some answers to the above article)

By the way, if you like these articles, there are several things I disagree with Alan Rusbridge that may be worthy exploring.

I agree with most of Liszmaninopin said, and I would just add the following:

1.      What exactly seems to be the problem? In my experience teaching adults two things usually present insurmountable obstacles (for a moment – then they are surmounted): Memory problems, and physical co-ordination.

2.      Many people approach piano pieces with the idea of “difficulty” in mind. They actually thrive on it (just count how many threads in this forum deal with difficulty of pieces, or with “the most difficult piece ever written”). In a sense they expect and they want to experience difficulty when playing. And yet, the best pianists play the most difficult pieces as if it was very easy. How can they do it? It is actually very simple. For them it is easy!. They were not born that way, they just worked hard and for a long time to make the pieces easy. So I would suggest that you keep this in mind whenever you practise: The aim of your practise is to make whatever you are playing easy. Investigate movements, fingerings, positions that will make the passage/piece completely comfortable and easy. This goes as well for the matter of mistakes. Why should one make mistakes at all (wrong notes, wrong rhythms, etc.)? Consider walking. When we walk (a very complex physical activity) usually we do not trip all over ourselves at every step. It is true that every now and them we may end up flat on the floor, but these are rare occurrences. Likewise, there is no reason to keep making mistakes, unless we have somehow convinced ourselves that we must make them. Does that make sense?

In any case, you are not alone. Everyone goes through the phase where a piece is literally impossible. Your job (and your teacher’s) is to make it easy.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

I have just read your reply to Lizsmaninopin and I would like to make a few more comments:

short bursts of concentration on limited sections, a break and then onto another section. I don't return to those sections for 48 hours to allow them to sink in.

Don’t wait 48 hours. Wait 24 hours. The reason is simple. Whatever you practise today, tomorrow you will still have 90% retained, but the day after tomorrow the figure drops dramatically to 20%. One night sleep in between sessions is fine for sinking in (and necessary), but two nights sleep and you start loosing too much. Three nights sleep and you are back to zero! Which is one of the reasons why practising two times a week is useless; the minimum is three times a week, the optimum is seven times a week, and practising the same section severl times a day is again useless.

For instance, today I practised the opening 6/7 bars of Le Petit Negre for 20 minutes right hand then a five minute break and the same bars left hand for 20 minutes.

Here is a much better and much more efficient way: Alternate hands. Play bars 6/7 with the RH once. Then play the LH once. Do that for 20 minutes (if you must, you may be able to get away with 10 minutes or even less). This way the hands are always refreshed. 20 minutes on a single hand! Wow, this is tough! Ideally you should never work on a single hand for more than 10-15 seconds. Of course you alternate hands only when you got the hang of the section, before that you may have to repeat several times the same hand. But as soon as you can, alternate hands.

There: I just cut your practice time in half!

Here is another thing to watch out for. Practice has a bell shaped curve. You start not so good. Then as you repeat, you improve to a point where you are really good. This is the moment to stop, so that your unconscious is left with a perfect repeat to sink in. If you continue to practise, you will notice that it quickly deteriorates (simply because of fatigue, both mental and physical). Most people at this stage start repeating frantically in order to get back to the optimum results they were experiencing just a couple of minutes before. Of course it does not happen, it just deteriorates more and more. So when you finally stop, the last image in your subconscious is the one full of mistakes. So next morning, when you start again, everything is dreadful. Does that make sense?

Pianists practise far too much. Some people think 8 hours a day on the same section is something to be proud of. It is not. It just shows ignorance.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[oldguy]

I know this might sound crazy and maybe is not specific enough but after four years the main problem seems to be hand co-ordination.

Most of the pieces I have learned I could probably play them, in time, and correctly hands separately.

It is playing the two hands together that it so difficult, which is why anything with counterpoint is hard.

Playing hands together seems to take an inordinate mental effort which is not there when I play hands separate.

I know I feel incredibley tense when I play and feel unable to free up, I don't know whether the tension is caused by my difficulties or whether it is the other way around.

I am a long way from giving up yet and encouraged by goalevan's comment that breakthrough's do come, but I could sure do with one right now.

[pies]

­

[pianoannie]

It is playing the two hands together that it so difficult, which is why anything with counterpoint is hard.

Playing hands together seems to take an inordinate mental effort which is not there when I play hands separate.

Does your difficulty playing HT happen primarily in counterpoint pieces, rather than other styles?  Some students excel at counterpoint, but for most students (in my experience) it is very difficult.  Hopefully your teacher is giving you various strategies or tips to improve your playing, such as listening to a recording of the counterpoint piece, so that you are sure that you clearly hear both parts in your mind, as well as how they fit together.  Also, in reading counterpoint, you have to read more "vertically" rather than "horizontally."  I mean, you have to really see how the 2 parts stack up on top of each other, rather than just playing, for example, a RH melody over sustained LH chords, where your eyes can quickly scan across the page horizontally.  I don't know if that makes sense, but it's something a teacher once told me that helped.
Also, is counterpoint something you have a huge desire to play?  I consider many counterpoint/baroque pieces to be in that category I call "sounds easy, but is hard."  Many students find pieces from the romantic era, or perhaps classical,  more satisfying, in that they are more likely to "sound hard, but are easier."

Lastly, you said you have an excellent teacher, who tells you that you are doing ok and not to worry.  But does s/he truly give you effective strategies for improving?  Are there specific things you learn each week that help you overcome some specific problem you were having in a piece?  I'm curious what things your teacher has told you to help you with your counterpoint pieces?

[Bob]

Counterpoint is more difficult to play.  If you listen, you have two lines to hear -- like listening to two different converstations at once.

It is more difficult to play hands together -- just having both hands working at once.

On the positive side, if you keep working at it, you're coordination does improve eventually.   It's a kind of long term progress that one day you notice your mind has adjusted.

For counterpoint, you can try seeing which notes move in the same direction and which move in opposites (which means your hands move in a mirrored way).  Thinking on thought to control both hand motions can help.  

[goalevan]

what exactly do you all mean by counterpoint?

[liszmaninopin]

I just had an idea that would perhaps gradually shift your mind into understanding counterpoint.  Unfortunately, I can't think of any specific piece selections off the top of my mind that would serve the purpose, but most compilations of beginners music should have something alog these lines.

First, try playing a piece where most of the action is in the right hand-with a very simple left hand accompaniment.  Once you can coordinate that well, try to find a piece in which most of the movement is in the left hand, with a simple melodic accompaniment in the right.  If you can coordinate these, then move on to pieces with more complex melodic and harmonic accompaniment parts.  Perhaps a piece where the voice switches from one hand to another.  Perhaps one that has sections when they move parallel to each other, apart from each other, etc.  After you can fully control your hands in simpler pieces, perhaps you could try to learn an easier Bach prelude to give you a more interesting into to counterpoint and such.  Then, play the fugue to give yourself the ultimate in counterpoint challenge!  You will have also added a complete piece to your repertoire!

Also, perhaps you should vary your scales to practice hand independence.  Take a C Major scale.  Play the right hand notes as eighth notes, and treat the left hand notes as quarter notes.  You can also try treating any hand with staccato, legato, accented beats, etc.-anything so that you can do one thing with one hand and another thing with another hand.

Good luck!  

[liszmaninopin]

sorry, about counterpoint, here is the dictionary definition:

1 a : one or more independent melodies added above or below a given melody b : the combination of two or more independent melodies into a single harmonic texture in which each retains its linear character

[Peachy_Keen]

*pounds forehead*

Counterpoint is when you have more than one melodic phrase playing at the same time...

Hah, I finally produced some knowledge, but it seems like Liz beat me to it.  

[oldguy]

Thank you all very much for the interest and replies, certainly a lot for me to ponder on.

As I mentioned earlier I do have every confidence in my teacher - he has worked hard at ways for me to overcome my difficulties. He helps me with fingering, articulation, theoretical understanding -  everything. But the main problem is me.  We recognise that I beat myself up too much and that this is what is getting in the way of my progress.
I believe this is fairly common in adult beginners but in my case the effects are quite drastic. My reasons for my post was a reply I seen Bernhard give that after three to four years he would expect a pupil to be around grade 8 of ABRSM. I could probably scrape grade 4 after four years if I had a sympathetic examiner.
I think just getting  all this off my chest on this forum has helped and thanks again for all your advice.
Regards.

[liszmaninopin]

Don't become discouraged by what you read here!  By all means, some students progress more and others less.  I've been playing for 4 years also, and am well beyond grade 8.  But then again, I started when I was 12, so age might have something to do with that.

It's very hard to give quality advice online, but good luck, and if you have any specific problems I'll do my best to help you!

[Bob]

Some things just take time too.

Some things you have to figure out for yourself.

[janice]

I have not read any of the replies to this, I've only read your post.  So what I say may or may not go against what the others are saying.  But I feel strongly that you should continue.  Why?  Well, it brings you joy and satisfaction.  Period.  You love music.  You are retired, and it sounds like you do not have any dreams of being a concert pianist--so it sounds like you are in touch with reality.  Back to what I said, that it brings you joy and satisfaction.  And that fact, oldguy, is all that matters.  Don't doubt your reasoning for taking lessons and continuing.  In the world of classical music, many have lost the pure JOY of music making.  Our self-criticalness often robs us of the joy.  I try to jolt myself into reality when I feel my blood pressure going up all because I keep screwing up a passage.  I am out of college and I do not play in competitions (too old--lol) so basicially I have NO outside pressure (just self-pressure!) to perform well.  I play solos at church.  But I "try" to take a deep breath and keep everything in perspective.  But I am also a perfectionist, by nature.  How can the two co-exist?  How can I be a perfectionist yet never get very upset or want to give up?  Good question--LOL--I have yet to master this one!  It's all in how I CHOOSE to view things.  You, oldguy (I feel bad calling you that! lol), seem to have that pure JOY that comes from making music.  You have something that the vast majority of musicians have lost, because of pressure--from both within and without--to be perfect or near perfect.  It seems that you are asking yourself why you do this.  I think the answer is "why not?"  Why not do something JUST BECAUSE.  I wish there were more people in the world like you, who have the time and who make the time for something that brings them joy, and for no other reason.  

[oldguy]

Thanks Janice for the reply.

Actually I am not retired, I wish I was, I just work away and only get home once every two weeks, I have an apartment near my work so I am on my own a lot hence all the time I get to practice.
My lesson pattern is a little strange and I have been thinking about this. When I am home I am there for five days and I fit in two 1hour lessons, one on the Friday and the other the following Monday, not perfect but I think I need the 2 lessons, just wish they weren't so close together.
Yes, I do get a lot of pleasure from what I do but in the cold light of dawn I sometimes wonder if I am kidding myself . . . so I get up and do some more practising.