Hailun and Wendl & Lung

[johnlewisgrant]

These are unrepentently Chinese piano brands.   I say 'unrepentent' because all the others seem, as far as I can tell, to hide behind German-sounding titles.

Anyhow, the question is: what do folks know about them?

They aren't really marketed up here in Toronto, but I happened to play a Hailun 7'2 inch grand the other day.  It was in the same room as 2 rebuilt Steinway Bs, one a 1997 model, the other much older.  Also in the same room was a 9 ft Steingraeber.   Net research tells me that the Hailun 218 same piano as the Wendl & Lung 218 (also a brand which I've never heard of and which isn't really sold up here).

I must say, I was stunned by the action and quality of sound coming out of this piano..... horrible confession: I preferred it to either of the Steinways .... although not the Steingraeber .... thank God .... because if that had been the case I would have wanted my head examined.  Not really a Toronto piano, but apparently you can find them in the States.   Any experience with these?   The 218 was, to my ears, vastly superior to any Chinese piano I've ever played, and as good as many German makes.

[keys60]

No need to have your head examined. Although I'm not personally acquainted with the Hailun brand yet, this past issue of the Piano Technicians Guild gave some positive reviews from the NAMM show to the Hailun and other Asian brands as well. You like what you like. If enough qualified players really like it and techs as well, my guess is the Chinese are serious competitors. By what I've read, there are a few cost cutting features such as unfinished bridge caps and laminated soundboards instead of solid spruce, but these savings get passed on to the consumer and do not necessarily mean bad.
Many actions have plastic parts which sounds cheap, but plastic is impervious to humidity changes.
We have to change our way of thinking.

[silverwoodpianos]

 By what I've read, there are a few cost cutting features such as unfinished bridge caps and laminated soundboards instead of solid spruce, but these savings get passed on to the consumer and do not necessarily mean bad.

Many actions have plastic parts which sounds cheap, but plastic is impervious to humidity changes.

We have to change our way of thinking.

 Yes we certainly do have the change the way we think. For example;

Plastic parts can be found in pianos built in America and Canada from 1974.
 
Unfinished bridge caps can be found in a variety of pianos both domestically manufactured and imports from the 50's.

Laminated sounding boards can be found in domestically manufactured pianos from the 70’s as well as many of the imports made today in Asia.

However none of these facts apply to this particular piano.

In fact, if I recall correctly, Hailun Chen originally started as a parts and action maker who soon came to the attention of Mr. Schultz (Bechstein) and other piano builders.

Expanding to production of pianos themselves seems to be a natural for some like this; I believe that Wessel Nickel & Gross had a production line of pianos or one of the N. American action makers did anyways…maybe it was Pratt- Read…..

Out of the 206 piano factories in China today Hailun is the only privately owned one.

The 7ft. Hailun instrument is their flagship piano I believe.

 Specs for this are here:

https://www.hailun-pianos.com/piano.php?model_id=5&category_id=1&polish_id=1
 
Regarding Wendl & Lung; don’t quote me, but I am not sure if this instrument is manufactured any longer….. maybe under a different name possibly…...
 

[keys60]

Purists be damned?

[johnlewisgrant]

I should have the 218 in my music room on Thursday.   I chose it over innumerable slightly used Steinway Bs, none of which quite equalled it from my admittedly narrow aesthetic standpoint.   I suppose that sounds completely outrageous.  Truth be told, from my own very unobjectively biased perspective, the Bs weren't as appealing.  Although I'm not partial to the Bos sound, which the 218 is probably closer to, I had no doubt whatsoever that this quasi-Bos-type instrument would be a better fit for me than all the New York Steinway Bs that I sampled in Toronto.  

No, it's not as convincing on Bach wtc, Beethoven Sonatas, Shostakovitch prel. and fugues and the Steingraeber it stood next to, but it more than held its own against the Steinways in this particular rep., at least, the against Steinway Bs that happened to be in the same acoustical space (room).   Cheap-looking keys and overall aesthetic be damned: I preferred the sound of the Hailun 218 to the Bs that were next to it.  

Sue me.

John Lewis Grant

[quantum]

Congrats on your piano.

Out of curiosity, where was the place that had these instruments?

[johnlewisgrant]

Purchased the 218 at the Piano House, Richmond Hill, Ontario (a suburb of Toronto).

JG

[silverwoodpianos]

Purists be damned?

Pretty much the case; actually early plastics can be found in pianos as far back as the late 40’s and early 50’s with those plastic elbows in the drop action spinets like the Betsy Ross and other models if I recall correctly.

The problem with the early plastics was the fact that the catalyst used continued to work even after the plastic set resulting in the product becoming too hard and brittle causing the inevitable breakage experienced.

I have a stock of old Heintzman & Co parts from Germany in the mid 70’s with the plastic jack and plastic flanges; Renner parts I believe; I would have to dig them out to be sure of that part.

Remember that the product used now in piano actions is commonly called carbon fibre. A number of companies are using carbon fibre now.

Here is an opinion from Germany on the matter;

“Cost saving measures, that's all. They all inquired first with Renner wanting to "save" costs. Got it from Renner's top honcho.

By the way I saw an extensive research documentary about plastic action parts by Renner filmed in time lapse, there will be lots of people scratching heads as time goes by... Renner told me "if this stuff is better technology, we would have long adopted" Unfortunately it's not. Just wait....”

[silverwoodpianos]

Purchased the 218 at the Piano House, Richmond Hill, Ontario (a suburb of Toronto).

JG

Enjoy the new instrument John.

[keys60]

So, Dan, do you think the new Mason Hamlins will not stand the test of time?

[silverwoodpianos]

Well, I don’t believe that the carbon fibre parts have been in the marketplace long enough to determine longevity of them.
Think of why the piano manufacturers stopped with the plastic jacks and flanges. Think about manufacturing and why they would abandon certain products. Business tends to be risk adverse and migrates towards stability.

[keys60]

Dan,

I agree with your last post but also add when the public hears plastic they think cheap and avoid the product. i keep a pretty good supply of those spinet elbows on hand. They do get brittle.

[johnlewisgrant]

For anyone who may happen to glance at this thread on the Hailun 218, I have pulled the action: there are NO plastic parts at all, for better or worse.

The only plastic in this piano is the surface of the keys.  Natch: ivory hasn't been legal for years.

By the way, I've been playing the 218 about 2 hours a day (on average) for about 6 months and there have been no issues.  Continues to delight me, indeed, astonish me.  I should sample (again) a Steinway B in DECENT shape to make sure that my ears are still accurate.

I've played one or two B's at University of Toronto, and this thing blows the socks off them.  As for Kawai's much-esteemed Shigeru Action (and the sound that comes with it), sorry.... there's no competition.  I'd take this action over it any day.

I just don't see how any serious musician/pianist playing what's on the market right now in the 7 foot range could not seriously entertain the thought of owning this instrument.  The only downside is that cogniscenti will question the absence of the "Steinway & Sons" label on the piano.  But once you hear this piano, you get very quickly--and completely--sucked in on a musical level.  The overtones are SOOO much richer and more interesting than on any comparable Steinway.  Much more Bos-ish. 

And the touch permits ppp with ease--not the case with ANY Steinway I've ever played.  Bos is the competition in my view, and the Japanese pianos aren't even in the running at this level.  Larry Fine be damned.  There's no way he ever played or tested out the Hailun 218s against comparable German pianos.  We're not talking automobiles, where the Germans remain dominant.   We're talking pianos, where if this particular instrument is any measure their splendid dominance is seriously in doubt.  All the Germans have, in my view, is cred.  But how long will that last???   Yes, the Hamburg Steinway, the Steingraeber, the Bos and no doubt a few other ultra-high end pianos are different, MAYBE more refined--I'm not sure, but at 100k plus???   And that Italian brand, the one that dare not speak its name, is just plain not as sweet-sounding.  Somewhat, perhaps even more than somewhat, metallic by comparison.

Cheers,

JG

[starstruck5]

Interesting post. The name on the piano is irrelevant if it rocks your world.

I've played a Wendl&Lung Grand and Upright - can't remember the models - they were both pretty good.  I think Wendl is owned by Feurich - and now uses the German name - 

[49410enrique]

i've also played on the big hailun, it is a very nice piano and reasonably priced if your going the new route. that said depending on your local market at about the same price point if you can find a really nicely maintained used baldwin sf-10, that is one sweet piano, not putting the hailun try down but in mint condition at that price i think it should be a strong consideration if someone is thinking of going the 7 footer route.

[willvenables]

Indeed, Hailun are decent instruments. The Wendl & Lung 218 Stephen Paulello grand - which i understand to be the same as the Hailun (factory name) branded model - has a fine bass - very pure, with a dark tenor and singing treble. I don't feel it has the dynamic range or power of a Steinway B, nor a Yamaha C6 - but it is a different piano that suits anyone wanting its qualities.

Our Venables & Son pianos are made at the Hailun factory and are based on the Hailun equivalent models, but with unique features to our 'bespoke' specification. Our customers, both private, professional and institutional are very happy with the result. The design and build of a piano need to be good in the first instance. 'Bolting on' upgraded components is simply not enough. For us, the design of the frames, scaling, soundboard & bridge profiles and the characteristic in tone from these strung-backs was particularly appealing. The wet-sand cast frames are quite rare these days and although less efficiently produced than modern vacuum-cast methods due the finishing required, the resulting higher density of these frames helps to fill-out the tone and give more body.

In our pianos from Hailun, the keyboard cloth and felt, keys, hammers, strings and soundboards are of different specification to the standard equivalent models. They are not simply 'own brand'.

Having supplied many new Wendl & Lung pianos, we were impressed with Hailun's build and quality and were delighted that they would make our pianos for us. Our custom-200 grand is based on the Pro.198 model, but we asked for a new frame cast... having revised the scaling in the tenor by experimenting with different hammer shank lengths, we found an optimum strike point giving a fuller, clearer tenor and the cooperation from Hailun and designer Frank Emerson was quite refreshing!

The recent Wendl & Lung models and the new Feurich branded models (superseding W&L) certainly do get our recommendation. We don't keep Feurich (Hailun) as it is somewhat conflicting to offer these alongside our own series. There are many very good pianos we don't stock - not because we don't like them - but because we can't keep everything and we feel a range of 3 very different makes at similar prices with a range of sizes within each make, is a better selection to offer without it getting too confusing! Just like putting Kawai next to Yamaha - both very good, but really, we don't think there is as much of a difference between Yamaha-Kawai as there is between Yamaha-Brodmann-Venables.

To be completely transparent, sure - there are some fine details we would like to see improved, such as cabinet finishing - but I think of all the things one could find fault with in a piano, the cabinet finishing is frankly the least important - when it is already good and the piano in performance terms is very good indeed.

On second thoughts, the specification/material of the Hailun cabinets themselves - rather than the standard of the polish finishing - is particularly high. Upright sides and lids are multi-laminated hardwoods - not mdf or chipboard as found in many more expensive pianos - and this definitely makes the piano's cabinet more acoustically-stubborn, resulting in less dilution of soundboard resonance.

I honestly could not say this 10 years ago... but "made in China" is not a bad thing. It guarantees a low price which in turn could be used to up-spec. the quality and still arrive at an affordable price. I do want to be supporting of European piano production too... but there also needs to be demand from the piano market of a certain specification, origin and acceptance of the realistic price to pay for what it does actually cost to make, distribute and supply a decent piano in Europe without cutting corners. Looking at our sales figures 20 yrs ago, it is true to say that the average upright piano price was £3-8k and baby grands £5-10k, standard grands £10-20k, and it is the same today. Indeed, higher end pianos are considerably higher than they were then - but the standard of lower priced pianos has risen significantly to deal with competition in this market. A case of best price, then best quality within best price.

You may not be surprised to learn how much of a European piano can actually contain components from China - just like a Chinese piano may contain many European parts.

Today, it is certainly important to be open-minded when looking at pianos. Just because the piano isn't made in Germany and the factory hasn't been around for 100years, it does not mean it is not to be seriously considered.

[johnlewisgrant]

Update on my Hailun 218: I've been experimenting with different mics for the piano.  Tried several... here's 2 AKG 451 b mics about 6ft outside the lid, which is at full stick.  The mics are about 8ft apart.  Forgive my Bach!

https://www.box.com/s/cilx8e6kug0zx4p23pkx
Cheers,

Jg

[leopard_md]

Hi John,

Love the recording! Piano sounds amazing.

I too am a huge fan of the 218. I played a couple in a recent piano search (as the Wendl & Lung version, as I'm in the UK) and was amazed by the action, tone, dynamic range and build quality.

I had to accept however that it was just going to be too big and powerful for my music room, so luckily I also adored the smaller Wendl & Lung 178.

I've had my W&L 178 for 7 months now. It replaced a larger, 110 year old refurbished Bechstein which *should* of course have been a far superior instrument, especially as the refurb work was done to a high standard. The 178 blows it out the water in every respect and every time I sit down to play it, I discover more I like about it. It arrived with me in the height of summer, has just been through a very cold and damp winter, and has coped incredibly well, especially for a brand new piano. It had its second in-house tuning this week and my tech commented on how well it had behaved in terms of stability.

I love its tone; it doesn't try to 'copy' any other piano but has a voice of its own. I love its appearance; its large, solid legs, plate colour and clean design make it look much more expensive than it was. I love the attention that has clearly gone into its design, for instance the mixture of loop and single-stringing throughout the tenor section, giving the impression that there was far more thought put into the construction of these pianos than might be expected at the price range. Lastly I love the way it plays. It can be rich, mellow, delicate, bright, brassy even, depending on how you play. The tone and the action together are so flexible that they allow far more expression, in my opinion, than any Yamaha or Kawai I've ever come across.

These are without a doubt very special pianos, made more so by virtue of their value and, yes, perhaps the 'surprise element' of a relatively unknown name delivering so much.

[49410enrique]

Hi John,

Love the recording! Piano sounds amazing.

I too am a huge fan of the 218. I played a couple in a recent piano search (as the Wendl & Lung version, as I'm in the UK) and was amazed by the action, tone, dynamic range and build quality.

I had to accept however that it was just going to be too big and powerful for my music room, so luckily I also adored the smaller Wendl & Lung 178.

I've had my W&L 178 for 7 months now. It replaced a larger, 110 year old refurbished Bechstein which *should* of course have been a far superior instrument, especially as the refurb work was done to a high standard. The 178 blows it out the water in every respect and every time I sit down to play it, I discover more I like about it. It arrived with me in the height of summer, has just been through a very cold and damp winter, and has coped incredibly well, especially for a brand new piano. It had its second in-house tuning this week and my tech commented on how well it had behaved in terms of stability.

I love its tone; it doesn't try to 'copy' any other piano but has a voice of its own. I love its appearance; its large, solid legs, plate colour and clean design make it look much more expensive than it was. I love the attention that has clearly gone into its design, for instance the mixture of loop and single-stringing throughout the tenor section, giving the impression that there was far more thought put into the construction of these pianos than might be expected at the price range. Lastly I love the way it plays. It can be rich, mellow, delicate, bright, brassy even, depending on how you play. The tone and the action together are so flexible that they allow far more expression, in my opinion, than any Yamaha or Kawai I've ever come across.

These are without a doubt very special pianos, made more so by virtue of their value and, yes, perhaps the 'surprise element' of a relatively unknown name delivering so much.

you've got a super nice piano. congrats.  the 'direct' heat source in the background so close to the instrument is a bit scary, please tell me that thing doesn't get super hot, i'm not a tech but i would think temperature extremes from one one of the isntrument to the other might be be supergreat? again i like your piano but just wanted to throw this out there in case someone more knowledgeable than i can weigh in for my future knowledge.

[leopard_md]

Hey, thanks for the comment!

The wood-burning stove in the background has not been used since we put a piano in this room 5 years ago! I absolutely agree it would be potentially a very bad thing for the piano, being so close to the tail.

FYI we live in a coastal area with summer relative humidity in excess of 75%, and cold damp winters. The room is heated by a thermostatically-controlled radiator, and I've got a dehumidifier which keeps the relative humidity of the room around 50-55%. Handily the room is also north-facing so there is never any direct sunlight either. 

[johnlewisgrant]

I played a 178 at Grand Piano House.   Great piano.... the same instrument that was mistaken for a Schimmel (or a Steinway... I forget which) in a blind piano test in France.

I've been playing around with microphones on the 218.   Here's a somewhat accurate account of the 218 sound:

https://www.box.com/s/ctsg3mjrl5c6ebmg788v


(Bach WTC 2 C major prelude)....

I'll try something a little more romantic in a day or two, once I figure everything out..

JG