Input and disagreements during piano lessons

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

 Some friends and I were talking about piano lessons today and a few interesting things came up that just make me wonder...

 Do you every have disagreements with your piano teacher? On interpretation? Choosing pieces? Fingering? Pedaling? etc etc? Or do you do everything your teacher tells you?

How much input does your teacher ask for regarding these things? How much input do you think there should be?


Just curious. Because some of my friends tell me they "fight" with their teachers all the time because their teachers insist on certain pieces and interpretations...
 
As for me, my teacher asks me a lot for my input anyway... Although being the somewhat quiet student that I am, I actually used to hate that, because I was never sure if the dynamics or pedaling or whatever I wrote down was right. And sometimes she'd ask me what a certain piece made me think of, and my stories were always completely bizarre! (Does the Bach Fugue in Eb major, BWV 876, remind ANYONE else of CAKE?!)

So is it normal to disagree with your teacher? Or is it normal to never disagree with them?
When you have a disagreement, how do you address it?

So anyway, please answer my question(s) or just add whatever random thoughts you have...

Thanks,
a very curious thinkgreenlovepiano

PS: If teachers could add their thoughts on this, that'd be appreciated too, even though I was addressing this to students since I placed it in the student's corner.

PPS: I hope my  post makes sense! I'm not an expert at starting threads, yet...


EDIT: By fight, I don't mean argue per se, just a  friendly disagreement . (:

[ongaku_oniko]

I've had 3 different teachers (well, 5, but the other two were when I was not really seriously learning the piano, as in 30 minute lesons per week with no practise)


For all of them, they let me choose whichever pieces I want (within the Celebration Series, whichever level I was playing at)

I guess I never really got as far as having an argument on interpretation, but I would assume that in such a case, it shouldn't really be an argument, but rather a discussion. You say why you think yours is good, and the teacher says why they think you should change some things. And most likely, something in the middle will be the best.

Fingering and pedalling I am in even less a position to argue with the teacher. If you're even telling your teachers what fingerings and pedalling you should use, then why do you even have a teacher? If you don't even trust your teacher for basic technical things, better change a teacher or not have a teacher at all.

So I don't think there should be ANY arguments with the teacher at all, although some form of discussion is healthy.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

I guess fight wasn't the best word. I've never actually argued with my teacher, I'm a very cooperative student.  

I meant a disagreement. Is it normal to disagree? Or is it normal to never have any disagreements at all? I'm just curious...

Maybe because with my first teacher, I was young, shy, and just never questioned anything. I just went along with whatever pieces she picked for me, and we never discussed stuff like dynamics or pedal. At all   So I just did what was written in the book, but as you know, the celebration series books almost never put any pedal or dynamic markings... and thus for the first 4 years of my piano studies, choosing dynamics and pedal was a mystery to me. I just did it by what I felt was right, but I was always unsure.

 So when I switched teachers, it was really intimidating when my teacher asked me to think about what pedal and dynamics to use, and to discuss my choices with her!
 

I agree there's no point of having a teacher if you can't trust them or think you know everything... that's why I pester my teacher with questions!!!

As for fingering though, sometimes I have to disagree, because well... my teacher's hands and my hands are not the same, and I have difficulty reaching notes etc. So then we discuss it.
 But most times, my teacher's fingerings are ingenious!

Like I said, most of my friends seem way more vocal than me on their opinions during piano lessons. So I was wondering how it was with everyone else...

Basically.... Where do you draw the line between not trusting your teacher and simply disagreeing?
Is it bad to disagree with your teacher on interpretation? Is it bad to never disagree?

I'm asking a lot of questions on this thread, but they basically have the same meaning, I'm just trying to get my message across (:

[nataliethepianist]

I have had seven piano teachers (!) over the course of about 7 years (even more !). My current teacher and my soon to be former (I hope) and I got into this huge disagreement. He thought that after 7 months of piano lessons that I couldn't learn Fantasie Impromptu. Than some other things went down and now I am almost done with the hard part!

Teachers always say they are right, but that doesnt mean they are never wrong. Some teachers never look past the details of time to focuss on the actual ability of the student. I think it is normal to have a few disagreements here and there to give the student some control of their lessons!

I never ask questions, but I wish I asked more! I am actually afraid to ask questions because I know it will blow up in my face and I will be wrong (again). There is never such a thing as asking too many questions, unless you're in geometry class and this kid who should have taken algebra 3-4 again wont stop talking!

Now I am going to think of cake when I play a Prelude and Fugue! Thanks!

Good luck with your studies.

-Natalie

[m1469]

I think what matters most is whatever grounds a discussion or "disagreement" would be taking place upon.  There are fundamental things, like who we are as people, and then there are strictly musical things.  I couldn't say whether it's right or wrong in general because people argue and disagree or don't argue and don't disagree for all sorts of reasons, many of which have almost nothing directly to do with the actual lesson, the teacher, or the music (even if it seems like it's about those things).  I think that at the right times and in the right ways, it's important for growth and development to have intelligent discussions, based on knowledge and experience.  And, I think it's vital to have enough openness to clear up possible misunderstandings if they are happening.

[omar_roy]

It's perfectly normal to have disagreements every now and then.  Some of the most productive and enlightening lessons I've ever had were chock full of arguing!  However, that's not to say you should disagree with your teacher all the time just for the sake of it.  Some teachers are very good at helping you reach your own interpretation precisely because they're so sensitive to your musical personality, and a disagreement may never pop up in some instances.

A lot of the time our disagreements come down to me not being convincing.  I'll have an idea, but be unsure of it, and end up half-assing it when I play it for her in our lesson and it boils down to her saying "If you're gonna do it, convince me."

[ongaku_oniko]

Okay, I think I know what it is I'm trying to say.

You should know "why".

It's not good to just always listen to the teacher like a robot if you don't know why you're doing something a certain way. You should always discuss with your teacher until you understand why s/he wants you to play a certain way.

IF after you've understood why you still think your way is better, try to convince your teacher of "why". If you can't convince your teacher, well, s/he certainly did at least convince you why his/her way works.

So I think it's healthy to have discussions once in a while, but not arguments. Like it's good to discuss, but not go like "No, I want to play it like this".

And if you find yourself asking "why" for every little thing, that means that either your teacher has no musical knowledge and their teachings are inconsistent, or that they are simply bad teachers.

[m1469]

You should know "why".

There are certain things which the reason for doing (or not doing) can only be truly known through the actual ability to really do them yourself, and discussion alone definitely won't get you there.  Discussion should take place based on knowledge and experience for both parties.  Even if it is explained to you why you are doing something, through the ability to actually do it you will arrive at a different dimension of understanding it than from trying to understand why without the ability to do it. 

In my experience, I even differently perceive others playing based on what I myself have the ability to do.  This is similar to studying the same piece as somebody else and hearing it with different ears than a piece you've never heard before.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

Thanks for all your replies! It's just interesting to hear about what lessons are like for other people... Like I said, my friends were surprised I didn't really argue with my teacher... and it got me wondering. Maybe it's because my teacher is the one encouraging me to voice my opinions and ideas... So I never really had to start a discussion on disagreeing... hmm...


@ omar_roy I've done that before too, but it was more subconscious. Sometimes I add my own ideas to the piece without realizing it at first. For example, once I started to make a decrescendo, realized my teacher wrote crescendo, tried switching to crescendo... and my teacher was like "What was that?! You can play crescendo, or decrescendo, but you can't do both!"

@nataliethepianist Awesome, now I won't be the only one who thinks of cake! It kind of makes sense to me to think of cake because Eb major reminds me of sweet things, and fugues have many voices, like the layers of a cake

@ongaku, I understand what you're saying. So how would you personally, start such a discussion on your disagreement, without saying "No, I want to play it like this?"

@mayla, yes, I think communication is very important too. I know with my very first teacher, I wasn't a very good communicator, because I was a little kid and really shy.


Oh another thing I've always wondered is if teachers teach different students different interpretations of the same piece...

[jollisg]

Me and my teacher makes agreements on almost everything.

He picks some pieces he think I would like (or would be good for me, if it's technical practice). Then I can chose from one of them, but i can suggest pieces (and my teacher decides if it's on my level).
If I found a fingering uncomfortable we make another fingering, or if I found a fingering waaay much better than the one on the paper. The same in the pedaling section. My teacher think it's important that it is "my piece" so i don't copy someone else. I don't change the piece, but I think it's so important to not sound mechanical and I want people to hear that it's ME who is playing the piece (and so my teacher thinks too).

For me it's kind of a progress in how much he directs over the pieces. When i start to play I do exactly as he say, in the dynamics. He knows the pieces better than I do at that moment.
When I know the piece well, I start making it to my own, express my own feelings and so on.

[nanabush]

I find my teacher gets [too] caught up on very minute details in a piece that it becomes overwhelming satisfying him.  It is really good, and he is very thorough, but there are certain things that I simply cannot do... I don't have 5 brains to multitask the ways he wants!

In my Prelude from the G minor English Suite, he wants my right hand to accentuate the hemiolas (at the major cadential points), keep the left hand in the triple meter (so without hemiolas), and bring out the intervals of the thirds and sixths more... while I'm doing that I have to make sure not too accent too much... but honestly, if I'm focusing so hard on bringing out a hemiola while the other hand is 'not supposed to', I end up accenting it either way!!  That two bar section is too damn short to actually bring out that many details.  I end up overthinking that I just completely bomb the trill at the end.

To put this in perspective... if he finds that I'm making a lot of dumb mistakes, he really goes nuts with small details.  It's almost as if he tries to 'put me in my place' sometimes.  We'll end up creating voices within voices, and this 3 voice sections ends up magically having 5 voices... "but don't accent the upper notes!"... AHHGHHH it is impossible to think of that much stuff!!!  When I ask my teacher to clarify because I am beyond confused, he will just kind of stare for 20 seconds, and then I awkwardly re-ask my question! lol

He is a brilliant teacher, but it is extremely hard to follow what he considers 'important details'.  It ends up turning a piece into this pinata that I end up picking apart and destroying 

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

@jollisg, I think that's how my lessons go too. It works well for me, most of the time

I find my teacher gets [too] caught up on very minute details in a piece that it becomes overwhelming satisfying him.  It is really good, and he is very thorough, but there are certain things that I simply cannot do... I don't have 5 brains to multitask the ways he wants!

In my Prelude from the G minor English Suite, he wants my right hand to accentuate the hemiolas (at the major cadential points), keep the left hand in the triple meter (so without hemiolas), and bring out the intervals of the thirds and sixths more... while I'm doing that I have to make sure not too accent too much... but honestly, if I'm focusing so hard on bringing out a hemiola while the other hand is 'not supposed to', I end up accenting it either way!!  That two bar section is too damn short to actually bring out that many details.  I end up overthinking that I just completely bomb the trill at the end.

To put this in perspective... if he finds that I'm making a lot of dumb mistakes, he really goes nuts with small details.  It's almost as if he tries to 'put me in my place' sometimes.  We'll end up creating voices within voices, and this 3 voice sections ends up magically having 5 voices... "but don't accent the upper notes!"... AHHGHHH it is impossible to think of that much stuff!!!  When I ask my teacher to clarify because I am beyond confused, he will just kind of stare for 20 seconds, and then I awkwardly re-ask my question! lol

He is a brilliant teacher, but it is extremely hard to follow what he considers 'important details'.  It ends up turning a piece into this pinata that I end up picking apart and destroying 

Oh my teacher does this too! I end up being so caught up on the little details, I end up messing up on the notes themselves! But details do make a piece more interesting to learn...
And sometimes she comes up with new details to focus on, or just changes her mind, and I feel like I have relearn the piece all over. Oh well, multitasking is a good skill for me to learn And sometimes my silly mistakes are what makes my lesson so entertaining.