exploring new movemnt - avoid fatigue

[Egghead]

This forum is fantastic. I am amazed at the generosity of you all, providing so much incredibly useful info. Thankyou!  
I have had NO life since discovering this forum a few days ago - the urge to read ever more is competing with the urge to practice! Where is this BCF then, Bernhard?
My question (arising first from trying to learn trills; have read both threads - thankyou): how do you prevent (i.e. detect early enough) muscle tiredness or really harmful motions, especially when searching for and exploring new ways of moving? Movements I try are by definition wrong: once I have found the right ones I can stop looking; also my understanding of "right" is that I can repeat it numerous times without fatigue.
In all the exploratory excitement I can easily go on for 10-20min a go or much longer. Once ended up with a sore hand the next day, so I now force myself to frequently alternate hands. How long should it take to find suitable movements for, say, a particular trill?

Yes, that is one of the biggest advantages of a teacher: it saves you a lot of time (assuming the teacher knows about this stuff – some don’t). And yes, you should be able to do all the investigation you need to do to master a passage in 10 – 15 minutes. Just make sure that the passage’s size is appropriate. Usually people try to tackle far too large passages.

(sorry about taking quote a bit out of context ).
Does this mean 10-15min exploration at most? Please help. Do I have to subdivide the trill, if I cannot find the right way of doing it within 15 min? If so, how?

Thanks in advance!
Egghead

[bernhard]

Your question is important. From the answer everything will eventually come.

Unfortunately a forum is not the best way to answer it. Even the best way – watching you play, showing you how I play, and then hands-on to suggest how to move, so that you can see the movement, feel the movement and hear the sound produced by the movement – may still not lead to the answer.

When you ask:

how do you prevent (i.e. detect early enough) muscle tiredness or really harmful motions, especially when searching for and exploring new ways of moving?

I cannot really answer, because you are the one feeling the tiredness, so only you can detect it.

However I will give you an example that may point you in the right direction and at the same time highlight the difficulties of discussing this through a verbal description.

Consider the following sequence of notes: (Consider the f major scale: F – G -  A – Bb – C – D – E – F1 right in the middle of the piano).

Bb – F – Bb – C – D – Bb – D – Eb – F1

What would be the best movement to play this passage at speed with perfect clarity on each note (with the right hand)?

Incidentally this is the first motif in Scarlatti sonata K70. In one of the editions I have, the following fingering is suggested:

Bb – F – Bb – C – D – Bb – D – Eb – F1
3 – 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 2 –3 - 4– 5

I found this fingering extremely awkward, in particular the highlighted fingers. Negotiating the Eb with a fourth finger was only possible at the expense of the sound: using this fingering resulted in a very irregular and uneven passage at speed, and often in wrong notes. Now you have two very distinct possibilities here:

1.      My technique was not good enough, and that was the reason why I could not negotiate the passage with that fingering. If that is the case, I must develop the technique by practising the passage with this fingering. Given the size of the passage and the fact that the really awkward part refers to only two notes, 5 – 10 minutes practice should be more than enough to either develop the technique and master the passage, or experience such an improvement in regards to the first trials that I would be reassured that indeed the fingering was appropriate and my technique was lacking. However if after 5 – 10 minutes I could not master the passage to my content or see any clear and definite improvement, then that fingering and the technique it implied was not for me (it may work fine for someone else though).

2.      The fingering was inappropriate for my physicality, and I would have to find and alternative fingering together with the implied movements. In this particular case, this is the fingering I come up with after some experimentation:

Bb – F – Bb – C – D – Bb – D – Eb – F1
3 – 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 2 – 4 - 3 – 5

A tiny difference is it not? And yet almost immediately (in about 2 seconds) the passage came absolutely clean and without any effort whatsoever. I knew immediately that I was onto something good. However it still took 5 – 10 minutes to work out the peculiar movement of arm/forearm/hand/fingers that this fingering required.  There was a slant of the hand without which it would not work. There was a “walking” movement of the fingers without which the fingering likewise would not work.

I suggest at this point that you go to the piano and try this motif with both fingerings and decide if you can make sense of what I am saying. This is ridiculously easy to demonstrate and guide someone’s hand so that they experience what I am describing. Saying it in words however can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings.

How did I come up with such a fingering? There is the experience of many years investigating this sort of thing both in myself and on my students. There is the fact (which I happen to know) that during the Baroque passing the 3rd over the 4th was the rule rather than the exception. There is my philosophy that movement never comes from the fingers: the fingers are at the end of the movement. And I believe in changing what you are doing until you get the result you want.

Most importantly, fingering for fast passages like this one cannot be decided with slow playing. The first fingering will work fine as long as you play slowly. It will fall apart the moment you increase modestly the speed. Of course once you figure out the fingering/movement required at speed it will be all right – and beneficial – to practise it in slow motion.

So now for the question of time. It should not take more than 5 – 10 minutes to decide on any movement covering a passage of this small size. If after 5-10 minutes, the passage is not mastered or substantial improvement is not apparent, you must change your technique.

On the other hand, it may take several weeks of experimentation to find that perfect movement that will make the performance of the passage not only perfect, but easy. But these several weeks will not be devoted to a single fingering/technique/movement, but to a myriad of different options each taking 5 –10 minutes to be accepted or discarded.

In the beginning it will take forever and you will be discouraged with such an approach. But soon, as you get to know your body, its limitations and the techniques to which it respond well, the process accelerates. To the point where by just looking at a score you will know instantly how to best move to play it.

It is also important that you do your investigating with hands separate, since hand memory is acquired with hands together, and once an inappropriate technique (for you – for the passage) is ingrained in hand memory it will be there pretty much forever. So only start hands together practice after you have figured out the technique.

Now with these principles and ideas in mind, approach trills. Trills have different problems depending on the piece/style/period. It is really too long a subject. But I suspect that you are talking about long trills whose main problem is the stamina to get them going. There were several threads on these with plenty of ideas for you to experiment with. I will just remind you of this: The muscles used in piano playing are small and numerous. Mostly they are located in the forearms (get an anatomy book and investigate). Muscle that is not used atrophies. Muscle takes 3 – 6 months to grow and will only grow if exercised regularly (every 36 hours). If you have not done long trills before, you will not have the necessary muscles to do them. You will need to grow them. Think “the Bride” (Kill Bill). She was in a coma. When she awoke, she knew what to do, but she did not have the muscles to do it. But at least she knew what to do. Now imagine if besides not having the muscles she did not have a clue on how to use them.

I don’t know if you know pianist Jack Gibbons (you may have heard of him). Some years ago, he had a horrific car accident and his left arm was pretty much destroyed. It was rebuilt (he has so much metal I his bones that he must take copies of his X-rays with him if he wants to board a plane). Yet he was able to rebuild all his technique from scratch in a bit more than a year, and now he is back concertizing. Why can’t anyone acquire all the technique in one year, like he did? Simple: because he knew exactly what to do. (And acquiring that knowledge took him many years).

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Egghead]

Where to start? Thanks for yet another brilliant reply, Bernhard!

RE: tiredness - I wondered if one can tell, e.g. by having some 1s-performance test (like a trill ), which shows whether muscles are tired.

Your example is beautiful! The 3rd over 4th finger is startling and nice. Your explanations seem perfectly clear.
Bb – F – Bb – C – D – Bb – D – (Eb – F1 )
3 – 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 – 2 –3 - (4– 5 )
Here the 4-2-3 is already awkward for me on the 3 (the D), though the 3-4-5 end seems logical. Second fingering is fun.

You evaluate each option in less than 10min but may have to try out many options until finding the right one, correct? It may take a long time to find the correct technique, then - both depressing and rather obvious now.

BTW: you are a genius, Bernhard. By empathising using an example you managed to get me to accept these facts (at least for the moment ).

I agree on slow-mo etc and on the need to play HS.

The trills are short: 4 (or 6) notes played with fingers 3-4, and fast for my standard: 4 per quaver. The piece is Allegro in A, by CPE Bach, Wq116/16, very lovely piece (Level 7 ABRSM, I believe). If I take allegro to mean M120 and my brain is working, this means 16Hz playing rate. Faster than I can tap with conscious control or think...  How important is it to have a clear mental picture of the sound-sequence?

So it is really about finding suitable hand-finger etc movement given a fixed fingering. I had found three threads on trills so far, and several on fast play, with useful info but nowhere the ultimate answer. Any more advice is very welcome.

On a general note: I would welcome more FAQ / cross-referencing to avoid having to annoy people like you by asking the same/similar questions again and again. I have downloaded a lot of stuff to sort it myself - there must be more efficient ways!

Sorry about this long post. Wanted to make sure I have understood you properly; maybe there are more points of general interest in here now.

Thanks, Egghead.

[Egghead]

risking a schizophrenic monologue here...
Are there no other people having this "exploration" problem? Can you always tell which technique is best suited to your needs?
Does anyone actually spend 10min to repeat 600 times a passage that takes 1second to play, and while using suboptimal technique never gets sore hands/ feel they may be doing more harm then good?

Your question is important. From the answer everything will eventually come.

Unfortunately a forum is not the best way to answer it. Even the best way ... – may still not lead to the answer.
However I will give you an example ...

point taken, original question aborted  

Incidentally this is the first motif in Scarlatti sonata K70.
...I suggest at this point that you go to the piano and try this motif with both fingerings ...

Some good has come of this: at least another 6 people (5 neighbours) now posses a thorough knowledge of the first motif of K70, backwards, forwards, as chords, and in different meters, rhythms and articulations...
How fast is it meant to be?

So now for the question of time. If after 5-10 minutes, the passage is not mastered or substantial improvement is not apparent, you must change your technique.

For your K70 example: there is substantial improvement with either fingering... within one minute!   Liked 2nd fingering better for its rarity value.
And after 10min my hand almost fell off

So I think trying 7 times non-stop to test (or maybe up to a minute - but not more without at least a brief break) is closer to the truth for me.

I can recommend the experiment though - your example is great fun!

Thanks for your advice, Bernhard, and I am still curious if anyone else has any views on this! Any physiologists out there?

Egghead

[xvimbi]

Any physiologists out there?

I am not a physiologists, but I found that getting to know the human playing apparatus is immensely important to developing good and efficient technique and avoiding injury. I personally think it should be mandatory for any musician to get a thorough understanding of the anatomy, physiology and injuries of the body parts that are involved in playing instruments or singing. I find it puzzling that many people spend more time downloading MP3's, trying to beat speed records for playing chromatic scales or attempt Rach3 after one year of playing than finding out what co-contraction is. No wonder, 86% of all pianists have injuries.

Likewise, many pianists have never taken a closer look at their piano. It can be argued that one can play the piano purely empirically, but it sure helps tremendously in producing the right sound if one knows how sound is created in the piano in the first place.

Back to your original post: there is a lot that can be said about all this. I would just like to say something about fatigue. Most people have enough muscle power to play the piano. It should not be a problem for you at all to play 4-6 note trills. If you can play an occasional video game, chop onions, give your head a little massage in the shower, you will have enough muscles to play even longer trills. The probem is coordination. One has to learn how to use those muscles. Fatigue is mostly a consequence of incorrect usage (we are not talking 8 hours of strenuous practice here, in which case you may indeed enhaust some muscles). Inform yourself about good technique (there is a number of books out there) and human anatomy, and - very importantly - find yourself a teacher who knows about these aspects. I know, we all want to play difficult pieces right away, but I am a firm believer in building up the basics first. This is much more efficient in the long run. Finally and very importantly: keep an open mind.

[bernhard]

I agree with everything xvimbi said above.

You evaluate each option in less than 10min but may have to try out many options until finding the right one, correct? It may take a long time to find the correct technique, then - both depressing and rather obvious now.

This is correct. However Musical patterns are not infinite. They are actually pretty limited. So it only takes time in the beginning. After a while, as your experience increases the time taken will compress. It is very much like reading. In the beginning it takes a long time just to remember which letter is which. However soon you can read any book and any word without giving it a second thought.

The trills are short: 4 (or 6) notes played with fingers 3-4, and fast for my standard: 4 per quaver. The piece is Allegro in A, by CPE Bach, Wq116/16, very lovely piece (Level 7 ABRSM, I believe). If I take allegro to mean M120 and my brain is working, this means 16Hz playing rate. Faster than I can tap with conscious control or think...  How important is it to have a clear mental picture of the sound-sequence?

Do you have a site for this score? If not, I will try to get it. Is there any reason to use fingers 3-4? It is (together with 4-5) the most difficult fingering for trills. Since the metronome had not been invented during CPE Bach lifetime, there is a range of tempos that will suit allegro.  Also conventions of that time were that their allegros were slower than ours and their largos/andantes faster than ours. Also make a distinction between “thinking” and “mental  work”. Mental work is essential. “Thinking” (making comparisons = intellectual work) is to be avoided at any cost, since it is too slow for most piano playing. Finally having a clear mental representation (in terms of sound – not in visual terms) of the sound sequence is the single most important factor in piano playing. Everything else pales in comparison. Get a good mental representation and the fingers will always comply.

So it is really about finding suitable hand-finger etc movement given a fixed fingering.

The fingering implies the movement. Chopin’s fingering is impossible if you try to play it with the piano technique of his contemporaries. However, with the appropriate movement it actually becomes easy. A score cannot tell you about movement. It just tells you point of departure and point of arrival. Fingering will point you in the right direction. When famous pianists edit famous pieces (like Arrau’s edition of the Beethoven sonatas) and finger them, they are telling you about the movements they use. As such, these are of great interest. But they may also not be appropriate for your physicality. So always consider printed fingering as a suggestion and have no qualms about modifying it.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Does anyone actually spend 10min to repeat 600 times a passage that takes 1second to play, and while using suboptimal technique never gets sore hands/ feel they may be doing more harm then good?

Time figures are just approximations. Time is not the important variable here. Results are all that matter. If it takes you 20 seconds to achieve results there is no point in doing it for three hours. Pianists tend to be compulsive about practice. It is not necessary. 20 minutes is really an overkill. If you are not getting results or experiencing marked improvement after 20 minutes you might as well stop, because there is something wrong and keep going for a futehr 3 or 4 hours is not going to be beneficial.

In any case you should not be working for ten minutes on a  1 second passage non-stop. Youshould alternate hands every 5 – 10 seconds, and after you master the passage, alternate hands every repeat.

Some good has come of this: at least another 6 people (5 neighbours) now posses a thorough knowledge of the first motif of K70, backwards, forwards, as chords, and in different meters, rhythms and articulations...  
How fast is it meant to be?

Pretty fast. Minimum speed around crochet=132. (Jeno Jando has recorded it for Naxos)

You can hear (harpsichord though) all 555 Scarlatti sonatas here:

https://www.midiworld.com/scarlatti.htm

Enjoy!  

 
For your K70 example: there is substantial improvement with either fingering... within one minute!    Liked 2nd fingering better for its rarity value.  
And after 10min my hand almost fell off  

So I think trying 7 times non-stop to test (or maybe up to a minute - but not more without at least a brief break) is closer to the truth for me.

Yes, you should have been alternating hands. And as I said, time is not carved in stone. Only the results count.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Egghead]

thankyou for your interesting and thought provoking reply, xvimbi!

I personally think it should be mandatory for any musician to get a thorough understanding of the anatomy, physiology and injuries of the body parts that are involved in playing instruments or singing. No wonder, 86% of all pianists have injuries.

Br - you have a case there! The 86% sounds frightening  - what population does it relate to (amateurs included?)?
I am easily persuaded of the need to learn - the innards of a piano are accessible, but who teaches the topic above competently? Are piano teachers nowadays tought to teach this? Do you know of a good book you recommend for this topic?

Excuse my ignorance - what is "co-contraction"? Guess: muscle A contracting when it is not needed to, in response to a neighbouring/somehow related muscle B which is being used and thus contracted?

Back to your original post: there is a lot that can be said about all this.

please go ahead!

I would just like to say something about fatigue. Most people have enough muscle power to play the piano. It should not be a problem for you at all to play 4-6 note trills. If you can play an occasional video game, chop onions, give your head a little massage in the shower, you will have enough muscles to play even longer trills.... The probem is coordination.

Watch out Bernhard - these geisha teams are seriously endangering your trilling ability  

sorry for the detour, xvimbi: I could not agree more. Not all trills give me trouble. My question was about searching for correct movements for things I cannot do yet: during the search there is by definition a fair amount of incorrect usage. Alternating hands frequently and without fail seems to be the received wisdom to avoid fatigue here.  

I know, we all want to play difficult pieces right away, but I am a firm believer in building up the basics first.

Do we? I beg to differ: I dont want to play v. difficult pieces right away. I am far too impatient for that: I want what I work on to vaguely resemble music as quickly as possible.

Thanks again, xvimbi and "Broken knuckles and tinnitus!"  
(is there a greeting of that sort amongst serious pianists?),
Egghead.

[xvimbi]

Br - you have a case there! The 86% sounds frightening  - what population does it relate to (amateurs included?)?

I think it has more to do with how much one plays, not if you do it for money.

I am easily persuaded of the need to learn - the innards of a piano are accessible, but who teaches the topic above competently? Are piano teachers nowadays tought to teach this? Do you know of a good book you recommend for this topic?

There are of course the "classics". Just to name a few:
Seymour Fink, "Mastering Piano Technique"
Seymore Bernstein, "Twenty Lessons in Keyboard Choreography"
Gyorgy Sandor, "On Piano Playing" (My favorite)
C.C. Chang's online book https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html

(that's my second favorite. Not so much, because it has a lot of useful material that may or may not be correct, but it makes me think and explore things)

And then there is Thomas Mark's "What every pianists needs to know about the body". This book is a true eye-opener. I found it immensely helpful. There is an accompanying video that I find useful, but not crucial. Finally, get a basic anatomy & physiology book from a medical student.

Then, there is the video series by the Taubman Institute, but I am too stingy to shell out $800.

Google around for "Alexander Technique", "Taubman Technique", "Andover Technique", and you'll find a ton of useful material.

Excuse my ignorance - what is "co-contraction"? Guess: muscle A contracting when it is not needed to, in response to a neighbouring/somehow related muscle B which is being used and thus contracted?

Example: Playing trills. You press down on a key, then you lift the finger up again. At this moment, if the muscles that press down are still engaged (i.e. not relaxed), you will have to overcome that resistance plus do what's required to lift the finger. Co-contraction means that antagonistic muscles are engaged at the same time.

This and much more is explained at www.pianomap.com. Check it out.

Thanks again, xvimbi and "Broken knuckles and tinnitus!"  
(is there a greeting of that sort amongst serious pianists?)

In fact, I don't think there is one, is there?

[Egghead]

I agree with everything xvimbi said above.

If you can play an occasional video game, chop onions, give your head a little massage in the shower, you will have enough muscles to play even longer trills....

Watch out Bernhard - these geisha teams are endangering your trilling ability  

This is correct. However Musical patterns are not infinite. They are actually pretty limited. So it only takes time in the beginning.

there is hope, then. I could ask "how long is the beginning". But I don't!

Do you have a site for this score? If not, I will try to get it. Is there any reason to use fingers 3-4? It is (together with 4-5) the most difficult fingering for trills.

No site in sight, sorry! And I dont have a scanner. If you find a www-link, please let me know - CPEB seems to be underrated IMHO (I have previously found his essay on the true art of playing keyboard instrumets - interesting).
I find the whole ornamentation business quite fun and fascinating, and for me, being somewhat rhythmically challenged (or shall we say "retarded"  ), this stuff seems excellent material.

Let me know if the piece somehow reminds you of Scarlatti.

I think the whole piece is very educational (as well as nice): the fingering 3-4 looks deliberate where it occurs. I can cope with the "simple" trills in that piece. Why not use this opportunity to "tackle" trills with difficult fingering?

Since the metronome had not been invented during CPE Bach lifetime, there is a range of tempos that will suit allegro.  Also conventions of that time were that their allegros were slower than ours and their largos/andantes faster than ours.

Yes, thanks, I have been a moron. I had previously read about this and even have a modern-day-recommendation for this piece, of less than 120. (I am curious what speed you come up with if you find the piece from an independent source.)

Also make a distinction between “thinking” and “mental  work”. Mental work is essential. “Thinking” (making comparisons = intellectual work) is to be avoided at any cost, since it is too slow for most piano playing. Finally having a clear mental representation (in terms of sound – not in visual terms) of the sound sequence is the single most important factor in piano playing. Everything else pales in comparison. Get a good mental representation and the fingers will always comply.

Hm. I think (!) I have come across this distinction (mental vs. thinking) before in one of your posts. You are making a comparison here, btw. I am not clear on this. :-/

Sticking to the things we DO want: Yes. I had originally been tempted to start a thread on just the question of mental representation, because I am surprised not to find this emphasised much in the various trill-threads.

Now my next question is: does that repr. have to be "real-time"? And how do you obtain it (I have no recording of the piece).

So always consider printed fingering as a suggestion and have no qualms about modifying it.

Yes, thankyou. This seems to me to be a basic point which I learnt rather late.

I need to get DVORAK and/or a decent editor...
Regards,
Egghead.

[Egghead]

Time is not the important variable here. Results are all that matter. If it takes you 20 seconds to achieve results there is no point in doing it for three hours.

Yes, completely agree. I am impatient, I am lazy and I dont work set times. I am only interested in fun. Results are fun. However, as a beginner you don't always know when you have got your result: you tend to go significantly passed the point of diminishing returns.

To assess the efficiency of a method, I do find it important to record how long something took. In fact record-keeping is a real challenge.

Question to everyone out there (is anyone reading this?):  
How do you optimise your own practice routine? Do you systematically log your work and analyse it regularly to identify what works best? Keep a record of what you do while practicing, how long you did what, what the outcome at the end of the session and on the next day was? How do you do it?

In any case you should not be working for ten minutes on a  1 second passage non-stop. Youshould alternate hands every 5 – 10 seconds, and after you master the passage, alternate hands every repeat.

In any case you should not be working for ten minutes on a  1 second passage non-stop. Youshould alternate hands every 5 – 10 seconds, and after you master the passage, alternate hands every repeat.

The obvious solution, thankyou Bernhard. I quoted you twice for emphasis because this is where I went wrong.
a) it is very tempting to just keep going on the thing you are concentrating on b) you have to find somehting suitable to do with your other hand - otherwise you waste 50% of your time playing random stuff. Always the v. basic things.

Pretty fast. Minimum speed around crochet=132. (Jeno Jando has recorded it for Naxos)
You can hear (harpsichord though) all 555 Scarlatti sonatas here:
https://www.midiworld.com/scarlatti.htm

In Hz? What are the note-values - I do not have the score- www-link? I could in fact not hear, because access was forbidden. (Need to register? Will go back there ASAP.) What is wrong with harpsichords? Not allowed here?

Enjoy!  

Thankyou very much for your understanding, patience and enthusiasm, Bernhard!
Egghead
p.s. A brief test today showed fingering two firmly ingrained now for K70 first motif.

[Egghead]

xvimbi, thankyou for your very informative reply! A lot of info to look at! Am doing my response to your post off-line.

[Egghead]

I think it has more to do with how much one plays, not if you do it for money.

ok - more bluntly: what is the source for this figure of 86% (injured pianists)? Can we have a quick show of hands (unintentional pun again): who has suffered injury themselves (ever/last year); what fraction of pianists do you estimate have suffered injury? Possible def. of injury: discomfort/pain or just reduced playing function for more than a day. Kitchen-accidents excluded.

There are of course the "classics". Just to name a few:
Seymour Fink, "Mastering Piano Technique"
Seymore Bernstein, "Twenty Lessons in Keyboard Choreography"
Gyorgy Sandor, "On Piano Playing" (My favorite)
C.C. Chang's online book https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html

Have heard of three of these, read only Chang, and was not aware they contained much physiology.
Can anyone here point me to a book-review thread/page/section, if one exists on this forum? Would you agree the book-list by xvimbi is a FAQ candidate?

(that's my second favorite. Not so much, because it has a lot of useful material that may or may not be correct, but it makes me think and explore things)

I have found Chang immensely useful. What material do you disagree with (other than his theories on the world at large)?
Is this book now almost a standard text-book?

Then, there is the video series by the Taubman Institute, but I am too stingy to shell out $800.

phew. You must be joking.

This and much more is explained at www.pianomap.com.

Quite informative page, seems one still needs the book, though.
Thankyou again, xvimbi!

Egghead

[xvimbi]

ok - more bluntly: what is the source for this figure of 86% (injured pianists)? Can we have a quick show of hands (unintentional pun again): who has suffered injury themselves (ever/last year); what fraction of pianists do you estimate have suffered injury? Possible def. of injury: discomfort/pain or just reduced playing function for more than a day.

This number shows up in several publications, most predominantly on some websites of teachers who are trying to attract students. Statistics are tricky. I have presented this number a few times, but you are the first person to actually ask where it comes from. I was wondering why nobody else did... This number obviously depends on the definition of "injury". It seems everybody on this forum has experienced injuries, so nobody really disputes this number. Personally, I would say, the percentage of injured pianists is close to 100. But what constitutes an injury? The standard definition is something like, "injury is any physical damage to the body caused by violence or accident or fracture etc". Injuries luckily are accompanied by pain and discomfort. Most injuries are only temporary, but if ignored can become permanent.

Kitchen-accidents excluded.

Unfortunately, that's not that easy. Injury-free piano playing requires correct usage of the body in general. This means correct usage throughout all activities. Many injuries in pianists are caused or aggravated by completely different activities (e.g. typing, sitting wrong, standing wrong) or vice versa. In order to play the piano correctly, most people (I would estimate close to 100%) will have to rigorously overhaul their entire life and evaluate and correct their posture in everything.

Have heard of three of these, read only Chang, and was not aware they contained much physiology.
Can anyone here point me to a book-review thread/page/section, if one exists on this forum? Would you agree the book-list by xvimbi is a FAQ candidate?

There are a lot more books that can be considered "standard". It would be great to have a FAQ for that, as it comes up repeatedly.

I have found Chang immensely useful. What material do you disagree with (other than his theories on the world at large)?

Well, that's about it.

Is this book now almost a standard text-book?

I would say so.

[Egghead]

This number shows up in several publications, most predominantly on some websites of teachers who are trying to attract students. Statistics are tricky. I have presented this number a few times, but you are the first person to actually ask where it comes from. I was wondering why nobody else did...

Any non-web-publications you know of? I completely agree with you that statistics are "tricky"; for me 86% is a meaningless on its own.

Hm, Bernhard "agreed" with it - maybe he just did not bother. Without going into the motivation and attitude behind quoting a random number to "attract students", I suspect that the teachers involved understand statistics about as well as psychologists do:  

In fact one of the allures of the profession is that it has the aura of science but it does not require...

This number obviously depends on the definition of "injury". It seems everybody on this forum has experienced injuries, so nobody really disputes this number. Personally, I would say, the percentage of injured pianists is close to 100.

THIS is frightening - what gives you this impression?

Would someone uninjured please speak up and make their case?  

But what constitutes an injury? The standard definition is something like, "injury is any physical damage to the body caused by violence or accident or fracture etc".

I am not sure this is a useful term here then. Physical damage, yes, but caused by violence (kulahola!)? Clearly we both mean incorrect usage as cause.

Unfortunately, that's not that easy. Injury-free piano playing requires correct usage of the body in general. This means correct usage throughout all activities. Many injuries in pianists are caused or aggravated by completely different activities (e.g. typing, sitting wrong, standing wrong) or vice versa. In order to play the piano correctly, most people (I would estimate close to 100%) will have to rigorously overhaul their entire life and evaluate and correct their posture in everything.

The web-page you gave (https://www.pianomap.com/) seems to emphasise the piano-playing itself. Are you saying that correct usage while playing the piano requires the kind of awareness etc that will result (as a by-product) in correct usage of the body in general? Or are you making the stronger statement that if you "abuse" your body in any context, you also cannot possibly play the piano without injury?

There are a lot more books that can be considered "standard". It would be great to have a FAQ for that, as it comes up repeatedly.

Good - I may look into this. Where do you think this FAQ should be put?

I strongly welcome input/comments from anyone on this. So much info in this forum is duplicated and still difficult to find.

Egghead.

[xvimbi]

The web-page you gave (https://www.pianomap.com/) seems to emphasise the piano-playing itself. Are you saying that correct usage while playing the piano requires the kind of awareness etc that will result (as a by-product) in correct usage of the body in general? Or are you making the stronger statement that if you "abuse" your body in any context, you also cannot possibly play the piano without injury?

Well, proper piano technique relies on proper use of the body, which in itself relies on only a few basic principles, such as proper balance, no excessive force, and no awkward positions (i.e. don't move around joints in ways the joint is not made for). These principles apply to every joint in the body and every type of movement. One cannot just focus on correct piano technique and, at the same time, slouch for hours in front of the TV. If you don't know how to stand correctly, you can't possibly sit correctly. It is all connected.

I would not want to go so far to say that injury is inevitable if the body is not used correctly. Minor infractions may not "hurt" in the end, and obviously, some people can take a lot of beating. However, one should not be surprised if something shows up.

And yes, I would also like to know what kind of problems people on this forum have had over the years. In principle, it should be possible to play the piano vigorously without any problems whatsoever, provided the human playing apparatus is used correctly. Therefore, I would count any single day that is lost due to a problem as an injury. I would even consider sore muscles after playing the piano as an injury as that should never happen, not even in beginners. That is a very strict definition, I know, but as I said above, in principle it should be possible, and I think every pianists should try to achieve that.

[Egghead]

Well, proper piano technique relies ... on only a few basic principles, such as proper balance, no excessive force, and no awkward positions... One cannot just focus on correct piano technique and, at the same time, slouch for hours in front of the TV.

What, no more TV slouching?  :-/ This is serious - I think I know what you mean.
Then in a VERY circumvent way, piano playing may be very healthy: people who take it seriously tend to injure themselves, then learn about proper body usage and end up overall healthier (and taller!) than their contemporaries.
Not playing the piano can seriously damage your health. Hm, I like that.

And yes, I would also like to know what kind of problems people on this forum have had over the years. In principle, it should be possible to play the piano vigorously without any problems whatsoever, provided the human playing apparatus is used correctly.

Everyone seems to be keeping their heads down (bad for your posture?). I asked for any UNINJURED people to speak up - no response. You asked for INJURED people to speak up. No response. Conclusion:
people are either lazy, uninterested or in hospital/unable to type.

We know you are out there (I KNOW I did not read my own thread more than 100 times ). So, come on people, insult us, make fun of us, tell us its far too boring, has been discussed 500 times...  And when you are fed up of doing that, send in a serious post. It could be on exploring movement, rather than fatigue...

Egghead

[westman]

One area that does not seem to have been discussed in terms of what fingering to use is what is being played at the time. If you are practicing exercises from Czerny's School of Velocity then using the fingering as given is important, since the goal is to strengthen the fingers and achieve a heightened level of dexterity. However playing a particular composition by Chopin for example may require a modification, as long as you are able to "flow" in and out of the modified passage smoothly and without awkwardness.

[Egghead]

One area that does not seem to have been discussed in terms of what fingering to use is what is being played at the time. If you are practicing exercises from Czerny's School of Velocity then using the fingering as given is important, since the goal is to strengthen the fingers and achieve a heightened level of dexterity. However playing a particular composition by Chopin for example may require a modification, as long as you are able to "flow" in and out of the modified passage smoothly and without awkwardness.

Hi westman: yes, that is a good point, thankyou! Bernhard had briefly enquired about fingering. Up to now I am taking the stand that the fingering i have decided upon is musically the most appropriate (like your Chopin example) and as such is ALSO a good opportunity to improve technique (your Czerny /dexterity point). For the purpose of this thread, the Czerny-aspect is quite important.

If you REALLY want to know, I can send you a file of the piece - maybe you come up with fingerings that are infinitely superior! (whether it works for me then remains to be seen...)

Egghead

[bernhard]

I find the whole ornamentation business quite fun and fascinating, and for me, being somewhat rhythmically challenged (or shall we say "retarded"  ), this stuff seems excellent material.

I think the whole piece is very educational (as well as nice): the fingering 3-4 looks deliberate where it occurs. I can cope with the "simple" trills in that piece. Why not use this opportunity to "tackle" trills with difficult fingering?

.

Consider the very first mordent (bar 3 – if you ignore the anacrusis bar) B-A-B. I would play this mordent with the fingering 2-1-3. Why? There are several reasons:

1.      The finger 2 falls on the B naturally , since I played the previous A with finger 1.

2.      So does the finger 1 falls naturally on the A after I played B with the 2nd.

3.      Both fingers 1 and 2 (and later 3) are strong, independent fingers that allow a much finer and secure control than, say, 3-4.

4.      But why 3 on the second B? would it not be better to use 2 again? Well, here is why the 3rd finger is such a superior choice:

a.      The next note is a D, and that is best played with the 5th finger so that the following F# gets to be played with the 2nd finger. If instead you use the 2nd finger on the 2nd B, it is almost sure that you will play the following D with the 4th finger, the F# with the  thumb and that is going to generate a movement that will take the flow of the passage. You could of course still play the B with the 2nd finger and train yourself to play the D with the 5th finger nevertheless. But if you did that, you would be fighting against nature, always a bad idea.

b.      By switching from the 2nd to the 3rd finger on the consecutive Bs. You refresh the muscles by using a different set. As a consequence you have far more control and far more power. The mordent will be crisp and feel physically good. You will actually look forward to it! Use 2-1-2 and you will feel the strain. That point in the music will be feared rather than welcome.

c.      And really the most important reason. If you use 2-1-2, you will have either to move the fingers from the knuckle joint, or rotate your forearm so that the forearm movement moves the fingers. However if you use 2-1-3 the movement is of a completely different nature. What is involved is now a lateral shift of the hand, which is actually executed at the shoulder level – the strongest muscle in your arm. This lateral displacement of the hand also automatically positions all fingers in their best configuration to press the next keys. This is such a superior movement that once you experience it, you will be filled with exhilaration. You will look forward for opportunities to use it. And I urge you to investigate every passage in every piece where you can use this kind of movement because of its efficiency and power. So, do not use the opportunity this piece affords you to practise inefficient movements that you will likely never need to use (like trilling with 4-5) instead, use this opportunity to observe and investigate these large scale movements that demand precise co-ordination from the shoulder down to the fingers, and investigate the possibility of using the principle behind it – if not the actual movement – as often as possible.

This should give you a general idea of how to go about fingering in general and fingering ornaments in particular. If necessary, change the whole fingering of a passage to allow for the best fingering in the most difficult passages. Easy passages you will be able to negotiate with inferior fingering, so start fingering the hard bits and move backwards from there.

I hope this helps,

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Hm. I think (!) I have come across this distinction (mental vs. thinking) before in one of your posts. You are making a comparison here, btw. I am not clear on this. :-/

Sticking to the things we DO want: Yes. I had originally been tempted to start a thread on just the question of mental representation, because I am surprised not to find this emphasised much in the various trill-threads.

Now my next question is: does that repr. have to be "real-time"? And how do you obtain it (I have no recording of the piece).

Yes, there is a profound difference between intellectual activity (= thinking = making comparisons) and mental activity (far more comprehensive). In fact I distinguish between 3 “minds” (there are actually 7, but 3 are enough for starters):

Movement (which deals with sense perception and co-ordination and learns by imitation);

Intellectual (which deals with er… intellectual stuff and learns by making comparisons);

and emotional (which is basically love/hate, and does not really learn anything). If you want more details, have a look here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1085767324

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1087468817

And yes, I am making comparisons and appealing (and using) to your intellectual centre because in a forum that is all I can do. Ideally this should be taught with a hands on approach, focusing on the movement mind, and learning mostly by imitation. Intellectual understanding in piano playing is pretty much useless, except as a gate to other understandings. In this case the only available gate.

Finally, yes, mental representation has to be in real time to be effective. There are two very good ways to go about it. One is to use a notation software and copy your piece, and then play back the midi of the piece, so that you can follow the score as it plays back to you (if you cannot get a CD).

The other way is to use a metronome. I am not too keen on using metronomes extensively – although they have their place and time – and this is one of the greatest uses you can put to your metronome. Just open the score and play the piece in your mind with the metronome on. The metronome will make sure you are in real time.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

so start fingering the hard bits and move backwards from there.

Oh dear!

I can get banned for saying things like that!

[jeff]

hahahah

you dirty dirty man, you

[Egghead]

This forum is so dangerous: I nearly fell off my chair just now, I was laughing so much. Great quote.
Egghead

[Egghead]

Update Scarlatti sound-files:

You can hear (harpsichord though) all 555 Scarlatti sonatas here:
https://www.midiworld.com/scarlatti.htm

This appears to be no longer the case.   The actual source, Sankey's www-page, does work.

You can download a 1.4MB zipped file with all 555 recordings from

https://www.sankey.ws/scarlattirec.html

His page https://www.sankey.ws/harpsichord.html in fact leads to these recordings AND to the scores: right there as ps files, or at
https://icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer/Scarlatti.html
if you prefer pdf.

Enjoy!

Egghead

[Egghead]

Update CPE Bach Allegro in A, Wq. 116/16
Current (2003/2004) exam piece ABRSM grade 7. I play it for "pleasure" and amusement value on this forum only . All witty and not-so-witty comments welcome.

If a single person gets more out of this thread than out of the most popular   thread on this forum it was worth me reporting.  

Bernhard, thankyou for your helpful and clear answer. I had some success with your trill suggestions (they are fun ) and went through the whole piece trying to work out fingerings. It was going well at first... To cut a long story short, however,

a) I still find it hard to decide (in finite time) whether a fingering is optimal/good/ or at least better than the previous one I used. The example you analyse happens to be a mordent I was happy with, playing 3-2-3. Only addressing the "tricky" ones still takes forever, because slightest fatigue interferes with the result of the evaluation. Have we come full circle?  

b) I meanwhile had the whole piece falling apart musically (memory is fine but it sounds really awful). Was this maybe a consequence of focussing on the trills too much for too long at the expense of, er, everything else?  

I have a teacher, who is trying to be helpful (and in general is). However,
a) how can I get him interested in trills (and then work out a way for me to learn them properly)?
b) how do I get something to imitate, since he says he cannot play the piece w/o practicing it, and he will not practice even part of it?  
c) maybe I am a moron?
d) is his tempo instruction of at least M120 musically justified?
e) how do I get over the dilemma between practicing HT for the lesson and HS practice for improvement (exploring and learning new fingerings for trills, "testing" phrasing, rhythm etc)? :-/

Life would be easier knowing what the piece is meant to sound like. I could not find a recording.

silver lining... :
As I learnt last night by browsing this forum extensively, ABRSM offers CDs with recordings of all exam pieces (guess who posted this hint). Lesson learnt: when you are completely stuck, read the entire PF, you never know what you'll find.  

So now I have a recording (false: now I have PAID for a recording...  ). There is hope yet.

Advice/ opinions etc welcome,

Egghead

[bernhard]

a)      I still find it hard to decide (in finite time) whether a fingering is optimal/good/ or at least better than the previous one I used. The example you analyse happens to be a mordent I was happy with, playing 3-2-3. Only addressing the "tricky" ones still takes forever, because slightest fatigue interferes with the result of the evaluation. Have we come full circle?    

If you truly find it difficult to decide, then both fingerings are acceptable. Some fatigue is expected especially if it a movement new to you. As muscles develop there should no fatigue (3 – 6 months). During this period use a 36 hour period between working on the same muscles.

b) I meanwhile had the whole piece falling apart musically (memory is fine but it sounds really awful). Was this maybe a consequence of focussing on the trills too much for too long at the expense of, er, everything else?    

Working on ornaments is like taking an engine apart. You clean and calibrate the piece that is giving problems, and once it is shine and working properly, you must put it back into the engine and make sure it is working once it is in the engine. Sometimes this takes more time than everything else. The secret is overlapping. Do the ornament. Then add the note before and the note after. Then 2 notes before and 2 notes after. And so on and so forth until you have the ornament perfectly and smoothly inserted in the passage.

I have a teacher, who is trying to be helpful (and in general is). However,  
a) how can I get him interested in trills (and then work out a way for me to learn them properly)?

I’m surprised he is not interested in this incredibly fascinating subject...  Meanwhile, why wait for him? Have a look here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1086325289;start=0

b) how do I get something to imitate, since he says he cannot play the piece w/o practicing it, and he will not practice even part of it?    

Er… Why not? You have two choices: find a teacher who knows this piece, or who is willing to learn it. Or stick to the pieces your teacher knows/wants to play.

c) maybe I am a moron?  

It is always wise to cover all possibilities.

d) is his tempo instruction of at least M120 musically justified?  

Whose tempo instruction? CPEB did not have  a metronome, so it is not his. Has the proponent of the tempo justified it? If he has, then it is justified. Of course you may disagree with the justification. At the end of the day it is all informed opinion, since we cannot ask CPEB. But notice that I qualified it: informedopinion.

e) how do I get over the dilemma between practicing HT for the lesson and HS practice for improvement (exploring and learning new fingerings for trills, "testing" phrasing, rhythm etc)?  

There is no dilemma. Only join hands after HS is truly mastered. In fact, delay HT as much as possible, since HT creates hand memory and you want to have all co-ordinates in place so that you never practise the wrong thing. During the lesson, show HS. There is plenty to be taught at this level. In fact it is at this level that teaching is the most important. Once you have HT there is preciously little to be done. If you think of building a house out of reinforced concrete, HT is like pouring the concrete. Once it is done it is done. You want to delay this until you have everything figured out: how much steel reinforcement, how strong the forms have to be, what is the house design, etc.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.