Fundamental difference between an "easy" piece vs. a "difficult" piece?

[m1469]

Well, I think my whole mind is going in a kind of new direction, which is nice and needed!  This "Baby Pieces" project is opening up WAY more in me than I could have initially imagined, for some reason.  I guess it's maybe really a good step for me right now! 

The most concise way of putting my current thoughts is that of aiming to discern the difference between what truly makes a piece of music easy, vs. difficult.  And, I thought that the classic answer (if I posed a question) would be "Practice".  Well, no, that's not it, exactly, I have decided.  On the surface, sure, maybe that could be an easy form of an answer.  But it's much more specific than that.  Of course, it's RELATED to practice, but it's definitely more along the lines of how we are using the time spent towards learning our pieces.  Which is, of course, linked to the idea of the way(s) in which we practice, and not just the fact that we sit at the piano and make the keys go.

So, I guess I am aiming then to see what it is, specifically that we are developing in practice?  I think it's "clear ideas" ... I mean, I think that the main aim of time spent in practice is/should be to always be gaining a more precise mental impression of the pieces we are working on.  That mental impression includes everything under the sun that we might be aiming to express within the music.  What makes a piece "easy" is more specifically, I think, very clear mental images.  The more clear the image is, the "easier" the piece no matter how "difficult" the outer surface of the piece may seem.  So, in a way, there are not actually easy and difficult pieces, there are only differences between crystal clear ideas and somehow unclear and muddy ones, I think.  At least that seems right based on what I understand so far.

Even in my "Baby Pieces" there is probably more I could theoretically do with them in my performances of them.  But, the point is, I am actually capable because the concepts are not difficult for me to grapple with.  So, I am trying to maybe pinpoint what it is that clouds my thinking when I am presented with a piece that is supposed to be difficult.  Even though flat-out skill is involved both in demonstrating music as well as in developing concepts about music, and skill is also very mental, there is also the issue of mental doubts (and probably fears) that get in the way, too.  When I work on music that is considered to be advanced, I feel a responsibility to know more than I think I already do.  I mean, I start getting caught up in feeling all sorts of things (much of which has been rooted in feeling like I don't have the necessary formal steps in my childhood).  And, that getting caught up in that is part of the cloudy affect that is not helpful!

What I think I am realizing, though, is that we are more or less getting 'fit' for music, but what really defines our placement in the repertoire, where we "belong" and what pieces are right for us and such, is not actually fundamentally about our formal footsteps in getting there.  It is more about what is inside of us to be expressed, to be developed, the level of love and interest we may have or that is waiting to be discovered, and then having the skill to express what needs to be expressed.  An easy piece is one in which that is all readily clear, and sure, hopefully practice is making those aspects more clear to us.

Well, this is me swimming through some new channels in thinking, aiming to get things more cleared up!  I guess I'm still chewing on these things, so if a reader has any particular thought on some of this, I welcome it with open arms!

[m1469]

What I am really wondering, I think, is based on a suspicion that I am gaining that there is something about playing that "should" just be easy.  I mean, in a way, you could say it's all made of the same stuff, whatever you are playing.  And, I know it seems like a juggling act, but, I think that "easy" (yet still great!) is an attitude.  It is a kind of perception.  And, it's like I feel like I should be able to just carry something over directly from what are considered easy pieces to what are considered difficult.  How do I just carry that over?  It seems like I should be able to!

There's more that's just hiding behind a better understanding ... arghy.  It's like I just can't put my finger on it yet.

[thalbergmad]

It's like I just can't put my finger on it yet.

You have answered your own question.

If you can put your finger on it, it is easy. If you can't, it is difficult.

Thal

[stevebob]

The question of fundamental difference between “easy” and “difficult” is of interest to me as well.  A related issue that I’ve thought about a lot—or perhaps it is the same issue, after all—is the distinction between (1) what we can sightread with ease and (2) what we can learn to play with ease only after many hours of practice over days and weeks.

I don’t discount that other things may be going on, but it seems that the most basic constraints are complexity and speed.  The more complex the music (i.e., the patterns of notes, rhythm and articulation plus the motions required to execute those patterns), the more “difficult” it will be found to be; the faster the music must be processed, the greater the difficulty that will be experienced.

m1469, your original post suggests that you’re looking for a more ruminative or even esoteric explanation.  My description is awfully prosaic, but I’d like to learn more, too.  I reckon that the connections between cognition and performance derive from the science of stimulus and response, it surely has been subjected to much scholarly research, even as applied to something so specialized as learning and performing music.  Does anyone have any books to recommend that are accessible to a non-academic amateur?

[emill]

Hi m1469,

Discussions whether a piano piece is easy or difficult is a favorite among piano players as I always hear this among my son's friends.  I also teach (not the piano) and I feel that this issue falls in the realm of "RELATIVITY"; a major component being the innate skills and musicality of the student as always it is the case in any endeavor. So that a group of engineering students may find a math concept easy to deal with while those in a humanities class will be at a loss.  Of course there is agreement in a general way that pieces are more difficult than others ... and that beginners preferably should tackle these and intermediates that and advanced students can start with those.

I however find it more disadvantageous dealing too much with pros and cons about the whole range of issues of a particular problem or piece.  I see this tendency on your part to dissect too much an issue, sometimes as if it were a moral or philosophical issue requiring a definitive resolution. In my opinion it will tend to bog you down.  I am not saying that one should not take stock of the major obstacles, but should not deal too much with the nitty-gritty as that will often create anxieties in one's brain and will affect one's drive.  It is just like taking driving lessons for the 1st time .... if one were to deal with all the issues, many will give up before starting as the accident side of driving is so fearsome.  There is this motto which says ... "just do it" .... which probably should be the case in piano playing as long as it will not injure the student.  It lends to encouragement and boosts self esteem if one does well .... it makes th student realize things (that in fact the piece is too difficult) ....  and for some the joy and fun of trying to play the piece.  If too much analysis and dissection come before the 1st note is played ... at the very least a lot of the joy will be removed and the piece may become a chore to be overcome.  Just me .

 

[m1469]

You have answered your own question.

If you can put your finger on it, it is easy. If you can't, it is difficult.

Thal

I think I get it, but I can't quite put my finger on it .

The question of fundamental difference between “easy” and “difficult” is of interest to me as well.  A related issue that I’ve thought about a lot—or perhaps it is the same issue, after all—is the distinction between (1) what we can sightread with ease and (2) what we can learn to play with ease only after many hours of practice over days and weeks.

I don’t discount that other things may be going on, but it seems that the most basic constraints are complexity and speed.  The more complex the music (i.e., the patterns of notes, rhythm and articulation plus the motions required to execute those patterns), the more “difficult” it will be found to be; the faster the music must be processed, the greater the difficulty that will be experienced.

m1469, your original post suggests that you’re looking for a more ruminative or even esoteric explanation.  My description is awfully prosaic, but I’d like to learn more, too.  I reckon that the connections between cognition and performance derive from the science of stimulus and response, it surely has been subjected to much scholarly research, even as applied to something so specialized as learning and performing music.  Does anyone have any books to recommend that are accessible to a non-academic amateur?

I have just started reading a book that might have something in there as it relates, but I am not going in order of the chapters as they are layed out, and have skipped straight to something that has more to do with performance.  I'll let you know if I find something, though!

I can say that I've thought a bit about the sightreading thing, though, too.  And, I think what it is with me sometimes, is that I will just be going along, normally and all, and then it's like something ... an idea or some kind of new question will just be staring me in the face and then I can't ignore it.  What I thought about with regard to sightreading one time was the fact that after a certain amount of practice and association with the notes on the page, the symbols suddenly make sense.  So, I guess the idea would be to have so much of it make SO much sense that it makes sense at sight, vs. needing the practice.  

I will say, though, that whatever my first post is, I definitely am looking for ways to narrow it all down into a much more concise thought!

Hi m1469,

Discussions whether a piano piece is easy or difficult is a favorite among piano players as I always hear this among my son's friends.  I also teach (not the piano) and I feel that this issue falls in the realm of "RELATIVITY"; a major component being the innate skills and musicality of the student as always it is the case in any endeavor. So that a group of engineering students may find a math concept easy to deal with while those in a humanities class will be at a loss.  Of course there is agreement in a general way that pieces are more difficult than others ... and that beginners preferably should tackle these and intermediates that and advanced students can start with those.

I however find it more disadvantageous dealing too much with pros and cons about the whole range of issues of a particular problem or piece.  I see this tendency on your part to dissect too much an issue, sometimes as if it were a moral or philosophical issue requiring a definitive resolution. In my opinion it will tend to bog you down.  I am not saying that one should not take stock of the major obstacles, but should not deal too much with the nitty-gritty as that will often create anxieties in one's brain and will affect one's drive.  It is just like taking driving lessons for the 1st time .... if one were to deal with all the issues, many will give up before starting as the accident side of driving is so fearsome.  There is this motto which says ... "just do it" .... which probably should be the case in piano playing as long as it will not injure the student.  It lends to encouragement and boosts self esteem if one does well .... it makes th student realize things (that in fact the piece is too difficult) ....  and for some the joy and fun of trying to play the piece.  If too much analysis and dissection come before the 1st note is played ... at the very least a lot of the joy will be removed and the piece may become a chore to be overcome.  Just me .

hmmm... Well, yes, I do see your points regarding my tendencies.  And, I do agree that there is a large degree of relativety in what makes something easy vs. not.  That was part of what got me thinking, though, and part of the basic thing that got me questioning.  The very fact that something that used to be difficult but can at some point become easy, means to me that something specific is taking place and I want to know what that is!  There is something specific about it all and it's one of those ideas that is just "presenting" itself to me at the piano, and in some way I feel like I'm staring right at it but it's like I can't quite see it for some reason, yet.  It's like it's some feather tickling my mind from right behind what I can currently understand and so, yes, I tend to become entranced by the tickling and the glimpsing!   I can't go to the piano without it being present, you see?  Whereas before some point, it didn't seem to be there at all.  Now it's there and it's just enticing me to figure it out!

Part of it, too, is that with the Baby Pieces Project, not only did I start to realize what I've been able to post about so far, but also I am starting to hear what I am specifically sounding like when something is easy for me.  Not just what music sounds like or a particular piece, that's all in there, too, but what my own, specific musical/pianistic voice sounds like when it's confident and in control (and, you can hear the same sort of thing in Littletune's recording, as well).  And, part of what got my mind tickling is that I started realizing that I somehow need to carry that sound over into all of my music.  That's a big part of what I'm looking for in my endeavors.  I need my biggest pieces to sound like "baby pieces," and even though I know practice is requisite, I'm not trying to get out of that one, ... there's something else I need to be seeing ... I can just tell!

ACTUALLY, I've been thinking about this longer than I thought!  haha.  When Ladypianist posted a recording of Islamey (sorry, I'll look it up and correct the spelling in a second), I asked her if it ever felt like a small piece to her.  That is what I meant!  Whoever played that piece in that recording was at such a point that the piece sounded small in a way.  It's like the performer was bigger than the piece, but I wanted to know if that was really possible to have happen and if that's what we are, in fact, aiming for, in a sense.  I think I heard correctly, but apparently LadyPianist was not the one to be answering that question.

[nanabush]

For me, if I look at the piece and have NO CLUE what it would sound like, it's probably going to be difficult to learn.

One of my friends plays for fun, on her own.  She used to take lessons and is about at a grade 7 level RCM (late intermediate roughly).  If I were to show her the Liebestraum, she'd spend about an hour 'decoding' the first few bars.  She hasn't seen arpeggiated left hand stuff, small cadenza notation, extensive use of accidentals in a more difficult key, etc, etc.  The same thing would go for me if I were to look at most modern music.  New forms of notation, chord textures, techniques would bog me down and really make me spend a load of times figuring out. 

If I take a Chopin Etude, I can probably work my way through it reasonably quickly (polishing it is another story), because I've seen the majority of those techniques in a huge variety of pieces.

It's really relative to what you are used to playing/reading.  There was a thread on this a little while ago asking what composers were easier to sight read or play, or something along those lines.  I'd take Rachmaninoff or Liszt before Bach or Haydn any day!

When I go to my lesson, my teacher usually destroys me on how I play what people on the forum would call an 'easy' piece by Bach - a prelude and fugue.  It takes me a LOT of work to get the correct voicing and really 'get' the contrapuntal writing.  I've played loads of Debussy, so when I start a new piece by him, I just have this frame of mind to go into when absorbing new content.

A little 13 year old playing a two part invention would probably laugh at me if I was playing the same piece (much worse than her), but there's probably a good chance she'd look at Pagodes and go "what, I can't read these notes".

For me, difficulty is relative, and Syllabi are largely overrated in terms of 'grading' pieces.

[m1469]

I see this tendency on your part to dissect too much an issue, sometimes as if it were a moral or philosophical issue requiring a definitive resolution. In my opinion it will tend to bog you down.  I am not saying that one should not take stock of the major obstacles, but should not deal too much with the nitty-gritty as that will often create anxieties in one's brain and will affect one's drive.

haha ... I didn't think I was doing this, initially, but I have just realized (in the past 20 minutes) that I do, in fact, think of it as a moral issue!  My desire to play the big stuff, and to play it as though it is easy, is actually some kind of moral issue for me.  And, it's related to performing, too.  And, the moral issue I have between both of those is in fact pretty deep, it's been a huge obstacle for me, and it is something I need to sort out.  But, I didn't even consciously realize what in the world was going on until just in the last 20 minutes.  Maybe for some kind of onlooker it's difficult to understand what in the world I am going on about, but this is maybe one of THEE most major obstacles for me and has been for WAY too long ... years and years now.  It's been there in some form all along, but I didn't know how much it was stopping me from accomplishing what I need.  There have been other problems, but there is a certain root to a main problem, too, and I found it!  WOOT!

I'm going to sort it out, though .  Thanks!  

[landru]

Right now I am re-visiting a piece that I attempted a few years ago (a Mendelssohn Song w/o words). At the time I got the "A" theme reasonably well, but the "B" theme was just one chord after another for me and it sounded like a mess. But I didn't think it was "difficult" - I just didn't know how to play the chords easily yet. Little did I know...

After a few years of technique building where I can now listen to and reasonably bring out a melody in the top line of a thick passage - I can now make the "B" theme sound like music. But back then I didn't have the experience or technique to even know what the real difficulties were! It wasn't just the chords - it was beyond that even. And I'm sure that there are some further difficulties I'm not even aware of that I'll discover later.

I believe that I lucked out by not labelling the piece as difficult when I first saw it - it allowed me to attack it with the abilities I had then without extra tension or expectations. Now I play it like it is almost easy - which it really is. If I had thought it was difficult (like I do with some pieces) there would be places where I just have blocks because my labeling has preconceived hesitations in my approach, my mind says "Here Be Monsters".

What I would love to do is be able to start learning a piece and go "This is how my hands would move if this was easy..." I think that is an admirable thing to practice - thinking of the end result the whole time as being easy. Because except for the real monsters of the repertoire, at some point it becomes somewhat easy to *someone*!

[tds]

dunno coz nothin is easy 4 me