weight

[pianoviolin]

When I'm alone practising my whole weight is going through and nothing is blocking it, but then when it comes to my piano lesson or when I'm performing I always tend to block my weight going through onto the keys by lifting up shoulders and have tension in my arms. Any suggestions or even exercises on what I can do to stop this happening?

[nyiregyhazi]

When I'm alone practising my whole weight is going through and nothing is blocking it, but then when it comes to my piano lesson or when I'm performing I always tend to block my weight going through onto the keys by lifting up shoulders and have tension in my arms. Any suggestions or even exercises on what I can do to stop this happening?

I just wrote a post about exactly that:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.com/2011/04/hunched-shoulders-why-do-they-really.html

Please let me know how you get on and whether it helps. Also, it strikes me that your hand may be underactive- meaning that you don't have any way to stabilise the slight trembling when you get nervous. I used to have major problems with exactly the same thing. The support needs to come from both ends.

[keyboardclass]

You must know when you need to tense (contract) muscles and when you don't.  For the moment of key depression you're going to have tension, after that just flop (though keep the wrist level).  Beware of any technique that requires constant tension.  Try my blog instead - https://keyboardclass.blogspot.com . A much easier read!

[omar_roy]

When I'm alone practising my whole weight is going through and nothing is blocking it, but then when it comes to my piano lesson or when I'm performing I always tend to block my weight going through onto the keys by lifting up shoulders and have tension in my arms. Any suggestions or even exercises on what I can do to stop this happening?

Sounds to me like it's more a case of nerves than anything.  It's perfectly natural to be a bit nervous in your lesson (i know i always am), and nerves are totally expected during performance.  Being nervous causes us to do some pretty weird things that we, sometimes, never really experience when practicing, like producing unnecessary tension. 

Before you start to play for your teacher or your audience, be sure to take a deep breath and feel yourself relax from your head all the way to your toes!  Whenever you have a short rest in the piece, perform a quick body check and mentally take note of any excess tension and then relax it.  Eventually you get to the point where excess tension as a result of nervousness is minimal to nonexistent because your mind and body will decide that it's simply easier to remain relaxed rather than to have to continue checking in and re-relaxing everything.

The gist of it is just relax!

[nyiregyhazi]

You must know when you need to tense (contract) muscles and when you don't.  For the moment of key depression you're going to have tension, after that just flop (though keep the wrist level).  Beware of any technique that requires constant tension.  Try my blog instead - https://keyboardclass.blogspot.com . A much easier read!

So, you are advocating the arms sliding off the keyboard between notes? Nice...

It's all very easy to pretend that it takes no effort to hold the arms in the air, without the hand helping to support them in any way. However pretending that there's no such thing as gravity (and that it's not less effort overall, when the hand takes some of the supporting role), is also rooted in ignorance towards proven facts.

[keyboardclass]

Arms sliding off the keyboard!? I suppose that goes with your danger-of-falling-off-the-piano-stool notions?

[nyiregyhazi]

Arms sliding off the keyboard!? I suppose that goes with your danger-of-falling-off-the-piano-stool notions?

There's a reason why surveyors don't build bridges that are only anchored to anything at one end. That reason being that supporting outstretched structures from two ends is inherently lower in effort- and not just a little bit less. Try thinking about that next time you repeat the thing about constant tension.

[keyboardclass]

There's a reason why surveyors don't build bridges that are only anchored to anything at one end.

You have to wonder why we're built with arm free at one end too.  Jeez, one lousy design in your book!

[nyiregyhazi]

You have to wonder why we're built with arm free at one end too.  Jeez, one lousy design in your book!

The shoulder is only free if it's supported at the other end. Otherwise something has to hold it there. An arm cannot "hang" outstretched- unless it hangs between TWO points.

[keyboardclass]

The shoulder is only free if it's supported at the other end. Otherwise something has to hold it there. An arm cannot "hang" outstretched- unless it hangs between TWO points.

And if the arm 'hangs' in your sense, fixed at both ends, it ain't much use.

[nyiregyhazi]

And if the arm 'hangs' in your sense, fixed at both ends, it ain't much use.

Indeed. The whole purpose of hanging between two points is to ensure there's no requirement of fixing at either (unlike at the shoulder when it's held out without support at the hand end) Are you interested in actually thinking about this? Only two points of support permit release. Fixing only comes into it when stability is done from a solitary point of support. Putting "spin" on physics does not change what is possible and neither will it improve your ability.

[keyboardclass]

Are you interested in actually thinking about this?

No, in the same way I'm not thinking how pigs could fly.  Neither hypothesis has a shred of evidence for it. 

[nyiregyhazi]

No, in the same way I'm not thinking how pigs could fly.  Neither hypothesis has a shred of evidence for it.  

Hold out a sword horizontally for a minute. Then rest the end on something and see if it's any less effort. You'll find it's substantially less. That's a lot more than a shred of evidence. Why are you intent on denying reality? Sticking your fingers in your ears will not relieve your arms of effort (although ironically, it would be a lot less effort if you did so in a literal sense, than when you hold them over the piano).

[keyboardclass]

Hold out a sword horizontally for a minute.

Then try and play the piano with it!

[nyiregyhazi]

Then try and play the piano with it!

Or worse still, a stiff arm that has been held in a comparably high-effort way. I am sure that sarcasm will do your piano playing a lot of good. If you're not interested in thinking about what determines possibility, don't get involved in discussion.

[keyboardclass]

If you're not interested in thinking about what determines possibility, don't get involved in discussion.

You can't call your rude delusional comments discussion.   They're blatant ad hominem attacks.  So let's leave it there.

[nyiregyhazi]

You can't call your rude delusional comments discussion.   They're blatant ad hominem attacks.  So let's leave it there.

Fine. You keep ignoring that the shoulder must work a hell of a lot harder without a second point of support. I and other pianists will keep exploiting the simple mechanical fact that using the keys to aid balance means substantially less effort for the arms. However, please do not waste my time asking for explanations and then ignoring them.

[thalbergmad]

Hold out a sword horizontally for a minute. Then rest the end on something and see if it's any less effort. You'll find it's substantially less.

For any forum members who do not have a sword, I can confirm I have just tried this and it is true.

Thal

[keyboardclass]

Then try and play the piano with it!

And then did you try this?

[thalbergmad]

Not yet, but there have been times when I have felt like attacking my piano with my sword.

Thal