Chopin's Winter Wind etude, op 25 no 11

[ivoryplayer4him]

You know something?  I've been reading, and i've even posted something about this particular piece...but something just occured to me.  People tell me this piece is hard and beautiful, All things that i could say by hearing it and seeing the music, but has anyone ACTUALLY played it with success?  Or is there somone currently working on it???  Please let me know and discuss it with me please.  I'm really really interested in that piece but i am not at the level to play it yet.  YET!!!

[Tash]

i haven't cos there's no way in hell i'd be able to. but i heard like 50 people, actually it was probably more like 5 who played it in the sydney international piano competition really well.

[larse]

Hmmm.. I don't really think it should be THAT hard. Though, I don't know how skillful you are, but it doesn't seem unconquarable. But I would think it demands a long long time of motorique training, finger practice, repetition...boring stuff. I played Op 10 No 5 last year..the black keys thingy, and it sounded impossible at first, but once you get the motorique running, it's not at all impossible. It's actually quite bearable.

[ted]

I play that one quite regularly and always enjoy it. I feel suppleness and musicality to be more important than brute force here, but each to his own way. The video of Richter playing it is worth slowing down and looking at even if you don't like his ideas.

I think the fingering and positions are very dependent on the individual. Some use a lot of wrist rotation, others use finger strokes and jumps - all seem to produce valid but different musical results. I find some of the chord changes in it very good and if I go too quickly I lose some of their effect. When I first played it I tended to concentrate too much on the right hand at the expense of the melodies in the left, but I've more or less fixed this now.

I also find sharing the work among the third, fourth and fifth fingers of the right hand helps. In the little stretchy bit towards the end I find playing the octave gaps with 1,3 more reliable than 1,4.

There are lots of other things I've worked out with it over time, but they're probably peculiar to my hand and perhaps of no use to anybody else.

[ivoryplayer4him]

I play that one quite regularly and always enjoy it. I feel suppleness and musicality to be more important than brute force here, but each to his own way. The video of Richter playing it is worth slowing down and looking at even if you don't like his ideas.

I think the fingering and positions are very dependent on the individual. Some use a lot of wrist rotation, others use finger strokes and jumps - all seem to produce valid but different musical results. I find some of the chord changes in it very good and if I go too quickly I lose some of their effect. When I first played it I tended to concentrate too much on the right hand at the expense of the melodies in the left, but I've more or less fixed this now.

I also find sharing the work among the third, fourth and fifth fingers of the right hand helps. In the little stretchy bit towards the end I find playing the octave gaps with 1,3 more reliable than 1,4.

There are lots of other things I've worked out with it over time, but they're probably peculiar to my hand and perhaps of no use to anybody else.

Thank you very much for this wonderful reply.  This is what i was looking for.  I abosolutly love this piece and so i want to talk about it lol.  THANK YOU

[ted]

I am pleased to be of assistance if I can. There are lots of conflicting ideas about this piece, that's for sure. One experienced pianist told me that all the inner notes of the right hand matter very little compared to the outer ones. While this notion might make it easier to play I soon found I didn't like the sound with indistinct inner notes. I prefer to play it with all notes clearly struck with the fingers and find that too much wrist rotation and passing under just get in the way; but I may well be in the minority doing this.

Having found out the hard way, I think this is one piece you shouldn't try to play too fast too soon. The effects of doing so were worse than with other pieces. Ideally I think I should have aimed to play it right through at a slower but musical pace - fast enough to be musical but slow enough to preserve relaxation. Having not been trained properly I just went flat out and lost my control, necessitating frequent slow revisions for weeks before it finally came right.

[Medtner]

Coincidentally, I just spent all of July learning the Winter Wind, as I'm slowly building up my repertoire of the etudes; this was my 5th.

I had a lot of fun with this piece. It has a very straight-forward tempo and the left hand is quite easy all throughout. It's important to know the cues in the right hand where the left hand comes in, but once you get the feel, the pulse is very strong and it's very easily right there under your fingers.

As the previous poster wrote, it's important to keep it at a slow tempo. After having never played it fast, you can do so without any problems if you can play everything slowly.

ANALYSIS:
The right hand is actually a simple pattern: chromatic set in a certain key, and you can transpose and practice this in all the 24 keys if you're patient (I only tried in a select few), but the piece already provides a few transpositions. Like the previous poster, the chromaticity, and therefore all the notes, are important. I tend to give more weight to the upper notes as they descend. There are no "inner" and "outer" voices, there is a chromatic run with an a-minor accompaniment, or e-minor, or G7, and so on, as it changes throughout the etude.

I feel there are two ways to play this descending chromatic run. And I stumbled across the way I feel is best. You can kind of blur the run (I don't mean with pedal) but where all the notes have equal weighting, but after having learned and practiced it, I felt that that "pulse" was naturally appearing in sections and so I applied it all throughout. There should be this descending chromatic "pulse" that counteracts with the bass "pulse".

LEARNING IT:
To anybody who wants to learn this piece: go very slowly and get all the notes correct. Play the complete piece memorized at slow speed (like 40-60 per quarter note). Make sure you have the right hand runs memorized and never learn the piece hands apart. Put them together from the beginning, or else you'll have trouble inserting the left hand (it should be the other way around, the right hand being overlayed/inserted on the left, but that's an unlikely way to practice). Practice the whole piece in groups of four 16th notes with pauses between, then start two notes in and do the same thing, then do it in groups of 3 and alternate starting points again. This is extremely helpful to master all the changing positions fluidly.

It may not be readily apparent but there are quite a lot of 2-on-3 rhythms in this etude, for example the 16th note in the left hand melody actually comes between the last two notes of the 6 group of 16th notes in the right hand. I'm not sure, but I think most people practice the left hand 16th together with the right hand 16th (2nd to last in the group). At a slow speed it's easy enough to accomplish, but at high speed who can tell?

At first I had the first page learned very well, but the second page gave me a lot of trouble, especially in memorizing, all the way until I was done learning the whole piece. I worked the section slowly. Don't get bogged down on one section, do the other pages in block pieces and come back and work on it slowly. And don't give up because of such an obstacle. In fact, it's a good idea to learn each block independently, approx. one page per block (I used the Henle edition).

OBSTACLES:
The most difficult sections I found besides what I mention above were the measures leading up to the left hand runs (37-39) on page 4, and the ending with hands in parallel motion (87) and subsequent measures. I also spent a lot of time on page 5 (with two pick-up measures on the page before)--work through this page carefully as it's pretty tricky.

Contrary to what I believed when I first started working on it, the contrary motion of both hands coming inwards in measures 61-64 is not that difficult. I used more my sense of touch and can play it much more accurately without looking at my hands until the final chords. As long as my 5th fingers always hit each new hand position correctly, it's no problem. Remember, practice 4 notes at a time--through the whole piece!

It's also easy to get blurry at the bottom of the keyboard when the left hand plays the runs in measures 42 and 44, so make sure you keep those notes correct and very clear with as little pedal as possible.

MY INTERPRETATION:
I'm not a purist (unlike Hamelin) and I have my own interpretation of this piece. A lot of people will not agree with me, but I believe I have heard at least one recording played like this on the radio and I really enjoyed it. I have also studied Godowsky's versions of the etudes (I just learned his left hand version of the Op25-12 Ocean Etude this month) and I feel I should be able to communicate my unique approach to the piece. But I don't think I'll attempt Godowsky's version of this etude--that's a little too extreme--even M.A. Hamelin himself wrote: "Incidentally, the metronome marking is completely unreasonable--something that most of the other Studies do not suffer from--and is much better suited to the model than to the transcription." (Insert from CDA67412: Godowsky, The Complete Studies on Chopin's Etudes) In other words, the Godowsky version "presents mountainous challenges" (Hamelin) and the Allegro con brio is really only suitable for the original that Chopin wrote.

So, in measure 68 in the last set of the left hand I drop down a further octave, then come in at 69 in the left hand with an additional octava-bassa A, the lowest note on the piano (I don't think Chopin had it at his disposal when he wrote the piece, but if so he may have written one in). The only other change I made was playing the bass notes marked marcatissimo in measure 92 at the end of the piece as octaves with an additional octava bassa for each note, ending the run again with the lowest A. I feel it is a nice effect.

FINALLY:
One last word: remember to keep everything smooth. I think one of the major points of this Study/Etude (among so many others) is thumb-under surpassing 4th and 5th fingers (but what I mean to say is sottopassing)--don't jump, keep these legato. Also, jumping means you're doing too much movement with your hands and you'll lose your tempo at high speed. Hamelin's approach to tough music like this is AS LITTLE MOVEMENT AS POSSIBLE to play everything, and I don't think anybody can complain about his execution. So, jumps of any kind is out of the question. Practice those 5-1 stretches.

Those of you interested in the Winter Wind Etude may also be interested in Medtner's "Night Wind" Sonata (similar by name), referred to as "very darkly and somberly colored, charged from first to last with the intense, infinite, and inhuman sadness of vast, cold, lonely expanses--a true elegiac nature poem" (Norman Gentieu, La Musique, c'est tout!, Philadelphia, 1990).

-Kolya

[ivoryplayer4him]

Coincidentally, I just spent all of July learning the Winter Wind, as I'm slowly building up my repertoire of the etudes; this was my 5th.

I had a lot of fun with this piece. It has a very straight-forward tempo and the left hand is quite easy all throughout. It's important to know the cues in the right hand where the left hand comes in, but once you get the feel, the pulse is very strong and it's very easily right there under your fingers.

As the previous poster wrote, it's important to keep it at a slow tempo. After having never played it fast, you can do so without any problems if you can play everything slowly.

ANALYSIS:
The right hand is actually a simple pattern: chromatic set in a certain key, and you can transpose and practice this in all the 24 keys if you're patient (I only tried in a select few), but the piece already provides a few transpositions. Like the previous poster, the chromaticity, and therefore all the notes, are important. I tend to give more weight to the upper notes as they descend. There are no "inner" and "outer" voices, there is a chromatic run with an a-minor accompaniment, or e-minor, or G7, and so on, as it changes throughout the etude.

I feel there are two ways to play this descending chromatic run. And I stumbled across the way I feel is best. You can kind of blur the run (I don't mean with pedal) but where all the notes have equal weighting, but after having learned and practiced it, I felt that that "pulse" was naturally appearing in sections and so I applied it all throughout. There should be this descending chromatic "pulse" that counteracts with the bass "pulse".

LEARNING IT:
To anybody who wants to learn this piece: go very slowly and get all the notes correct. Play the complete piece memorized at slow speed (like 40-60 per quarter note). Make sure you have the right hand runs memorized and never learn the piece hands apart. Put them together from the beginning, or else you'll have trouble inserting the left hand (it should be the other way around, the right hand being overlayed/inserted on the left, but that's an unlikely way to practice). Practice the whole piece in groups of four 16th notes with pauses between, then start two notes in and do the same thing, then do it in groups of 3 and alternate starting points again. This is extremely helpful to master all the changing positions fluidly.

It may not be readily apparent but there are quite a lot of 2-on-3 rhythms in this etude, for example the 16th note in the left hand melody actually comes between the last two notes of the 6 group of 16th notes in the right hand. I'm not sure, but I think most people practice the left hand 16th together with the right hand 16th (2nd to last in the group). At a slow speed it's easy enough to accomplish, but at high speed who can tell?

At first I had the first page learned very well, but the second page gave me a lot of trouble, especially in memorizing, all the way until I was done learning the whole piece. I worked the section slowly. Don't get bogged down on one section, do the other pages in block pieces and come back and work on it slowly. And don't give up because of such an obstacle. In fact, it's a good idea to learn each block independently, approx. one page per block (I used the Henle edition).

OBSTACLES:
The most difficult sections I found besides what I mention above were the measures leading up to the left hand runs (37-39) on page 4, and the ending with hands in parallel motion (87) and subsequent measures. I also spent a lot of time on page 5 (with two pick-up measures on the page before)--work through this page carefully as it's pretty tricky.

Contrary to what I believed when I first started working on it, the contrary motion of both hands coming inwards in measures 61-64 is not that difficult. I used more my sense of touch and can play it much more accurately without looking at my hands until the final chords. As long as my 5th fingers always hit each new hand position correctly, it's no problem. Remember, practice 4 notes at a time--through the whole piece!

It's also easy to get blurry at the bottom of the keyboard when the left hand plays the runs in measures 42 and 44, so make sure you keep those notes correct and very clear with as little pedal as possible.

MY INTERPRETATION:
I'm not a purist (unlike Hamelin) and I have my own interpretation of this piece. A lot of people will not agree with me, but I believe I have heard at least one recording played like this on the radio and I really enjoyed it. I have also studied Godowsky's versions of the etudes (I just learned his left hand version of the Op25-12 Ocean Etude this month) and I feel I should be able to communicate my unique approach to the piece. But I don't think I'll attempt Godowsky's version of this etude--that's a little too extreme--even M.A. Hamelin himself wrote: "Incidentally, the metronome marking is completely unreasonable--something that most of the other Studies do not suffer from--and is much better suited to the model than to the transcription." (Insert from CDA67412: Godowsky, The Complete Studies on Chopin's Etudes) In other words, the Godowsky version "presents mountainous challenges" (Hamelin) and the Allegro con brio is really only suitable for the original that Chopin wrote.

So, in measure 68 in the last set of the left hand I drop down a further octave, then come in at 69 in the left hand with an additional octava-bassa A, the lowest note on the piano (I don't think Chopin had it at his disposal when he wrote the piece, but if so he may have written one in). The only other change I made was playing the bass notes marked marcatissimo in measure 92 at the end of the piece as octaves with an additional octava bassa for each note, ending the run again with the lowest A. I feel it is a nice effect.

FINALLY:
One last word: remember to keep everything smooth. I think one of the major points of this Study/Etude (among so many others) is thumb-under surpassing 4th and 5th fingers (but what I mean to say is sottopassing)--don't jump, keep these legato. Also, jumping means you're doing too much movement with your hands and you'll lose your tempo at high speed. Hamelin's approach to tough music like this is AS LITTLE MOVEMENT AS POSSIBLE to play everything, and I don't think anybody can complain about his execution. So, jumps of any kind is out of the question. Practice those 5-1 stretches.

Those of you interested in the Winter Wind Etude may also be interested in Medtner's "Night Wind" Sonata (similar by name), referred to as "very darkly and somberly colored, charged from first to last with the intense, infinite, and inhuman sadness of vast, cold, lonely expanses--a true elegiac nature poem" (Norman Gentieu, La Musique, c'est tout!, Philadelphia, 1990).

-Kolya

OMGOSH lol.  Thank you sooo much!!  I think you covered just about any question i could possibly have about this piece!!!  TYhank you thank you thank you.....Now for those of you who may read this...my new question is....What is your emotional attraction to this piece....Do you feel that you are hearing the "Winter Wind".  

[Greentea028]

I played that piece, and im currently still practicing it. Its really notey but learning it shouldnt take a long time.

The actual process of learning the piece isn't much, but actually getting the piece fast and performance worthy takes a while. for me at least. I rushed through this piece in 3 months and performed it.

I learned from that performance that it is one of those pieces that you should wait a little before you perform it in front of alot of people. Even if you are able to practice this piece perfectly at home, there's a different aura of playing the winter wind (or any chopin etude for that matter) that makes it nerve wrecking. You tend to fumble the notes even if you know it perfectly when practicing.

I'd suggest to take the piece very very slow, and never play it fast. i learned it the hard way, i almost injured myself practicing the piece at too fast of tempos. Make sure your fingering is perfect, or near perfect, because it plays a major major role in speed and accuracy My friends tell me that it takes about a year to make a piece like this presentable, but im sure if you are dedicated enough, it wont take that long.

lol, i think i posted a little too late on this one.

steven

[musicsdarkangel]

You know something?  I've been reading, and i've even posted something about this particular piece...but something just occured to me.  People tell me this piece is hard and beautiful, All things that i could say by hearing it and seeing the music, but has anyone ACTUALLY played it with success?  Or is there somone currently working on it???  Please let me know and discuss it with me please.  I'm really really interested in that piece but i am not at the level to play it yet.  YET!!!

I have played the Winterwind, and it is a beast.  However, with proper practice and efficiency of motion, you can do it.

Just make sure that you are never crossing your thumb underneath your hand, but instead, moving your hand laterally to play the linear patterns.

A great way to practice the piece is in groups of 2 -   For instance, the first quick run, play each 2 notes as a chord, and then play the next 2 as a chord, etc.  Play them staccato and as quickly as you can.  After this is done, play the run as it is written and vuala - cake.

The chairman of Indiana Evelyn Brunkart told me this and it helped very much.  I will be performing the Winterwind again this summer with some other etudes.  If you ever need advice with it, please ask.

[musicsdarkangel]

By the way, I love this piece just because it is one of the most dramatic of Chopin's etudes.

Right up there with the revolutionary.

[cellodude]

Uhh... excuse the ignorance, but can someone enlighten me as to which etude (opus and number) the winter wind is? I have the Edition Peters version of the etudes and it doesn't identify the etudes by name.

In fact I have not heard the etudes being referrred to by their names until I joined PF. I have learnt Op. 25 No. 1 and didn't know it was called the 'Harp etude'. I am now attempting Op. 25 No. 12 and thanks to Medtner I now know it's called the 'Ocean Etude'. I am also learning the Op. 10 No. 9, does it have a name?

Thanks,

dennis lee

[jon]

The 'winter wind' etude is op.25 no.11.I don't think op10. no.9 has a nickname, There are quite a few though.Op. 10 no. 5 'black key etude', op.10 no. 12 'revolutionary etude', op. 25 no.6 'thirds etude' (obviously), op 25 no. 9 'butterfly etude', op.25 no. 10 'octave etude'.Along with the other ones you mentioned I think I have heard somewhere the op.25 no. 5 has been called the 'wrong note etude'.

[Awakening]

Keep in mind that the "naming" of the etudes aren't by any means official, and I'm pretty sure they were all come up with afterward by people other than Chopin.  Nevertheless, some of the names are quite fitting. 

EDIT:  Except for Op. 10/3 in E Major, "Tristesse," which I think is the name Chopin gave it.  Easily one of my favorite etudes. 

[Glissando]

Coincidentally, I just spent all of July learning the Winter Wind.

That's a great piece to learn in July.

[cellodude]

...
the op.25 no. 5 has been called the 'wrong note etude'.

Ha Ha very funny. Thanks Jon.

dennis lee

[cellodude]

Keep in mind that the "naming" of the etudes aren't by any means official, and I'm pretty sure they were all come up with afterward by people other than Chopin.  Nevertheless, some of the names are quite fitting.

Yeah, from what I know the publishers are usually the culprits.

EDIT:  Except for Op. 10/3 in E Major, "Tristesse," which I think is the name Chopin gave it.  Easily one of my favorite etudes. 

Mine too.

dennis lee