Fingering for Chromatic thirds

[fleetfingers]

Grieg Piano Concerto Page 3 has descending chromatic thirds. Nothing feels comfortable and I don't want to get used to a fingering that is not optimal. Anyone play it? What fingering do you use?

[m1469]

Starting at DF on top, I would go:

5 4 3 4 3 5 4 3 4  3 4 3 5
3 2-2 1 2 1 2 1 2-2 1 2 1

[fleetfingers]

Thank you, m1469!   I keep skipping over that part because I'm not sure what to do with my fingers when I get there. I will try it out with the fingering you suggested. I appreciate you taking the time to post them!

[nyiregyhazi]

Starting at DF on top, I would go:

5 4 3 4 3 5 4 3 4  3 4 3 5
3 2-2 1 2 1 2 1 2-2 1 2 1

Why not use 5 and 1 at the top too, in an analagous way to the rest? I think it gives more control and physical stability. Personally I'd favour it over 53 in just about any instance where it's physically possible to use it.

[m1469]

Thank you, m1469!

You're welcome!

Why not use 5 and 1 at the top too, in an analagous way to the rest? I think it gives more control and physical stability. Personally I'd favour it over 53 in just about any instance where it's physically possible to use it.

There are three main reasons I would choose 53 over 51 in this case:

1)  That particular point is arriving at the top from a largish jump below and it's "closer" to get to 3 than it is to 1 (so, theoretically faster), so the distance that the hand must travel to get there by using 3 instead of 1 is smaller.

2)  The main reason to use 1 in the other cases is because that's what's already sitting there within the descent when using the fingering given, at the beginning it has to get there (related to reason #1). In the beginning, we haven't mentally established the pattern yet in the same way you do as you are traveling through the descent, so it's not (to me) actually breaking a pattern but signifying a beginning.

3)  I believe in hand cuing and 53 at the top makes sense to me as a landing "cue" for the jump and as a mental cue for the beginning of the descent.

Now, I didn't try the actual jump myself (though I've got similar jumps in the Czerny Toccata), actually, and borrowed a fingering for the jump from the Czerny toccata and from an almost identical passage within Chopet Op25/6.  Maybe I would try it and find that I hate 35 on top, but I doubt it!  Of course, there is no reason a person can't go against the reasoning and find a better reason to use something different!

[nyiregyhazi]

2)  The main reason to use 1 in the other cases is because that's what's already sitting there within the descent when using the fingering given.

That's the part I definitely wouldn't agree with. I don't think that's the main reason. I don't see 15 as simply being a way of filling a gap, but rather one of the most comfortable positions of all. It's not angled to one side of the hand, but naturally balances the arm is a very centralised feel. I think this makes a very secure way to start after a leap. Personally, I alternate between 15 and 42 for the r.h. thirds in the opening of the Horowitz Carmen variations. Later on, when the left hand is not there to help and you have to do the thirds in full, I actually move the thumb- rather than take it in one five finger position. Starting from the top, I prefer 15, 24, 13, 24, rather than 35, 24, 13, 24. It's a great way to keep the arm moving rather than locked up. There are also very useful ways to use 15 in the opening of the Beethoven op. 2 no. 3.

Not that I'm ruling out 35, but I definitely wouldn't see 15 as a mere gap filler in general. I often go out of my way specifically in order to use it and I know that many other pianists work the same way. Note that that Chopin's regular fingering for thirds never goes from 35-24 or vice versa. I think this is one of the hardest transitions to make. Also, musically it pays to establish the top of the descent, rather than hurry straight down without getting any feel of arrival first. Using the thumb is quite a good way of both getting a rounded sound and forcing the player to take a fraction more time, before really getting things moving down.

[iratior]

My suggested fingering would be:

    5435454343545
    1221212122121

while rotating my wrist counterclockwise three times and starting in a SE position.

[m1469]

Okay, I've actually tried 35 on top now and, jump or not, I hate it.