Bach/Liszt P&F in A minor fingering problems

[ianov]

Hi, I posted about this recently but put it in the wrong section. Having some problems working out fingering in some sections (see below), also not clear in places when it is best for left or right hand to take notes which are in the other stave. Any suggestions really welcome!

Also I know that some issues could be made easier by using the pedal, but though I'm not a purist and think that some judicious pedal really enhances Bach on the piano (and think he would have used it) I don't want to fudge passages. Sometimes finger substitutions seem really awkward but then organists have to do it all the time!

1. Is the pedal needed to hold the circled notes?
2. Right hand feels awkward with this any suggestions?
3. Any suggestions for fingering for left hand and what do you think of my right hand fingering?

[omar_roy]

For the first image:

Don't worry about those longer notes in the first image.  If you treat them melodically and shape that line, then the idea will get across.  Bach likely wanted those notes to simply be held for a long enough time so as to make it obvious that there is a distinct line there. Think of note values in dicey situations like this more as reminders of an idea rather than an explicit direction.


As for the 2nd and 3rd images, those substitutions are not unreasonable and I think you should do them.

I agree with you about pedal, and I use it myself in Bach sometimes.  Using it properly certainly enhances things, especially in his slower works.  However, in this instance, I think it would create an unnecessary blurring of texture.

[ianov]

Many thanks for replying and your comments about the clips. Your ideas about the long left hand notes are particularly releasing! 

I sometimes wonder whether when Bach wrote for the organ he was mindful of the overall acoustic affect of the instrument with the long reverbs that would be present in some of the churches he played in and whether he sometimes wrote to exploit this natural effect which wasn't possible on the instruments of his day. If he had a modern day piano maybe he would have used pedal a lot more than we think it proper to do for his works today! What do you think?

[omar_roy]

I'm not sure how much attention Bach must have paid to the acoustic effects of the instruments of his time.  Regarding the piano, I'm inclined to think that his writing would be very different if he had access to a modern piano.  We've seen the extent to which Bach's writing used every inch of capability that his instruments had.  I'm sure he would have used the piano to its fullest extent as well.

[ianov]

I forgot to post this clip which I am finding hard to finger where the fugue enters 4 parts for the first time, any suggestions please? In these two bars do the same principles apply as above re the held notes not necessarily needing to be kept to their full values? That would seem difficult esp in the second bar shown...

[omar_roy]

I forgot to mention this last time, but you might consider using the hardly used middle pedal (its name escapes me at the moment) to sustain some of the choice longer notes without blurring the texture of the piece.  Give it a try and some time as the pedal can be a bit tricky to use if you havent taken the time to become familiar with it.