what to do "The method book is boring an I want to play XXX"

[slane]

Hi All,

  waffly post, so I've highlighted my questions in bold.

   I'm teaching my daughter to play piano. She's got a pretty good attitude to lessons .. so far.
We started off doing "Teaching Little fingers to play" but we ran in to two problems. First the pieces jump along, covering technical steps at a rate of knots and secondly, she decided fingering was the same as notes and so was reading the numbers, rather than the music. We got stuck at TLFTP at the Volga Boatman. Suddenly you're jumping from one hand to the other mid bar *and* the rythm is a lot more complicated than previous pieces. The previous owners of the book must have had trouble too because the beat counts are written over each note.

  So to address the first problem I got her modern method that progresses in teeny steps, introducing a note at a time an theory aspects, such as note length and clefs with little exercises and that's going well but ...

 "That books boring and I want to do the other one!".  I had planned to go back to the first piece in TLFTP at about page 30 of the method book, when we've covered all the notes and theory required for that piece.

So what would you do in this case? If she wants to play Volga Boatmen then I should encourage that, but I also want her to get the basics under her belt in a methodical manner too.

And one more question ... with the easy peasy pieces from the method book there are lots of repeated notes, which is easy to play, so although she understands about counting notes and the rhythm she tends to play them faster and faster. When I say "You need to play each one the same" she says "If you say that, I'll say 'I don't like piano anymore' " . Fair enough. But how do you correct problems without making things miserable. Do you just start the lesson with "Remember to make all the notes the right length?" and leave it at that? 

ta muchly

-s

[honeywill]

How old is your daughter?

Teaching your own child is always going to be a bit of a challenge. I started teaching my son, and got as far as the end of the first tutor book with him. Now he has a teacher and things are going much better because someone else is setting the agenda and issuing instructions! I sit with him and practise with him and teach him as before, but now I have the teacher's 'authority' backing up what I say to him.

It's always a good idea to sandwich any criticisms between praise of things that went well. Also, ask your daughter how she thinks she can improve the piece she has just played. She may be aware of the deficiencies but finding it hard to control her fingers. There are so many different books available that you are never going to run out of material at a similar level, so if one particular piece causes difficulties that she can't overcome in a few sessions, move on and try again with something else. Build on the things she can do well and keep chipping away at difficult areas with lots of new interesting pieces along the way. Accept that you can't fix everything that is wrong with every piece before moving on. You can always come back to the same piece in a month or so and see how much things have improved.

[ongaku_oniko]

hahaha.... I don't have a child, so I can't really answer your question, but thanks for giving me a good laugh


How old is your daughter? I swear these kids are getting smarter every generation... a little too smart for their own good.

If you say that I'll say I won't like the piano anymore

That totally made my day! and I was having a really bad one. Thanks

So manipulative

I would say "If you don't play it correctly, you won't get a change to like the piano anymore"

But I'm not sure how that would end up... probably not very good. I guess just keep at it, telling her a bit each time. But only a bit, don't load it up with how to play it properly, just talk about one little thing per lesson, and when she's changed that bad habit, talk about another one.

[Bob]

Maybe get another method book series and use different pieces from each.  Skip around.  She might not realize you still cover the whole book that way. 

Or use easier music (but maybe more of it) so she's having success more often.  It sounds like she's young and she may be watching the numbers more than the music.  Just get more inbetween music that doesn't need the fingers written in and don't let her write them in -- "There's no point writing the fingerings in -- The hand isn't going anywhere."  If that's the case.

[slane]

Thanks everyone. My daughter is 7.

I think I'll try some negotiation with her .. "Lets play what you want, but you need to do a bit of this too, cause its important". I have the first Hal Leonard Solo book too, but that doesn't start on the stave until its quite difficult too .. before that its floating dots and I don't want to confuse things with that concept now. If she can just stick to the method book a bit longer we can start interleaving TLFTP and the hal leonard pieces, which are quite nice.

Honeywill, when I try sandwiching praise and criticism she says "Don't do that. It was either good or bad, which one?". Hence I thought I'd start the lesson with "Focus on XXX" and leave it at that.

I'm reluctant to send her to a "real" teacher because she hasn't got the stamina for a 30minute lesson yet, although, as you say, a "real" teacher would have more authority. Hopefully we can at least get to the end of the first book.

ongaku_oniko, I'm glad I made your day.

thanks again
Samantha

[ongaku_oniko]

well, you can say it's good, but it could be even better

or it's not always either good or bad, sometimes there are good parts and bad parts

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

I'm not a piano teacher, but I started piano around that age (plus or minus a few years)... and I also volunteer with kids that age... so I'm going to try and think from a 7 year old piano student's perspective.

Maybe you can tell her the pieces you want her to learn will make her become really really good at the pieces she wants to learn? That motivated me to play scales when I was younger...  

Or maybe you could find a few pieces that teach the same concept, and let her pick one. That way she doesn't feel forced to do anything, and she feels like she has a choice.

About counting, maybe you could turn it into a game? Ad if she plays with a steady beat she gets a reward? Or something like that. I don't know, these are just ideas, like I said, I'm a student myself, not a teacher.

Also, I'm sure there are teachers that teacher shorter lessons. Have you asked around? My teacher, for example, offers 2 15 minute lessons a week for her younger students. The student before me is a 3 or 4 year old who just loooves piano!!
 

[faulty_damper]

This advice is as a former piano teacher and someone who studies learning psychology.

"That books boring and I want to do the other one!"

This statement doesn't necessarily mean she thinks the book is boring.  What she more likely means is that TLFTP has changed the rules on her and she doesn't like the change.  The rule that was changed was the fingering rule which she was very accustomed to.  She can no longer correlate the numbers with which note to play so she must learn something new, which requies effort.

This is the downside to teaching fingering using numbers because it requires the student to learn one method and then very shortly learn NOT to use it because it will no longer work.

What you must do now is teach the method advanced pianists use which is to look at note patterns and the correlated finger patterns to play those patterns.  This step can be acquired easily by: 1) writing out fingerings over note patterns and 2) asking them to apply the same fingerings over repeated note patterns but without writing in the notes.  This second step is very important because it weans the mind off of seeing fingerings and instead focus on note patterns.

But how do you correct problems without making things miserable.

...rhythm she tends to play them faster and faster.

You are making an assumption that your daughter is aware of all the things you are aware of.

You are able to hear the off rhythm but she most likely doesn't since she is focusing on playing instead of hearing.  These are two different skills that are incredibly difficult to incorporate simultaneously.  Only when the two separate skills are at a level of competence can the mind put them together.

At this point, she isn't making music.  When she has all the parts practiced until she does not have to put too much effort into it then she can make music if she chooses to.

She plays the repeated notes faster because there is no musical interest and she just wants to get through it quickly.  There is little you can do about it and it isn't something you should fuss over.  When she is ready to make music, she'll play in time.

[ongaku_oniko]

wow, that is great advice! Why didn't I think of that...

My question is, why do people even teach fingerings? I think that finges should not be taught until they are at least somewhat advanced. I mean fingerings is mostly used to play comfortably and fast, right? So as long as they're playing comfortably it shouldn't really matter which finger they use. At least not until they become advanced, and want to achieve certain effects with different fingerings.

[fleetfingers]

She plays the repeated notes faster because there is no musical interest and she just wants to get through it quickly.  There is little you can do about it and it isn't something you should fuss over.  When she is ready to make music, she'll play in time.

What about "bad habits"? The advice given so often to teachers is to not allow any bad habits to form. Since timing is so important in music, shouldn't it be a priority to discipline a student in that area? I don't mean that the OP should correct his/her daughter every single time she speeds up when playing pieces. But when it's a formal "lesson/teaching time", shouldn't correct rhythm and tempo be enforced? As far as musical interest goes...if she is not interested, then perhaps it is too boring.  

I'm not sure what to say about the parent/child teaching situation. I've typed up a paragraph and deleted it several times just now. It's not easy to teach your own kids. You are playing two roles - teacher and parent. She is playing two roles - student and daughter. It becomes an interesting dynamic that has to be dealt with differently than a normal teaching situation. The personality and temperament of the child play a factor in how to approach teaching, as does the relationship between parent and child. I've found in teaching my own kids that sometimes I have to put my foot down and enforce something. But most of the time, they are self-paced and learn on their own, while I come in and give advice and tips when I feel it will be well-received (in other words, they are in a good mood and are feeling good about their piano playing). Anyway, I'm still figuring it all out. Good luck with your situation!

[ongaku_oniko]

I can definitely see why you would say that you are playing two roles, parent and teacher, but perhaps this is just because of my young age and naivety, but I'm not sure why that has to be.

I mean parents teach their children too, right? It's not only the teachers that do the teaching, but parents often teach a lot more than teacher. They teach children how to be a good human being.

If a child develops a bad habit of, say stealing, would you just allow it to continue? Or even continue some of the time?

Now, this case is different since you don't want your child to lose interest, but I don't see how you have to play 'two roles'. Isn't teaching as a parent enough?

[fleetfingers]

Good questions, to which the answers are complex and much more in-depth than I would like to go in this thread.

For now, let's just discuss the specific case from the OP of her daughter resisting correction with a threat: "If you say that, I'll say 'I won't like the piano anymore'"

In this situation, the mom starts off playing the role of TEACHER. The daughter doesn't like the corrections and doesn't want to do the work, so she responds as a DAUGHTER with the threat to quit piano. So, now the mom has to decide how to address the manipulation: whether to (1) use reverse phsycology, (2) say 'OK, fine, just keep going then', (3) get tougher and insist on obedience, or (4) stop the lesson altogether and have a serious discussion about piano lessons.

As both a teacher and a parent, I would imagine having two completely different reactions to such a statement depending on who was saying it to me (either a student or my own child) and my strategy in dealing with it would be completely different in either situation. So, what if I'm both? What do i do? I'm not saying it's impossible to teach your own kids. Like you said, you are always teaching your kids all the time anyway. I'm just saying that it is more complicated than it is with any other student.

[fleetfingers]

.

[slane]

Thanks again everyone.

I think you are onto something faulty_damper. Its hard for an adult to hear themselves play and the pieces she's been playing are pretty dull. In fact she explained yesterday that pieces with two notes are dull! Fair enough. So today we'll zip through the exercises for the next two notes (B and C) and then she'll be able to play some proper tunes. Its unfortunate we've had to go through all this boring business to undo reading the fingering instead of the notes but now she understands that (and I've whited out the fingerings in the books) I think we can safely jump ahead.

Ongaku_oniko, parents teach their children more than good behaviour (but we hope they teach them at least that). I taught my daughter to read. The teachers give the kids some theory and a little practice, but the main teaching happens at home with the parents listening and correcting and in our case my daughter had to be taught phonically (we're still stuck in whole language lala land in this country) and so I had to teach her myself. And I learnt a lot from that experience which pertains to teaching piano but as faulty_damper points out, you really have to be aware of what you are unconsciously aware of and make it known to the student. Its much harder than one would think, and that would be the value of a "real" teacher, who has experience in how kids learn and  what they don't know.
One good thing that came out of the reading experience is my daughter is very proud of her reading ability now (actually 2 good things) and she knows it has a lot to do with my intervention when she started school, so she has a bit of confidence in me as a teacher, even though I've explained to her that pretty soon there will come a point where I wont be able to teach her piano any more, because she will be too clever and her eyes popped out of her head at that thought!

[faulty_damper]

What about "bad habits"? The advice given so often to teachers is to not allow any bad habits to form. Since timing is so important in music, shouldn't it be a priority to discipline a student in that area?

Bad habits will never form in regards to musical aspects.  Rhythm and tempo are musical aspects so there is little need to correct the speeding up.  She's only speeding up to get through the easy parts.

Technical aspects, however, are subject to bad habits since they are mechanical in nature.  The problem with addressing technical issues during the exploration period is that students are still exploring the best way to play.  It makes little sense to tell them the "correct" way to play since they will inevitably figure out how their body works.

A child's body is very different from an adult's body and the most common mistake teachers make is to assume that children should play the way adults do - they don't for a variety of physical aspects including size, length, and weight of their playing apparatus.  This is why it is so difficult to teach children how to "properly/correctly" hold they hands, fingers, etc. because their bodies are incapable of playing that way.  If it really was "proper" and "correct" then they will adopt the movements immediately because it is more comfortable and effective.

[faulty_damper]

I think you are onto something faulty_damper. Its hard for an adult to hear themselves play and the pieces she's been playing are pretty dull. In fact she explained yesterday that pieces with two notes are dull!

From what I've been able to gather, your daughter hasn't been playing any melodies that she knows and has only been playing from the books?  If this is true, the next step is to teach her how to play a melody that she knows on the piano by rote; that is, no reading.  A melody like Mary Had A Little Lamb or something similarly familiar would do wonders for her musical expression and she won't speed up the repeated notes.

[faulty_damper]

In regards to teaching rhythm, the main reason why students have problems with rhythm is because they were taught it by reading it first.  Instead, teach a new rhythm by having them clap it, say it, play on a neutral note with each had, then both hands together, then alternating hands.  This must be learned before showing them what the rhythm looks like on paper.  When they see how it looks like on paper, they will associate the rhythm that they made with the note groups.  This way, they are not reading individual notes within the note group, hence the issues students have with rhythm.

I hope this explanation was clear.  If not, please ask for clarification.

[raisinbrahms]

In regards to teaching rhythm, the main reason why students have problems with rhythm is because they were taught it by reading it first.  Instead, teach a new rhythm by having them clap it, say it, play on a neutral note with each had, then both hands together, then alternating hands.  This must be learned before showing them what the rhythm looks like on paper.  When they see how it looks like on paper, they will associate the rhythm that they made with the note groups.  This way, they are not reading individual notes within the note group, hence the issues students have with rhythm.

I hope this explanation was clear.  If not, please ask for clarification.

This is exactly what I do with my students.  I find if they learn the rhythm first, they aren't trying to learn two or three things at the same time (rhythm, notes, fingering) and thus getting frustrated. 

As far as the "boredom" thing...I try as hard as I can to engage my students' imaginations.  I teach mostly out of the Faber "Piano Adventures" series, which comes with teacher duets that makes them feel like they are actually playing something even if they're only playing C D E on quarter notes.  I ask them to tell me if they think the song sounds like a clown, a dinosaur, etc. and why. 9 times out of 10, it gets their attention and perks them up.

Then again, I've tried teaching my own son (now 13), and let's just say that's a whole heck of a lot harder!   

[aintgotnorhythm]

I agree with the last post, duets are a good idea. I have used John Thompson's piano course books with my children - these have teacher piano accompaniments for most of the pieces.

I would also suggest finding out what local opportunities there are for children of a similar age to play/learn music together in a group (e.g. my daughter joined a primary school age beginner violin group that meets once a week and it has really helped reinforce what she was learning in piano lessons).

[slane]

Thanks everyone. Lots of good suggestions there. I'll look into teaching her something from rote. Even when she plays the JT pieces, which are more musical than the exercises in the method book so far, she plays them with much better rhythm. One of the nice things about the method book is it has clapping exercises when it introduces a new note length.
Should I be getting her to clap the rhythm of her pieces before she plays them too?

As I mentioned before, we're skipping a few of the pieces in the method so we can get up to the more musical pieces which will engage her interest more and hopefully that will remove a lot of the rhythm problems.

The book introduces staccato and emphasis (> symbol) very early on. I'm not sure that's a wonderful idea. Staccato is a surprisingly hard movement to master. Anyway, she was playing a piece about a ghost with both staccato and > and the tempo said "slowly and spookily" she gave it some thought and decided spooky meant turn a crotchet into a quaver so it became 7/8 time and the result was completely wrong rythmically, quite scarey when she suddenly hit the > note and very funny. So I let it be, because I felt she'd expressed something musical and she made a big advance in her note reading at the same time.

So that leads me to my next question ... how well should she be playing a piece before I introduce a new one? I'd been introducing a new piece at the start of a lesson and then cycling back over the old ones, and even that she found boring. Now I'm thinking, the way the book is structured, the problems she has with the early pieces will be covered again and again so there's no harm in plowing on before she's "mastered" earlier pieces??

Interesting comments, faulty_damper, about correcting hand position and exploratory phase. I don't think it will hurt to note that its easier to play in the conventional position every now and then and leave it at that.

[raisinbrahms]

Should I be getting her to clap the rhythm of her pieces before she plays them too?

I do this quite often, especially if a new rhythm is being introduced.  Some of my students are reluctant to do it at first, but it seems to really help them in the long run if they get used to clapping and counting early on.  It also seems to help my kids who have difficulty with keeping a steady pulse.

So that leads me to my next question ... how well should she be playing a piece before I introduce a new one? I'd been introducing a new piece at the start of a lesson and then cycling back over the old ones, and even that she found boring. Now I'm thinking, the way the book is structured, the problems she has with the early pieces will be covered again and again so there's no harm in plowing on before she's "mastered" earlier pieces??

I ask myself this one often too...I guess it kind of depends on the student.  As a general rule, if I find that they've grasped the concept of the piece - e.g. counting quarter and half notes, legato vs. staccato, etc. and can do it with a reasonable amount of accuracy and are the type of student that is easily bored, I will move them along - or introduce a new piece that covers the same types of concepts. 

[fleetfingers]

Should I be getting her to clap the rhythm of her pieces before she plays them too?

I think yes. I do that with my students and it helps a lot. When they are new to note values, I clap and count with them until they get the hang of it. And once it becomes fairly easy for them, I don't have them do it every time. I have a little jingle bell toy that they hold and hit against their other hand instead of clapping, and they like it.

As someone who played "musically" as a child and was never reigned in and disciplined to play rhythmically correct, I feel strongly that the importance of timing in music needs to be instilled early on. Just my two cents worth.

[faulty_damper]

I agree that they should clap the rhythm before playing the piece, however, the issue is how much time before they come across the rhythm.  In this case, according to the theory of priming, they should be able to perform the rhythm well before they actually see it on the page.  This could be anywhere from the day before or the week before (it doesn't matter) as long as they are fluent in the rhythm's performance.  The reason this is necessary is so that they have no singular piece for the rhythm to be tied to which makes application much easier.

Introducing the rhythm as part of the piece (the same lesson) is fine but would require extrapolation, removing the rhythm from the piece, to apply to other pieces.  The ability to extrapolate requires you to teach extrapolation which means many more steps. The way to sidestep teaching extrapolation would be to have them learn a different piece with the same rhythm during the same lesson.  This way, they see that the rhythm isn't confined to just that one piece. 

To provide an analogy for this principle:
Students taught math without context (just the numbers and functions) are much better able to apply what they'e learned to problems they find in real life scenarios.  Contrary, students taught math using real life examples have difficulty applying what they learned to any other contexts.  (E.g. Students taught fractions using pizza slices can only apply fractions to pizza slices.)

.. how well should she be playing a piece before I introduce a new one?

If she likes the music of the piece, she'll want to keep playing it which means you can use the opportunity to refine her playing skills, listening skills, or her musical skills.

If she is not interested, then move on and find another piece where you can use it to refine the necessary skills to become a better musician.

[slane]

I just wanted to let everyone know that everything is choofing along nicely now.
Now that she's back to where she started with the John Thompson book, but can now read the music, she can play much more musically, as faultydamper suggested she would when she got to more musical pieces. She sometimes sings them before she starts. Her rythm is improving. We spent quite a lot of time understanding rests and now she is playing "beethoven's 5th". Haha!
I put the real thing on the hifi last night and she was dancing around and then this morning she was practicing of her own volition. So that's great!
And as faultydamper predicted, her hands are adapting the conventional curved posture as she finds she can't play three notes in a row with her fingers straight out.

Well thanks again for all your help.

[faulty_damper]

You're welcome! Let us know how she is doing in the future and if you need any more advice just let us know.

[dbmusic]

Wow, so many issues addressed here. Teaching your own child can be fraught with challenges because we tend to expect more from them! Having said that, it's still very rewarding to make music together.

With regard to note values/steady beat......when I introduce new pieces to beginners ... and often to more advanced students... we tap out the rhythm on our legs following the score, using RH on right leg [for treble notes/chords] and LH hand on left leg [for bass notes/chords]  playing the piece as a percussion exercise.  You can incorporate the changes in note length by not lifting your hand until the note duration is complete, tap with a staccato touch, tap an accent, tap loudly or softly etc. It's fun and really helps establish both rhythm and beat as well as coordination between the hands. It also sounds great and 'mistakes' are much less confronting! I've never had a child frown because they 'got tangled up'. The response is always to laugh. We tape ourselves and play it back clapping only the beat against the rhythms we've generated.  This little exercise frees up the demands on the child as it takes away a couple of layers of difficulty. They don't have to read the note's pitch or the finger required to play it so can focus on the notation/note values and of course those pesky rests which tend to get ignored. We sometimes play our 'percussion band' along  with a recording of the piece. I find that when they attempt to read the actual music the timing is mostly fine. Repeated notes are held for the required duration and everything makes musical sense. We've also had fun along the way and generated fewer technical issues which might otherwise have arisen. Yes, I agree, duet playing is also a fine way to establish a steady pulse....."I need you to let that note sing for 2 whole beats because I have so many notes to play I just can't fit them in!!" always gets a positive response.
Love to know how your daughter progresses and what works and doesn't work for you both in your musical jounrney