Discussion on learning improvisation

[ongaku_oniko]

so i got really bored today and did this.

I mostly did it in Cm, cuz I don't know how to play in b (the original theme is b, right? my ears suck so I can't really tell) but it really isn't Cm lol...

so this is what I meant when I said when I try to improv, it sounds like random notes with no rhythm or harmony whatsoever

How should I go about improving, or am I just hopeless?

[Derek]

I don't think you're hopeless at all. Welcome "officially" to the improv room  . You've made the most important first step---get comfortable with more or less randomly improvising, using some sort of melodic fragments (either a suggested one like in this thread or ones you come up with). Depending on what your tastes are you can go in any number of directions. Probably though even if your taste is not strongly connected to common practice era (I wasn't exactly certain, my guess is you're fairly eclectic from what I've read) it is still a good idea to get comfortable improvising eventually in all 24 keys. I learned kind of slowly myself, so it took me about 3 or 4 years to feel like I really was comfortable in all 24. Another thing I think really helped me was recording myself a lot...every so often I'd play some melodic fragment that I didn't realize was cool *while I was playing it* then when I'd listen I'd be like hey that was neat, and I could repeat it. I also liked to create repeatable "riffs" early on, though I'm not certain what role that played in my development. Probably I was lucky in that I didn't know very much about classical when I started, so even the simplest things I played early on I was like WOW I'm noodling in a minor scale! awesome! so---if you're already an experienced pianist, knowing lots of difficult pieces may make that more of an obstacle. But try to enjoy even the simplest things.

[ongaku_oniko]

Since I don't have perfect pitch, fur elise in C sounds the same as it does in A or E or anything else.

Which makes me wonder what's the point in doing all 24 keys, when you can't even hear the difference?


But thanks for the encouragement, derek! I'm basically into all music minus rap, hiphop, and basically anything that's popular amongst youth these days, like bieber or lady gaga.

My top two composers are probably Chopin and Rachminoff.

And I know what you mean - I'm not a great pianist, so I get that too. Even with my crappy improvs, I can only tell they're crappy because they have no real body, no real melody, rhythm or idea. But after listening to them a lot of times, it's like me listening to opus clavicembalisticum or something, I start to... like it. But I want to be able to compose or improvise something that more people can enjoy, something with more depth too.

[Derek]

I don't have perfect pitch either...I guess for me part of the reason to learn all 24 keys is so you can do interesting harmonic changes...either traditional, or sudden. Also, you can combine them, sometimes called "polytonality," or create weird scales by combining chords.  The sky is the limit. It basically just gives you more options, more power. Each key will suggest different ways of fingering, as well, which can lead to generating ideas in different ways. So even if they all sounded the same, just the different keyboard geography can help with creating new things.

That said though you can do a lot with just a few---I think for the first two years I was playing mainly in G# minor, C# minor, and maybe F# minor, and Eb minor. Somewhere along the way I realized that each time you change key by a fifth or a fourth, only one note changes... =D makes it easier to learn a new one.

[ongaku_oniko]

oh that's true.

Normally for my left hand I always try to play C-, F#-, C#-, A-, G- and B- broken chords
 (I love minor chords, major not as much).

And my right hand sorta just does whatever, usually in C or G, since there aren't so many black keys to deal with. But I see your point, I didn't really think about it before, it really does make sense. Thanks!

[birba]

so i got really bored today and did this.

I mostly did it in Cm, cuz I don't know how to play in b (the original theme is b, right? my ears suck so I can't really tell) but it really isn't Cm lol...

so this is what I meant when I said when I try to improv, it sounds like random notes with no rhythm or harmony whatsoever

How should I go about improving, or am I just hopeless?

First of all, I think you should take a step back or two.  You're biting off more than you can chew, so to speak.  It's like giving a ferrari to someone who doesn't know how to drive.  For example, you might take this theme that was presented here, and play it in all 12 keys.  ONly the theme.   Do it using the same fingering - as awkward as it may seem - then do it changing the fingering to the  most comfortable.   Then, you might take that same theme (we're still only using one hand) and turn it into a 3/4 time.  Waiting on certain notes, playing certain notes faster, etc.  And do this, too, in all 12 keys.  then, do the same thing with the left hand.
The premise of all this is to get the hand comfortable in moving around on the keyboard.
I would post something here, but it would just sound like a ballet class.       I don't have the talent I've been hearing here.

[ongaku_oniko]

What do you mean by this? That I'm not ready for improv completely, or just not really for this sort of a theme?


Or simply I should try to understand the theme more before trying to improv?

Thanks for your advice though, regardless.

[pianisten1989]

Look, that wasn't all bad was it?

Maybe you should practise like if you were composing it - stop whenever it sounds like you want, and try to find the right chord or note. And I don't know, but mine wasn't all improvised - like from nothing. I waited couple of days trying to get inspiration and somewhat played it in my head, trying to find notes and chords.

Do you ever read theory and ear training?

[ongaku_oniko]

I have done harmony level 4 RCME, history 4 and rudiments 2.

So I have a little theory knowledge... doesn't help at all for my playing though.

Ear training... well I listen to a lot of music, if that counts... I don't specifically train though.. don't know how.

actually I have another melody for this theme, I hae no idea how to play it on the piano though.

I have a lot of melodies in my head, but everytime I try to write it down, it disappears.

I always thought I was really creative, and that I had a lot of original melodies.

It was only recently that I realized that those melodies weren't original; I just forgot where they came from.

[ted]

How should I go about improving, or am I just hopeless?

No, no, no. Nobody is "hopeless". Dismiss that thought at once and don't let it return - ever. The main issue with personal improvisation is that the states of mind involved, the learning of it and the practice of it, run contrary to the ways we are conditioned to believe learning must take place. To improvise -  and it is a lifelong, organic process, ever changing and developing, not a three week, three month or three year "course" which finishes - it is best to work from a position of freedom toward one of order. This goes against all orthodox, serial learning and conditioning.

If you start by trying to impose order and structure on yourself, trying to compare yourself with other music or players, before acquiring flow, you will never get off the ground. If you can just enjoy your sounds, let things flow in easy rhythm, without worrying about "rights", "wrongs", "shoulds" and "ought tos", then after doing it every day it has to develop over time; it cannot do anything else if you are musically sensitive.

Absolute pitch, or indeed, most traditionally measurable musical abilities, are unnecessary beyond a certain point in order to create in music. It sounds really silly, but it's true; the faculty is quite different.

I think birba is absolutely right about fingering in improvisation, and it is a very important point, because consciously thinking about fingering will impede flow, if not cripple it altogether. In performing pieces we search for special, optimal fingerings to suit special situations. Improvisation does not allow time for this perfection because of its spontaneity. Instead, we look for large subsets of general fingering, ways of fingering chunked sections which we get into our head and then relegate to the subconscious. While not always optimal in the microscopic physical sense, these chunked fingerings can be applied to musical effect instantly in any position (key, grip) on the keyboard to sound a spontaneous idea.

Again, it's a way of thinking quite foreign to traditional learning.

 

[ongaku_oniko]

First of all, I would like to thank you all for the encouragement and advice.

Ted, I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, but are you saying to just keep randomly hit notes until it doesn't sound random anymore?

It's not that I don't believe you, it's more like I don't believe in my own abilities. I think I've been hitting random notes long enough, but I'm still at this stage. My friend, who only learned a few years of keyboard when she was really small can improv easily and beautifully. Same with people like bustthewave.

Is it realy something that will just "come naturally"?

Actually when I play I don't think about fingerings at all. The thing is, I am horribly bad at techniques, and I am really impatient. I never tried to play with a metronome, or learn fingerings. I would always just do with whatever.

So I don't have any preconceived idea of how something should be played at all.

[Derek]

I'm sure Ted will have more to say, but I think an important aspect of learning to improvise is remembering a bit of what you just played, and then possibly repeating it, maybe with something changed, maybe not. It's this cultivation of memory of what you played that I think can bring form to your playing. So maybe try playing something short, and random, and then repeating it. I think listening to your own recordings also helps develop this. Your brain will be like "hey I remember playing that" and might help you to bring out similar fragments again.

To qualify that, I'm not saying you must be a human tape recorder and remember absolutely every note you played. But maybe a rhythm---a melodic contour. Things like this.

[pianisten1989]

You can't fix everything right away. Try to make some improv-exercises - like improvising a base-line, chords, rhythm, melody...

[littletune]

Hmmm ok... well now I kinda decided to post my improvisation too    I played it on Sunday, but couldn't decide if I should post it or not  but now I will... I can't not to cause I think this thread is really cool! I mean maybe I'll try after some time again...

And I think this thread is really cool!  And it's so cool cause so many different people are posting and there are so many different improvisations... I wish I could comment on all of them!! But I would probably just be saying: this is sooo cool, this is sooo nice this is sooo great    cause I really don't know enough to say something smart.

I would post something here, but it would just sound like a ballet class.       I don't have the talent I've been hearing here.

Oh Birba! Post your improvisation!!! Pleeeease! What would be wrong with the ballet class?? That would be cool! 
Look (I mean listen) what I'm posting!!   

[pankrpec]

So the time has come again to post one of my not-so-enjoyable improvisations. This time over a theme. I can only echo what littletune has said, I didn't want to post anything, but after reading all these comments, I just had to try to improvise on the theme. I am actually unsure if the theme is somewhere in there, but you won't mind if it isn't, will you?

Also I must thank ongaku_oniko, Derek and birba for the very interesting conversation here, it has given me a few pointers for my own improvising endeavours.

Now after another listen, I really don't want to post it

Oh, and I almost forgot to say that all the improvs were great. (As with littletune, you can't really expect me to elaborate.)

[ted]

Ted, I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, but are you saying to just keep randomly hit notes until it doesn't sound random anymore?

No, of course not, that is not at all what happens; I must have expressed myself badly.

One way of starting is to play within bounds which are well defined but fairly easy and loose. For instance you might keep to single notes in both hands using the notes of two or three related scales, e.g. Cm,Fm and Bbm. Play anything in the way of little phrases and rhythms which you enjoy and which are meaningful to you in some way. The idea here is to get used to the feeling of real musical flow, which cannot happen if the guidelines are either too strict or do not exist. You need some sort of restriction, some pattern, in order to start but not so much that it makes you stumble through having to consciously think too much.

[ongaku_oniko]

I guess my problem isn't with rigid or structural playing. It's not that I don't have in mind what I want to play, I do.

I always have dozens of little broken melodies in my head. It's not like I don't have... I guess... any idea of what to play.

The problem is, I have trouble manifesting these sounds and melodies onto the piano. I can have a beautiful little tune in my head (or at least I think so), but it would take me ages to find the right notes on the piano, even if the little melody is a simple single-note melody with 5 or 6 notes.

And adding in the left hand is even harder.

So again, it's not that the ideas don't come to me, it's that I have no idea how to manifest these ideas and melodies into real sounds as opposed to sounds in my head.

another thing: when I try to manifest them on the piano, and fail a few times, the rest of the melodies disappear, since I try too hard and concentrate on just those few notes. I forget the rest of my story, so to speak.

So that's basically what I think is the core of my problems.

Thanks for reading through all my drudgery and giving out advice.

[quantum]

OO,

Perhaps you may wish to try a different approach to get your flow moving.  The process of manifesting melodies you have in your head will become easier once you overcome some of your hesitations toward improvising. 

Think of a block of clay or wood.  Instead of approaching the material as: "I want this to become a sculpture of a bird;"  start playing and shaping the material without any preconceived absolute notions of what that block of material should become.  The point is to get grab your tools and get your hands to work touching, shaping, molding, transforming, etc. Your actions of interacting with the material will create intentions of ideas, these may be in line with your initial thoughts, or the process may have steered you entirely in a different direction.  Don't resist ideas that differ from your initial thoughts, as they are part of the creative process.  Let the clay or wood guide you as much as you shape it.  Sometimes you come out with something totally unexpected but in hindsight much better than what you originally planned.  You might get that bird, or pot, or abstract geometrical object, or plant, or whatever.  The point is you are creating. 

It is more important at this stage to develop flow than precision of manifesting ideas in your head. 

[ted]

It is more important at this stage to develop flow than precision of manifesting ideas in your head. 

Couldn't have put it better.

[ongaku_oniko]

hmm... Well I guess that's what I've been doing...

That's how my improv on the last page resulted, no structure or rhythm or anything whatsoever. Just letting my fingers mold the way they move.

Honestly, I don't think it's a bad result myself. I've come to like my own improvs, including its lack of structure, key, sophistication and just general imperfections.

I want to be able to improvise something that everyone can appreciate though, namely my grandparents. Before... its... too.... late. My parents as well.

I guess it's not only about improvising for me. I don't care if it's an improv or a composition, but I want to turn my melodies into a real thing that other people can hear. But I really have no idea which keys would make those sounds at all.

Now, I can totally understand that I'm not yet ready to do that. And I really appreciate all of your advice. I think I'll try to make "flow" a bit more, and see where I get with this. Until then, I won't waste any more of your guys' precious time,

Ongaku Oniko


P.S:
For some reason, even though the melodies in my head is always really calm and relaxed, like harmony of the angels by burgmuller or the pieces tht Richard clayderman plays.

But when I improv, the sounds always sound almost baroquesque and somewhat egyptian, and always really sinister, messy and choppy, like the improv here and my tidal waves improv that I posted in a thread. I wonder why...

[quantum]

I don't think your wasting our time at all.  You are talking about improvisation. 

Many musicians pass off improvisation as a lesser art form, or something that is hit-and-miss and does not attract as much popular attention as a recital of standard repertoire. 

Perhaps this discussion is of interest to some of the readers who are in a similar situation. 

[ted]

That's right. For a very long time improvisation has been regarded in orthodox musical circles as a sort of poor man's composition. Even when I was young, most musicians, if they improvised at all, did so with the end object of imitating composition in one of its rigid established forms. While there is nothing wrong with doing this, improvisation is infinitely bigger than that activity. I suppose Keith Jarrett, whether or not you like his particular sounds, can be thanked for making the global statement through his  solo concerts, "It's all right to improvise after all. Improvisation is as valid an artistic activity as composition, performance or anything else."

Unfortunately I have reason to doubt that the truth is yet fully accepted in general, but that need not bother us.

[ted]

Is this sort of thing helpful to anybody ?

[ongaku_oniko]

wow... I was totally surprised by the british accent or is it australian? I can never tell.

anyway, thanks so much for that, ted! It really is helpful!

See, the first little bit you played is exactly what I mean by baroquesque and egyptian. What I play always ends up sort of like that, but only falls short because I stumble and play the "wrong" notes a lot. As in, fall off the key, or play like 2nds (like left hand C and right hand D, or left hand B and right hand C for example).

I think parts of this thread should be taken out and put in a "How to start improvising thread" together with your little voice recording to help people start up. Deserves a sticky, IMO

[Derek]

I like the idea of splitting out the "discusson on learning improvisation" into a sticky, great idea ongaku, and quantum.

Not that playing notes outside of a key is "wrong," but it sounds like what you are saying is that sometimes you are intending to use the notes of a particular scale but one hand just kind of falls off into the white keys (correct me if I got that wrong). That, combined with "stumble" sounds to me like perhaps you're biting off more than you can chew? In other words---perhaps given that you are already playing some difficult classical pieces you believe that your improvisation technique should already be at the same level as your ability to play classical pieces?  Maybe you need to take a step back and practice improvisation more slowly, remaining conscious of the physical positions you're using on the keyboard. In other words if you're stumbling or falling off, play more slowly until you know what notes you're using and are never falling off. Then over time you can gradually increase the speed you play in any given key/chord etc. that you choose. Eventually, "falling off" of a key could be something you choose to do for musical reasons.

*edit* so while I think that Ted's warning about thinking too consciously about what you are playing is an important one---he does not imply never engaging the conscious faculty at all. Especially when you're learning---you must become aware of shapes on the keyboard at the very least. Once you've consciously absorbed these shapes---the ways in which you play them and combine them through time is the part where you need to "let go."

I quote a chinese fortune cookie I got recently: "A little brook makes a great river."

I think I had the reverse problem for a while---my classical repertoire lagged far behind my improvisation in technique. They really are different skills!

*edit* I just noticed I re-iterated a couple of things already said earlier. Sorry about that. But hopefully I added something.