How to improvise?

[pianisten1989]

There has been quite many question about how to improvise. So here it goes!

Ask questions, and someone will hopefully answer!

[ongaku_oniko]

Let's put the link here since the first post doesn't really directly address the topic in the split thread, so might be confusing.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=40744.0

I think we should, with the permission of ted, put his little recording in the first post of this thread, along with some of the more general comments that can apply to everyone in the first post, since most of the time people read the first post and not so much the middle.

Anyway, in continuing the discussion here,

Derek, Ted, quantum,

I think you may have hit the nail right on the head. As I was going to breakfast today, after listening to ted's lesson, I realized the same thing. It's not so much that my classical techniques is better than my improvisation techniques, It's just that I don't have any techniques but want to play like I do. I guess really knowing the scales well is the key (no pun intended).

*I just realized it's not so much you hit it on the head, it's just I haven't been reading and understanding your posts properly*

Let me explain;

I never really knew anything about improvisation. In fact, I think I didn't even believe people could improvise. But when I starting hearing people improvise, I became shocked at the effects. The playing sounds so refined, better than a classical piece hat I would work on for months. You can't hear a mistake at all, and it sounds just like a real piece!

I am a lazy person. Very very lazy person. This has caused me to almost fail highschool, fail grade 10 piano, and doing really poorly in University at the moment. But the reason I bring this up, is that I guess at some point in time, without realising it, I think I've began to think of improvisation as "a easy way out". I mean, playing a beautiful piece on the spot with no preparation... a lot beter than taking months to compose something and then to learn to play it...

I naively thought that I could just crank out like 5 pieces in an hour, and then "transpose" it on a computer program and wow, 5 compositions done.

But now I realize the immense amount of effort needed to be put into improving (Wow I'm a genius with words today, improving can be understood as short for improvising or just improving). Scratch that, I am beginning to understand. My musical paradigms really have shifted so many times in these past few weeks, with my own practise and the help of the nice folks on this website. It's really amazing. The shift in my musical understand really changes my perspectives on life in general.

I must say I never really knew much about improvising, but I think I am beginning to understand and appreciate its complexity.


However, I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but from your guys' advice and especially ted's lesson, I think I'm beginning to understand that what I really want isn't improvising. I want to ultimately be able to write out the melodies in my head for others to play, should anyone ever want to. For me personally, I feel that just improvising is... not really satifactory. I mean you're starting from almost nothing every single time, and while that does produce interesting results sometimes, it is my belief that without enough thought and work put in, a certain amount of depth can never be reached.

That doesn't mean I don't appreciate improvising, though. I feel that it can be a good springboard to composing, and somtimes you can draw out ideas from improvisations and bring them into your compositions. And I guess improvising in itself I guess, feeds the soul, so to speak, and gives off some satisfactory result on its own. I think I will continue to try improvnig, but I guess I need to first get my techniques up to a decent level. Then I might be able to tackle my classical pieces as well.

I hope I don't sound too offensive, and I hope that, well, you don't mind helping such a peron with such unpure thoughts, just wanting an easy way out of things.

Ongaku Oniko

[Derek]

Hi ongaku,

I'm glad you're going to keep trying it. You're right---if your goals are specifically to write for other people---improvisation may not be for you. It is a very selfish activity in a way, in that you're primarily playing for yourself, for pleasure. If you do not find the sounds you create pleasing from the very start, you may not go very far with it. I think in a way that should be the first thing a beginner must know about improvisation---if you start out saying: "I will only be happy with my music if  the very first thing I do is create a complex composition of some kind" it may put a damper on progress in improvisation. But if you say instead: "I am happy that I am creating this sound" you can go as far as you want! Maybe you need John Cage's attitude about sounds...love them just as they are. Of course, depending on who you are that may mean banging pots and pans together as John Cage did, or, if you're a pianist, it might mean playing scales and chords in a way that pleases you.

At one point I felt as you did that improvisation could not possibly match composition in depth. However, I no longer believe this is true. Listen to some improvisations by people on this website even. There are many pieces I've heard here which sound very deep to me (I would not count myself among these, though I do enjoy my own music).  And we have historical anecdotes about how wonderful improvisation was...George Sand said of Chopin that his compositions were but "pale shadows" of his improvisations. I also recall an anecdote in CPE Bach's "True Art of playing Keyboard Instruments" that somebody was trying to build a mechanical device to record improvisations. It was clearly highly valued at one time, it is too bad western classical music lost this.

I think you'll find it difficult to offend in here. Most of us are so happy, so euphoric with improvisation we're practically high all the time. We'll just be like YEAH MAN. THAT'S AWESOME. It'd be like trying to offend the lotus eaters in "The Odyssey." We'll just keep saying...here...try a lotus (improv)...it's sublime!

[ongaku_oniko]

It's not that I'm trying to write music for other people, I'm not. The only people I really want to listen to my music is me, my parents, and my grand parents.

The thing is, it feels like a sort of a waste when you finally found this awesome sound, but you can never get it again. It's just a one time deal. But I agree, sometimes one time deals are the best.

My grandfather was telling me how the best calligraphy artist in ancient China once wrote a calligraphy of this poem, which is still the most magnificient piece of calligraphy to this day, and even though the same person tried it many times later, he could not find his original depth and expression again, thus he destroyed every other copy there was.

So it's not like I'm playing music for others, on the contrary, it's the opposite.

BTW, please don't compare anything to John Cage when talking with me, because even heaven sounds like hell when it's compared with John Cage I cannot stand his "music". I hate it even more than you hate Xenakis

[Derek]

Haha, I've started a new thread about John Cage. I invite you to join me there and we can discuss it there. Let's keep additional discussion in this thread on topic. 

[ted]

The thing is, it feels like a sort of a waste when you finally found this awesome sound, but you can never get it again. It's just a one time deal. But I agree, sometimes one time deals are the best.

I think I understand this. You desire the spontaneity of improvisation combined with the traditional visual permanence of a score ? That little dilemma has concerned people for a long time. These days, using digital pianos, of course we do have the ability to print our improvisations. The trouble is that it produces the pitches accurately but, for all but the very simplest music, nothing else. We are still faced with the task of transforming the jumble of notes into a score which is communicable, and which, when interpreted, is likely to resemble the original idea. If you improvise in rhythms which are to a large extent notational the problem is considerably lessened. However, many (most of mine !) improvised rhythms are impossible to notate anywhere near satisfactorily and unambiguously.

In short, most written compositions are to a great extent conceived for notation in the first place. Improvisation can still be used as a solution from which the crystals of a composition slowly emerge, possibly over  a long time and many sessions. I think very many composers of piano music have worked in that way.

But the most important consideration is the it not an "either/or" choice. You can compose and improvise and each can feed the other over a lifetime. 

[ongaku_oniko]

I think I understand this. You desire the spontaneity of improvisation combined with the traditional visual permanence of a score ? That little dilemma has concerned people for a long time. These days, using digital pianos, of course we do have the ability to print our improvisations. The trouble is that it produces the pitches accurately but, for all but the very simplest music, nothing else. We are still faced with the task of transforming the jumble of notes into a score which is communicable, and which, when interpreted, is likely to resemble the original idea. If you improvise in rhythms which are to a large extent notational the problem is considerably lessened. However, many (most of mine !) improvised rhythms are impossible to notate anywhere near satisfactorily and unambiguously.

In short, most written compositions are to a great extent conceived for notation in the first place. Improvisation can still be used as a solution from which the crystals of a composition slowly emerge, possibly over  a long time and many sessions. I think very many composers of piano music have worked in that way.

But the most important consideration is the it not an "either/or" choice. You can compose and improvise and each can feed the other over a lifetime.  

Yes, this is what I was trying to say in my first post here.

And I totally agree. One of my biggest frustrations in composing is that my melodies never fit in a 4/4, 3/4 or whatever other time there is. Sometimes I wanna just get rid of that bar, and have one, single very long bar. Actually, not sometimes, all of the time.

Oh, but I'm not necessarily looking for some "visual" score. I never even look at the score when I play anyway. It's more of being able to replicate what I just played.

[Derek]

I haven't tried this out myself yet, but I'm told that this program Piano Booster can notate without barlines. Basically horizontal distance is time.  I'm not absolutely sure it is what we're talking about---as it seems to tell you whether you're "on the beat" but still place your notes where you played them; before or after the beat. Thus you could ignore that it knows about beats at all and just create whatever you want.

I'm also told MuseScore can adjust the size of a measure to any number of beats you please.

I hope to check both of these out eventually---but failing that, I hope to create something like pianobooster, but which knows literally nothing about a beat. Horizontal distance will be mapped to time, thus there will be no note values. This will allow a free improvisation to be notated---though the performance of it may lack the precision of subdivided beats, it will still be accurate. In other words, to sight read such a score you'd have to imagine a vertical line moving across the notes, and execute the notes as the line intersects with them. Perhaps computers will aid in sight reading such scores in the future.

[ted]

In that case, you could probably play back your digital recording slowly and follow the keys. I don't know anything about digital instruments but I think Derek has explored these ways of working and he might shed more light on the process. Oops ! I see he has already done so and posted before me.

As far as physically "falling off the scale" is concerned, that is just discipline. Because improvisation is acquired in a non-serial manner it does not mean that we can do without work and discipline. Discipline and freedom are the two sides of one coin, in improvisation as with most things.

I hope my talking about it did not convey the impression that improvisation is some sort of easy state which requires no work at all. That is quite contrary to the truth.

[ongaku_oniko]

No no, definitely niot.


I said in my post, that I finally am beginning to understand the amount of work needed to be put into improvising. That I was naive in thinking it was an easy way out.

[pianisten1989]

I haven't had time to read all of it (it's reaally many words!) But have you ever composed? I think that is a good start. It's not like you just can start, and will know how everything sounds like before youv'e analysed it. Maybe try to compose a small melody with a few chords. Then you change a small bit, maybe just add a trill or something, every time you play it from the start. I think that would help...

[ongaku_oniko]

I can't compose, because I don't know how to manifest my melodies on the piano or on paper.

So even if I can "compose" in my head, I can't write it out or play it.

Keep posting ur improvs people, there haven't been any new ones in a few days

[pianisten1989]

Well.. "I cant play legato.. So I don't" doesn't really work, does it?

If you can't compose  a simple melody with simple chords, you will have a really hard time trying to improvise one...

[pianowolfi]

Improvising seems to me similar to walking on a dark forest path in the night. If you look straight forward on the path you don't see anything. If you look at the side, suddenly the path gets visible. You will again try to look straight ahead and the path will disappear.
It happens often when you don't really focus intentionally on it, given that you have a desire to express yourself through music, through your own music, and given that you feel this music somewhere in yourself.

It also occurs often that my students improvise "randomly" in the lessons, but as soon as I say something about it, for instance "Oh that was nice, I like it, go on please" they stop! As soon as the focus gets on it it seems to disappear.

Recently I played at a birthday party and the person who introduced me said to everybody "He's an improviser"! Well, actually I felt completely blocked! Because to me it is not (yet) something that I just "can do". Fortunately I had not been asked to give an improvisation performance but to play from my compositions

But really, that might just be me.

[Derek]

Improvising seems to me similar to walking on a dark forest path in the night. If you look straight forward on the path you don't see anything. If you look at the side, suddenly the path gets visible. You will again try to look straight ahead and the path will disappear.
It happens often when you don't really focus intentionally on it, given that you have a desire to express yourself through music, through your own music, and given that you feel this music somewhere in yourself.

I love this description of improvisation! It's so true, too!

Recently I played at a birthday party and the person who introduced me said to everybody "He's an improviser"! Well, actually I felt completely blocked! Because to me it is not (yet) something that I just "can do". Fortunately I had not been asked to give an improvisation performance but to play from my compositions
But really, that might just be me.

I haven't often played for others; but I do know that when I go to the local piano store to mess around I feel almost totally blocked, as though I have almost forgotten how to improvise save rolling around on a few arpeggios and "licks." Usually sounds pretty awful. I remember once visiting a local harpsichord maker's shop and played around on his clavichord and his harpsichord, he must have thought I'd only been playing for a year or two!

Here's a really fascinating passage from a book that I found: Solitude and the Clavichord Cult  It is not specific to clavichord playing as the first story is about a mad pianist in an insane asylum. Now, we aren't insane (or at least, we're functionally insane ), but I find striking similarities between the sort of private music making described in this book and how I feel about it, and how I believe many others here likely feel about it.

[ongaku_oniko]

I think the point before all this, is that when you're not at a certain level of proficiency, it doesn't matter where you are.

It would be like throwing me in Africa and me trying to talk with the locals.

I would know what I want to talk about, what I want to ask, but I'd have a hard time asking it.

[ted]

Recently I played at a birthday party and the person who introduced me said to everybody "He's an improviser"! Well, actually I felt completely blocked! Because to me it is not (yet) something that I just "can do". Fortunately I had not been asked to give an improvisation performance but to play from my compositions
But really, that might just be me.

I think that is just a mental trick which can be learned over time, Wolfi. I used to be the same many years ago. The problem disappears once you realise that the reactions of people in the room do not matter and that you are essentially playing for yourself alone. Improvising with a view to impressing somebody is destructive because it will stop your flow. In any case, unlike when you perform a piece, the audience cannot possibly perceive "right" or "wrong" notes because these qualities do not exist in improvisation.

In practical terms, I usually begin with a small cell, which can be anything at all, and I mean that - anything. I do not start by assuming I must immediately "develop" ideas. Mostly I just repeat the first cell rhythmically, maybe not precisely the same each time though, until something in it suggests a new cell. Then I play that cell after the same manner and so on, forming a chain of repeated ideas, each springing from the content of the previous one.

This process is actually very cold and objective, just a series of arbitrary  changing patterns, but it calms the mind in a sort of hypnotic way and excludes the surroundings. It sets up the improvisational state of mind. After a few minutes, spontaneous imperatives will occur without trying, and all the usual emotional and associative reactions will make themselves felt. When that starts to happen you can indulge them. If you find things are collapsing, just begin again with a chain of cold, objective cells. This process also ensures that you will not overshoot your technique, which event can be a trap.

[ongaku_oniko]

I think that is just a mental trick which can be learned over time, Wolfi. I used to be the same many years ago. The problem disappears once you realise that the reactions of people in the room do not matter and that you are essentially playing for yourself alone. Improvising with a view to impressing somebody is destructive because it will stop your flow. In any case, unlike when you perform a piece, the audience cannot possibly perceive "right" or "wrong" notes because these qualities do not exist in improvisation.

They can. If it sounds wrong, they think it's wrong. Sounds wrong means that the intervals are not the normal 3rds, 5ths, etc.

[ted]

Yes, perhaps, each in his own view, but the whole trick is to stop worrying about the listeners altogether, including what they may or may not consider "wrong".

[Derek]

I think the context of the style you're playing can have a dramatic effect on the perception of "wrongness." If one pursues a style that emulates common practice era such as ongaku hinted at, things like accidentally hitting a major or minor 2nd where you meant to hit a single note (I think this is the most common physical flub) can really stick out like a sore thumb. However, if you're lucky sometimes you can turn that into a suspension that sounds like it was "supposed" to be there. You have to be willing to let the mistakes change your direction---and this can produce something really interesting if you let it!

But as Ted says, it shouldn't matter. Only if you have some sort of sourpuss in your audience will anyone really care if you hit a wrong note or two. My piano teacher in college was a superb pianist, and I heard him play the Rach 2 concerto...there were a couple of flubs, but the overall performance was really good.