"Tiger mother"

[quantum]

See here:
https://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/41005969/ns/today-books/

I imagine some of you may have come across parents with similar dispositions. 

What say ye?

[gep]

See here:
https://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/41005969/ns/today-books/

I imagine some of you may have come across parents with similar dispositions. 

What say ye?

I heard of this, yes. Horrendous! I think that being a parent is all about encouraging and helping one's children in deploying their (i.e. the kid's) potential and securely finding their own place in life. This book seems to be all about using one's children like a thing; to enhance one's own (rather inflated) ego. Someone who treats his/her children accoring to this book is abusing his/her children I think. Luckily, my parents were rather different. But I once had in my class a girl who had parents like the book's. Things didn't end happily for that girl....

all best,
gep

[ted]

The whole issue is very complicated and generalisations should be avoided. We seem to have preoccupation with extremes thrust upon us these days. Media like to stir up divisions by association instead of searching for an optimum general strategy for the betterment of the majority. Quiet common sense doesn't sell. A "Tiger Mother" and a lax, permissive environment for children are both sensational extremes which are best avoided. Discipline is vital to the upbringing of children, and I am inclined to agree that these days, on the whole, most parents are not strict enough - at least where I live. A certain amount of competition can be a healthy thing if applied judiciously, in the right places and at the right times, but to live as if one's life were a battle for breath is just plain stupid.

Freedom and discipline are two faces of the one coin; you cannot have one without the other, either socially or individually, for too long without adverse consequences. And the discipline which counts in the end is self-discipline, without which real personal freedom is impossible. Therefore while external, imposed discipline is necessary in the early years, it is important that its end is understood to be a creative, voluntary self-discipline. If this is not so, then like those who spend many years in occupations being ordered what to do in knee-jerk fashion, we shall be gravely lost when the surrounding enforcement is removed.

Certain things the Tiger Mother says I am inclined to agree with. Television, for example, needs particular care, and ought not to be used as a child minder. Other assertions are ridiculous and limiting. What precisely is special about a piano and a violin ? If the saxophone or the drum speaks to the child's heart then that is the correct instrument to encourage. I agree that parents ought first to assume that the teacher is correct, that any authority is correct, and take the child's part against authority with the utmost reluctance, and only after circumstances prove it justified. In all of my son's schooldays, only one such occasion happened to me.

So in total, I feel the Tiger Mother is not so much wrong for using discipline per se, but wrong because she is using it to misguided ends and in neglect of any wider perception of what it means to be a human being in the total sense of the word.

[birba]

That was Becky's mother!!!!
At first listening I was sort of taken aback - but the kids did seem normal and happy.  And I think you really have to take how she disciplines in HER particular family context.  A lot of things she said and did with her kids might have devastated others but not in her house.  Because they've been brought up a certain way and don't expect pats on the head and "encouragement" western-style.  And her younger daughter rebelled, which is speaking a lot for her methods.  And like she said, her husband is the other side of the spectrum who evens things out.

[pianisten1989]

Obviously, I would get sad if my parents said that I was a shame for the family, but, as she said, I really regret the fact that I've spent hours on stupid computer games and what not.

Most teenagers do some kind of revolt against their parents anyway. It's lame that she blames the parents for it...

[kelly_kelly]

That was Becky's mother!!!!
At first listening I was sort of taken aback - but the kids did seem normal and happy.  And I think you really have to take how she disciplines in HER particular family context.  A lot of things she said and did with her kids might have devastated others but not in her house.  Because they've been brought up a certain way and don't expect pats on the head and "encouragement" western-style.  And her younger daughter rebelled, which is speaking a lot for her methods.  And like she said, her husband is the other side of the spectrum who evens things out.

They seemed normal and happy on screen... but I know people with parents like this, who forced them to achieve regardless of their wishes or feelings, and in my experience, their family relations tend to be significantly more strained and unhealthy. What's worse is that all of these kids' achievements can and have been replicated with much healthier parental attitudes - and I say this because I know loads of similarly-accomplished children with both types of parents.

[thebuchertrain]

https://tinyurl.com/3l7y3zl

[countrymath]

My  mother is just the oposite.

I would love to have a tiger mother... 

[sephethus]

Some of you won't like this, but I share this guy's opinion and yeah he doesn't know that playing a piece is complicated and a computer really can't replicate it.. yet, but overall that isn't his main point.

[slane]

I agree that that sort of parenting and indeed education, does not lead to creativity.
In this country parents of all races are showing a deplorable trend of comparing their kids and bragging about their 2 dimensional, but easily demonstrable, achievements. What's worse is that the schools collude with the parents, delivering what they want. I had to move my daughter after a brutal year in a school I describe to anyone who asks as "fiercely academic without being the least bit intellectual". My daughter is now happily ensconced in a school which has been accepted as an OECD innovative learning environment. The point of the OECD ILE study is to pin point educational practices which promote "life long learning" and isn't that what we want for our children?

[pianisten1989]

Parents using their kids as tools, and something that exists only for them to brag about, is ofc wring. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

But as she says, how is it better to say "Nah, maybe you aren't suited for piano, or soccer, or whatever, as soon as there are some difficulties? As she says: They will have far worse self-esteem if they quit whenever something is difficult, and then doesn't succeed in what they want to do in the future (auditions to schools etc.). I don't really like the "You useless brat, go and practise!!" But I also don't like what I wrote above...

[faa2010]

My parents are also strict, but in what they consider important for themselves.

They have remarked that the most important thing is to do what makes us happy.  However, time comes when they start to contradict themselves, wanting to control one's life, then returning to a "laissez-faire" mode, denying what they demanded before and putting excuses (ie your own defects) to hide it, and that is more frustrating and annoying than when parents are truly honest and openly admit that they are selfish, they still think in control one's life and force us to do certain things because they see them right and that can lead us to "the path of happiness".

And what is funny is that even though certain experiences have proved them wrong, they still do it as if a reset button technique was made the next day of the event.

I don't say that demanding is bad, been demanding is fine as long as it doesn't deteriorate someone's health (physical and/or emotional).  I am just saying that if a parent is demanding something, at least he or she doesn't have to demand something different the next day. IE, my mother demands to get a work near my father's, and a few minutes later, she returns and say in the same imperative way don't do it.

[jzp93]

See here:
https://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/41005969/ns/today-books/

I imagine some of you may have come across parents with similar dispositions. 

What say ye?

I'm Asian, my parents were strict in a reasonable wa
I am strict w my son but I TOTALLY DISAGREE w tiger mom.
Some of her needs were not met growing up and
she's meeting those needs now by doing this to her kids.
It makes her feel good. What are they, robots? To be
treated like a thing and use as a status symbol?
She's not right up there and its scary that people
listen to her.

[pianoplayjl]

As a result of tiger moms pushing their children so hard I think it has become very hard to distinguish between a child prodigy and a fake child prodigy. I woulldn't want to have a tiger mother like her.

[49410enrique]

As a result of tiger moms pushing their children so hard I think it has become very hard to distinguish between a child prodigy and a fake child prodigy. I woulldn't want to have a tiger mother like her.

usually in cases like this we would apply the old definition of virtuosity, which simplified says demonstrate incredible creativity while doing the common uncommonly well (the is, the finest illustration or originality with execution of flawless fundamentals), that is we look for individuals technically capable of successfuly negotiating large mature works, but who choose to demonstrate the highest maturity and musicality in 'simpler' works, such as masterful execution or less demanding works traditionally played by students on their way up the learning ladder, there are lots of examples in the recorded lit/record of the greats doing this.

usually those that are pushed (by others, vs. themselves) don't display wthat elusive passion coupled with complete mastery consistently across their performances.

[pianoplayjl]

True at what you're saying although I don't understand 1 half of it.

[faa2010]

As a result of tiger moms pushing their children so hard I think it has become very hard to distinguish between a child prodigy and a fake child prodigy. I woulldn't want to have a tiger mother like her.

This issue about distinguishing prodigies and fake ones has been presented since long time ago.  It was mostly remarkable during Mozart's times, where parents wanted their children to outstand in the music area in order to be the next Mozart.

Fond for the activity and working hard are the keys for success. 

However, if one turns the activity into a burden, something to do by force, the true fondness and enjoyment for the activity will be in jeopardy, leading to two options:

1. Taking seriously the activity and forgetting to enjoy it.
2. Quiting and not doing it for a while.

[pianoplayjl]

This issue about distinguishing prodigies and fake ones has been presented since long time ago.  It was mostly remarkable during Mozart's times, where parents wanted their children to outstand in the music area in order to be the next Mozart.

Beethoven was forced to practise by his daddy but instead mostly improvised at the piano. Probably not as prodigious as Mozart but his composing ability is probably more prodigious IMO than Mozart though he easily though of musical ideas.

Most pianists are admitted to conservatories because they are prodigies. Have you noticed that as soon as families discover prodigies that they become tiger parents themselves (at least some of them) and force their kids to practice 6 hours a day? And there are those who never studied in conservatories but instead practice countless hours a day and manage to make it to the big stage.
Basically similar to what I just posted weeks ago.

JL

[williampiano]

I think all parents should raise their children just like my parents raise me. They shouldn't be like tiger moms, where they don't let their children ever have fun and practically make their childhoods miserable. But I do think parents should enforce good grades and encourage their kids to do any instruments or sports of their choice.

[pianoplayjl]

Rather I think that tiger mothers are actually limiting their child's creativity and IMO I think a normal child can achieve what a tig-mom's child practices because the normal child is practicing in their own free will and they want to do it unlike tiger children being forced by their parents.

But I do think parents should enforce good grades and encourage their kids to do any instruments or sports of their choice.

The latter part of your statement I agree with you. I was forced by my parents to learn the piano and now I appreciate it. No I think parents should not enforce good grades. Parents should instead encourage their children to try the best because this brings the best in everyone and the child doesn't feel pressured.

JL

[williampiano]

I was forced by my parents to learn the piano and now I appreciate it.

I agree, same with me. But, I do think it is a good idea for parents to let their children choose which instrument they learn, just because it can make the experience more fun. As I would've hated it if my parents had made me learn the violin or the trumpet, which was very possible.

[pianoplayjl]

I agree, same with me. But, I do think it is a good idea for parents to let their children choose which instrument they learn, just because it can make the experience more fun. As I would've hated it if my parents had made me learn the violin or the trumpet, which was very possible.

Agreed. I never had the opportunity to choose what instrument I get to learn other than the guitar which I learnt before the piano. The Tiger Mother did not let her daughters choose their instruments and forced one of them to learn two. I'd hate it if this happened to me. Three years ago in year 7 I was forced to learn the violin because of an instrumental program which IMO was stupid. My parents and sister now realised I was better off learning the violin which I disagree.

JL