grand piano suggestion

[dianeb]

We have around $3000-$4000 budgeted for a piano to replace our old McPhail upright.  What would you suggest?  A low budget grand (5'2 - 5'4) or a better quality used console or upright?  I've looked at a Yahama model 450 for around $2000, but it seems ringy, especially in upper range.  Am I crazy to hope for a decent grand in this range.  I teach (very part time) mostly beginners now and am only a recreational player myself.  Any help is much appreciated!  I get so overwhelmed looking at Craigs lists and the music dealers seem to all have the perfect instrument for me, often with conflicting opinions and suggestions about how to spend my money!

[cmrva]

Amateur advice here, not connected with the industry
I'm shopping myself (Although with a larger budget) and the advice I keep hearing is that if you can only afford a very small (Less than 5-5 or so) grand, a quality upright will sound as good and possibly better. I have never liked most upright action, it seems much different to me than just about any grand and face it, does not look as nice in your living room.

You could go much older in a grand to get larger and get a piano tech locally to check out the grands before you buy. My head keeps telling me to get a Yamaha, but frankly for me many of the Korean and Chinese pianos (Or their stencil brands- made by a factory and then a decal of some brand someone owns the name of is put on) sound as good or better. I sold pianos many years ago for a short time when Young Chang, for instance, was just getting into the US market. It was a tough sale then and the pianos required more tunings than Yamaha or Steinway (We were a Steinway dealer) in the first year of ownership. I was not impressed at the time. Now as I am looking to buy, every dealer has some Korean made piano that they rave about, and it seems the Chinese pianos are trying to get established like the Korean ones did 30 years ago in the US. Can you afford a cheap piano now and then maybe some money later to make it perfect? If not, I think you should think about a reallyt nice (As tall as you can go) upright. To me as I look now $5-6k is the absolute rock bottom that will get you a decent used grand.

[john90]

More amateur advice. I don't think you have enough cash. If you really know piano internals, you can find a nice grand for 4k that you can keep in shape yourself relatively easily and cost effectively. For now I would DIY work on the upright you have to get it playing as well as you can yourself. Build up your expertise. Once you know how difficult it is to make a worn out action feel the way you are happy with, you will hopefully rule out lots of lost causes. There will be a 60 year old grand languishing somewhere, hardly played, in your budget. I saw a nice Schiedmayer grand, turn of the century, in your price range at a local sale. Owned by a local University Professor and part of an estate sale, was maintained and played OK, it went for 3K, but only because I was bidding also. Might have gone for just over 2k without me there. I let it go, as I was looking for something almost for free.

I see Steinway Grands needing restoration advertised in the US for $6K to $9k. I have played quite a bit on a little used Hamburg Steinway almost 60 years old. The touch is sublime. The stuff in my local dealer, rebuilt Steinways, Bosendorfers, Yamahas, that have seen many concerts, don't have that 'new car' feel that this old Steinway still has. My approach would be to look at a few of these restoration projects, and find one good enough to last another 20 years or so on a DIY basis. It doesn't have to play as good as new, or hold tune for more than 2 months, just play better than some tarted up 35 year old import for sale at a local dealer for the same money. If you picked one with a nice action, one that has not been restored, and can tune it yourself, you could be on to a winner. Ignoring sound quality which is subjective, in the 60 to 90 year old grand piano market, Steinway were one of the best made, which makes it easier for you to work on, and hopefully more reliable.

I would be interested to hear what others think about the above, having never actually tried it myself.

[keys60]

If you can venture out of that "Steinway' mentality, you can find good quality older grands in decent shape for less in a Knabe, Chickering, Wever, Steck, Sohmer as well as a few others in the mid 5 foot range. You may have to stretch your budget a bit.

[scottmcc]

I think a key question for you is "how good is your ear?"

some people truly can't hear the difference between a 3k instrument and a 30k instrument, for others it makes all the difference.  after a lot of playing around, I discovered that my ear is about 50k, but unfortunately, my budget isn't, but that's why I work.

a used, but well cared for instrument is probably a better investment than brand new.  either way, it's like a car or any other big purchase--the sticker price is only the beginning of the actual cost.

[cmrva]

Good and varied advice. One thing we are not thinking about is giving lessons on this piano. This person needs one that is working well and sounds at least pretty good, plus stays in tune.

Wish you were near me, I am giving away a 5ft Hardman grand from 1928, still plays well but would ultimately need restoration. My kids took lessons on it for 6 years and I purchased it 10 years ago for $3,500. One poster said to do just what I did, get a "classic" (More than 40 less than 100 yrs old) grand and live with it. I found mine on Craigslist from a guy that gets throwaways or dirt cheap pianos and rebuilds or at least repairs. He lists 5-10 per month on our local Craigslist and provided free delivery. Giving mine away because I don't want a trade in to mess ith the discount I get negotiating on a newer used piano from a store or if I buy from a private owner.

[john90]

Good and varied advice. One thing we are not thinking about is giving lessons on this piano. This person needs one that is working well and sounds at least pretty good, plus stays in tune.

Wish you were near me, I am giving away a 5ft Hardman grand from 1928, still plays well but would ultimately need restoration. My kids took lessons on it for 6 years and I purchased it 10 years ago for $3,500. One poster said to do just what I did, get a "classic" (More than 40 less than 100 yrs old) grand and live with it.

My suggestion to get a Steinway, for $7k to $9K, 60 to 100 yrs old. As, keys60 indirectly points out, "Steinway Mentality" puts a floor on the value as a carcass for restoration. When you carefully choose a 'restoration case', and are done with it, unrestored, after 10 years, someone under the Steinway Mentality effect will hopefully get over emotional and buy and collect it for what you paid. Most shops restring, repolish and fit a new Renner action in their restoration. They may do this even if the action and strings have a good 30 years of home use left in them, The untested idea is that some of these restoration cases on offer will have usable strings and actions.

What I wonder is, cost wise, could the circa $8K Steinway give as much quality playing, over 10 years as the $3.5K Hardman did. Perhaps not? What would costs and losses look like for both. Would it be possible to get the Steinway up to a decent enough level yourself without great expense. Old Grands should be easier/cheaper to keep going than uprights.

I can't help but think you would get something for the Hartman if you put it on ebay with a demo on youtube. It is almost a crime not to.

[cmrva]

As corny as this may sound, I don't need the few hundred bucks I could get out of my Hardman, rather would love to see someone with no funds who loves playing get this instrument. Trying that route, to see if someone would like but can't buy a piano. Will make me feel good to pass along some joy in this current economic climate.

On a second note, I just played a Baldwin "R" (5'8") from the 80's that has new strings, new action and a new pinblock (All within the last 18 months anyway) for $8k from a piano store that will close its doors in 11 days sadly. They have 3 other stores about 90 miles away so I would get a 1 year warranty and a free tuning or two.

I have no history with Baldwins other than know Bruce Hornsby uses them exclusively. I keep reading "If you can't afford a Steinway, get a pre-Gibson Baldwin or older Mason-Hamlin". What do you guys think? As I posted before, I really wanted to love a Yamaha C3 as it is in my price range, but I haven't been blown away by the last 4-5 I tried. I thought a bit larger Pramberger Young Chang sounded twice as good in the lower register as the Yamahas. This Baldwin at 5'8" had rumbling, tight and clear bass notes- sounded as good as the Yamaha C7 I played right next to it. The top octave sounded light to me but I can't remember if I played others much up there.

So... Baldwin at 25 yrs old rebuilt at $8k- good deal or not? I never trust the sales pitch and these guys swore thy have $5k invested in this piano in restoration and that it's the best deal in the house (They have $50k pianos there for 50% off and they still said this is a steal). I have up to $12k to spend (I could go more but I can't justify banging Eagles tunes just for my own amusement for much more than that- one kid goes to college in August and the other in 9th grade so this is my toy (Was going to be a 70's Vetter or 60's mustang but I think a piano feels like a smarter purchase in this economy). I am considering a newer 6'1" Young Chang and a 5'3" newer Kawai at $10k each or this. Am I crazy?

[richard black]

In most countries with a long history of piano ownership, it's very much a buyer's market for elderly grand pianos. You have a high chance of finding something if you are patient.

[keys60]

What John said is true, that many of the 60 Y.O Steinways eligible for restoration projects still have a decent action and sound, plus, if restored at your own pace, will retain a greater value than the pianos I have mentioned. My daughter played an old Hamburg O at Queens College that was nothing to look at. I was pushed in a corner and hardly used due to its age, but the action was one of the best I've ever played. If that were for sale for 6-9k, I'd have pounced on it. I did mention those brands because restored, they can be had for a fraction of the cost. Many at the cost of an unrestored Steinway. It really depends on what your looking for. Lower cost rebuilt or at least newer and less used or a superb piano that should be rebuilt.
The above mentioned American built piano mentioned (forgot Baldwin) are good quality pianos.