Buying a piano for the first and only time (€20,000 budget)

[pbryld]

Hello there :-)

I haven't been playing the piano for too long, but it is going well and i know that I will continue playing for the rest of my life.
The upright piano I have now doesn't work properly, so I really need a new one.

I am just getting into the market, and wow, it's a jungle.

I want to buy a horizontal piano, and I want it to last for the rest of my life, almost no matter how good I get (I know that is pushing it, but I hope you get the idea). I only want to spend money on a new piano once, even if it is 'too good for me', compared to my current level.

I don't know if prices are the same in Europe (Denmark) and the US, but my guess would be that the US is a lot cheaper with pianos as it is with everything else. So please keep that in mind.

I have been looking at the internet a lot, for prices and stuff.

From what I gather, I can get good used pianos for about €20000 (maybe a bit more if I get tempted), which is my budget. Without having played on much yet (I am going to, right now I am trying to get an idea of what to look for), I have my eyes on some used Steinways, which are around those €20k. I haven't tried them yet, as I have to drive a bit to do that. I am planning on taking a little trip going to all the dealers I can to try stuff out.
Anyways: They are from 1962 (Model S) and 1928 (Model M), both 'totally renovated'. There are also some O's that are renovated, but no production year (I guess I can call for those).
My questions are: Are they too old? Will any of them last 80 extra years? Are they worth it (given I like the sound)?

On a more general note:

What should I be looking for in my price range (matching my criteria)? I don't mind them used.
What brands keep their value?

I have also been looking at a a brand new upright Bechstein which is about €10.4k , and i like it. Is something like that worth it? Or should I go the used Steinway way.

If I don't like the sound of Steinway, what should I be looking at? They are the easiest to find used by far.

I have also seen never Yamaha C3s in lots of price ranges, but definitely some thousands down from €20k. Do they keep value?

I can easily travel to Germany. Can any of you Germans recommend anything? What can I get for €20k there? Is it possible to find good used (small horizontal) Bösendorfers, Bechsteins etc, that are worth it?


I am sure you have guessed that I don't know much, but I am trying to learn. That's why I am asking you clever people here.

Please help. It's so appreciated.

Peter

[toner22]

their is no to good for you piano. A brand new Baldwin all decked out, the oh so nice touch can feel like a piece of sh*t to the next guy that might want something else.  Some people like an action as light as a feather, some like a stiff heavy key.

Sound is a whole new ballpark of it's own.  So you can already play a little. That's just fine. Begin your journey. Go into a random piano dealer, find a piano you like to look at (hell if your paying that much it should at least look good in your room) and play on it. Then move onto another, play on that, note down things that seem off to you or are a putdown.

Eventually you'll find one you just really enjoy playing. It'll take some time, and if you find a dealer with an inkling or who gives a damn he can prolly suggest a few to.

[richard black]

I can answer one of your questions directly - no, the Yamaha C3 won't keep value well. The C series instruments just don't. Myabe, just maybe, an S series Yamaha would serve, but don't overlook the German brands like Bechstein and Blüthner in the used grand piano market.

In general, a very well restored piano will last a few decades, very nearly as well as a brand new instrument. Don't be in a rush to buy, and do have some fun choosing!

[john90]

You mention Steinway. You mention wanting a grand. You mention paying a bit more for the right one. You could do a lot worse than getting a new Steinway S, using the 20K+ as a deposit, looking for a dealer closing down in the recession just wanting to shift stock. Aim for 60% of list at a guess?

Plan B, fix your upright yourself, tune it, repair the action. Learn what can and can't be corrected first hand. Use this expertise to rule out many of the 100s of used pianos you see. Try over 30 before seriously considering any. You could post pictures of the problems on your piano here.

I think you need to consider new German if you are thinking 80+ years life. A new S, with smaller sound board than a longer model might keep the crown better, and just need 1 set of new strings. Second hand Japanese is unlikely to give another 80 years.

[pbryld]

Thanks for your inputs.

richard black:

Are you saying no matter what I buy, it won't last more than a 20-30 years?

I am especially interested in a used restored Steinway. Will I get the most out of restoring it again (possibly for resell) compared to other pianos?


I am also thinking about trying out some Bostons. Any experiences with those?
I don't know if all dealers run with this, but I know a store which offers a 10-year full return if you buy a new Steinway afterwards. Would this be a much better deal than buying the used Steinway I was talking about? I would definitely have the money for something like a new Model S in 10 years, and (without having called for prices) I imagine I can get a pretty decent Boston for €20,000 (?).

Thanks in advance!!!

[pbryld]

You mention Steinway. You mention wanting a grand. You mention paying a bit more for the right one. You could do a lot worse than getting a new Steinway S, using the 20K+ as a deposit, looking for a dealer closing down in the recession just wanting to shift stock. Aim for 60% of list at a guess?

Plan B, fix your upright yourself, tune it, repair the action. Learn what can and can't be corrected first hand. Use this expertise to rule out many of the 100s of used pianos you see. Try over 30 before seriously considering any. You could post pictures of the problems on your piano here.

I think you need to consider new German if you are thinking 80+ years life. A new S, with smaller sound board than a longer model might keep the crown better, and just need 1 set of new strings. Second hand Japanese is unlikely to give another 80 years.

That is good to know.

As far as my own piano goes, I believe it is impossible to save by myself. It needs new strings, has a broken soundboard (the thin huge piece of wood on the back, right?) that wasn't fixed too well, and the action isn't too good. And it isn't very pretty. The white stuff on the keys also needs to be replaced.

Regarding buying new, please see the post i posted right after your about Boston/Steinway. :-)

Thanks!

[richard black]

richard black:

Are you saying no matter what I buy, it won't last more than a 20-30 years?

Good heavens, no, I didn't mean to imply that! More like the opposite - that's the _minimum_ you should be able to expect out of a new or well-restored piano, before it needs major work. More likely in a well-cared-for domestic environment, 40-50 years. To give an idea of what a good piano can offer in the way of life expectancy, I bought a brand new Ibach upright in about 1987 and have given it a_lot_ of use. All it's ever had by way of maintenance is tuning about every 9 months, and occasional voicing of the hammers, plus two or three new strings. A few check tapes look as if they will soon break but that's a very minor job anyway.

Boston - avoid like the plague. I have found them consistently to be deeply disappointing. They are not Steinway pianos at all and are most certainly not built to the same standard. I've seen in evidence of really lousy quality control in a least a couple of them, and that's just the ones I bothered to try to fix.

It's true that Steinway pianos hold their value better than practically any other brand. But then that makes them expensive for _you_ to buy too! I bought a very old (but well restored) Bechstein grand not many years ago and it's lovely. I don't expect to sell it so I don't care what its resale value is: on the other hand, it cost me embarrassingly little.

[john90]

that's the _minimum_ you should be able to expect out of a new or well-restored piano, before it needs major work.

It's true that Steinway pianos hold their value better than practically any other brand. But then that makes them expensive for _you_ to buy too!

 I bought a very old (but well restored) Bechstein grand not many years ago and it's lovely. I don't expect to sell it so I don't care what its resale value is: on the other hand, it cost me embarrassingly little.

Your first major problem is being able to identify a well restored piano. Most restorations are sub standard (not as good as brand new), especially on a quality piano. Owner trying to save money, or perhaps more often with a Steinway, changing too much.

Buying a cheap Steinway. The cheapest can be brand new with discount. Or perhaps end of life, playing 80% of what it once did. Most expensive is perhaps an OK restoration on a 100 year old Steinway that will only ever give 80% of what it is capable of.

Why has Richard got two pianos (I'm guessing in the same house) if they are both so good? It is a good idea if you have space. Getting one instrument that is perfect at everything is probably impossible and definitely expensive. I could see myself with 3, for less than E20K. A longer Boesendorfer for Chopin, the nice crisp S for Mozart, and something like your upright perhaps (Google DIY soundboard repair!). Don't worry about the strings on that unless they start snapping. A Bluthner might be a nice choice if I could only have one piano. Bechstein grands are the bargains of the post war years. Anti-German sentiment, (that Steinway having a strong NY presence nicely side stepped), followed by a few cracked iron frames put people off. Personally I would look at a Bechstein, were it not for the fact that someone gave me a little used 15 year old (at the time) Model S many moons ago, and a bigger Boesendorfer would perhaps be more of a contrast. However this is all pure fantasy in my situation, the S is in storage in the UK, I need to find somewhere to put it over here, and then there are storage, import and transport costs. These are the problems of a One Piano for Life scenario. Plus with less capital in the Bechstein, there is less incentive to sell, less financial stress about damage and insurance. Perhaps you could even install a Silent system on it, and get Midi out, and get the action nicely set up at the same time. 5 years down the track you could still have something  worth more than you paid, costing a lot less than 20K euro. There are so many nice Bechsteins with interesting case designs too.

[keys60]

Since you mentioned piano for life, then who cares if the Yamaha C series doens't hold their value? Its a good piano. Not the one of my choice, but still good.

I'd try to seek a little larger than the S of the Steinway. They sound kind of bright and high pitched being so short. If you could move up to the M or the O, they do sound better. The S still has a great action though if space is an issue.

I am of the German and American piano school myself. Under 6 foot, I like Mason Hamlins. I prefer the Hamburg Steinway action to the American, although they both sound marvelous.

I like the sounds of Chickerings although they can get a bit temperamental. Knabe makes a good lower cost piano. Sohmers is a good piano. I like the action.

But since you are in Europe, You have access to more European made pianos. Take you time. Really shop around. No one here can tell you what is best for you.

[richard black]

Why has Richard got two pianos (I'm guessing in the same house) if they are both so good?

Cos he's married to a pianist! 

Your first major problem is being able to identify a well restored piano

Very good point - and the best way to do that is to get recommendations from owners who have had a piano restored by a certain restorer and are happy with the work.

Incidentally it's possible to pick up a full-size concert grand (270cm) for very little money, surprisingly often. Concert halls want to buy new and there's not much market for their cast-offs second-hand (even Steinways) because few people can justify the size taking up most of their home.