On the use of 256th notes in music

[iratior]

The use of 256th notes in music is very rare.  I've seen them used a little bit in Dussek.  In the Beethoven 3rd piano concerto, there is a run that puts 15 notes in the right hand in the space of a sixteenth note in the left;  some editions put six flags on the notes there, so it looks like 256th notes, though it would be more properly written with quintuple quavers.  Sometimes I think it would be fun to write a composition just for the sake of putting 256th notes in it.  I'd have the tempo be adagio, of course.  Maybe about 40 eighth notes per minute (yes! -- it would be a very slow adagio).  I'd have the key be C-major, so it could use glissandi as runs.  So it could be done.  But it's interesting -- has anybody else seen 256th notes?

[djealnla]

https://www.informatics.indiana.edu/donbyrd/CMNExtremes.htm

See "Duration and Rhythm".

[ongaku_oniko]

What's the point of making it that messy?

[richard black]

Why stop there? But frankly I find 4 beams (64ths) quite enough to read, thanks!

[iratior]

It was very interesting to learn, from djealnla's source, that Vivaldi wrote some 256th notes.  I never would have expected to find any in baroque music, since most instances of 128th notes occur in music of the classical era.   Thinking about 256th notes brings us to thoughts of the future of music.  For notes in the ordinary range of human hearing, the vibrations per second are normally well under 20,000, so it's hard to see how the frequency of exceptionally fast notes in that range could be ascertained by the listener.  Like ordinarily fast notes in the bass of ordinary music, it could be hard to prevent them from sounding "muddy".  But if a strain of humans were genetically engineered to be able to hear up to 100,000 vibrations per second, such people could hear fast music using such vibrations.  And more elaborate chords, for that matter.  There could be ultrasonic musical masterpieces just waiting to be discovered!

[pianoplayjl]

Why stop there? But frankly I find 4 beams (64ths) quite enough to read, thanks!

Same here. Even 32nd notes are a headache to me.

[perfect_pitch]

I've had many a time when I've seen 128th notes, and I've just two seconds ago seen worse than that...



WOAH...   

[pianoplayjl]

Jeez, P_P! where did that come from?

[nyiregyhazi]

Do they have any real significance- other than out of academic interest? Seeing as notes are just relative to each other within the given tempo, there's nothing inherently "quick" about any particular value compared to another. Even 256ths could theoretically be slow. Well, okay "slow" in unlikely, but they're unlikely to go any faster than semiquavers in a molto prestissimo.

You could argue that notationally they imply something different to the equivalent rhythm written in a more easily legible way, but does one line or two more or less make any difference to that kind of visual impression at that stage? It's like Tchaikovsky 6 or 7 ps at the end of the pathetique. I forget exactly how many, but once you get to pppp, it's not as if another one really affects the impression.

[nyiregyhazi]

I've had many a time when I've seen 128th notes, and I've just two seconds ago seen worse than that...



WOAH...   

PDQ Bach? I presume that's not a serious piece of music.

[pianowolfi]

PDQ Bach? I presume that's not a serious piece of music.

I guess it's CPE Bach.

[perfect_pitch]

It's from Anthony Phillip Heinrich's Toccata Grande Cromatica from The Sylviad, Set 2, m. 16

[sunshine_keys]

  WOW! Those are insane!

[werq34ac]

i've seen some js Bach that comes devilishly close to 256th notes. Never bothered counting them though. I think they were 128ths

See Solo violin sonata 1, 2 grave movements, sarabande from keyboard partita 1, etc.

[pianoplayjl]

I've seen 128th notes. I think they were used in beethoven's pathetique sonata 1st movement in the begining.

[destini]

But if a strain of humans were genetically engineered to be able to hear up to 100,000 vibrations per second, such people could hear fast music using such vibrations.

On the subject of this, they would as well be able to hear mice singing

The Mystery of the Singing Mice

[scottmcc]

honestly, what's the point of a note value that small?  if the tempo is sufficiently slow that you could play it as written, would the piece even be worth playing?  eg...slow the tempo down to 1 quarter per minute...but why?  why not just write it at a more reasonable speed, with more reasonable note values.  you can write something so that it looks ugly, or you can distill it down to only the necessary complexity persists.  how you solve such a problem is what separates adequate composers from the truly gifted, at least in my mind.

PDQ Bach is my favorite of the many Bach's though. 

[pianoplayjl]

Probably to make the music look and sound harder.

[werq34ac]

honestly, what's the point of a note value that small?  if the tempo is sufficiently slow that you could play it as written, would the piece even be worth playing?  eg...slow the tempo down to 1 quarter per minute...but why?  why not just write it at a more reasonable speed, with more reasonable note values.  you can write something so that it looks ugly, or you can distill it down to only the necessary complexity persists.  how you solve such a problem is what separates adequate composers from the truly gifted, at least in my mind.

PDQ Bach is my favorite of the many Bach's though. 

Although physically, a half note at 100 and a quarter note at 100 sound the same, I would interpret them very differently. Half note at 100 would probably have an allegro marking or faster while quarter note at 100 would probably have an andante-allegretto marking. In general, I feel like shorter note values have less importance. For instance, a 16th note in a run is less noticeable than a quarter note elsewhere. So the purpose of having ridiculous note values like 128th notes is not to make the music harder but because the 128th note has a different feel from a 64th note. These ridiculous note values are usually used in slow pieces since otherwise they wouldn't be possible or coherent. In these slow pieces, The harmonies change very slowly and there needs to be something happening in between, thus composers probably add in lots of notes that, when looked at objectively, are not that slow, but feel slow due to the context.

Someone correct me if I'm totally off

[nyiregyhazi]

Although physically, a half note at 100 and a quarter note at 100 sound the same, I would interpret them very differently. Half note at 100 would probably have an allegro marking or faster while quarter note at 100 would probably have an andante-allegretto marking. In general, I feel like shorter note values have less importance. For instance, a 16th note in a run is less noticeable than a quarter note elsewhere. So the purpose of having ridiculous note values like 128th notes is not to make the music harder but because the 128th note has a different feel from a 64th note. These ridiculous note values are usually used in slow pieces since otherwise they wouldn't be possible or coherent. In these slow pieces, The harmonies change very slowly and there needs to be something happening in between, thus composers probably add in lots of notes that, when looked at objectively, are not that slow, but feel slow due to the context.

But how many extra lines can you add before the connotations of the difference cease to exist to any meaningful degree? Is an equivalent minim rhythm notated in crotchets as different as notating an equivalent to a 128th note rhythm in 256th notes? By this point I don't believe there's any more difference (even when reading between the lines) than there is between Tchaikovsky's pppppp and either ppppp or ppppppp.

[werq34ac]

But how many extra lines can you add before the connotations of the difference cease to exist to any meaningful degree? Is an equivalent minim rhythm notated in crotchets as different as notating an equivalent to a 128th note rhythm in 256th notes? By this point I don't believe there's any more difference (even when reading between the lines) than there is between Tchaikovsky's pppppp and either ppppp or ppppppp.

Yes, connotation is a good word to use..
But the connotations of the 16th notes or 32nd notes are important. And in really slow pieces, there are 16th notes and 32nd notes whose connotations are important and if the composer throws in notes that are 2x 4x 8x faster than those then one cannot really change note values in order to "clean it up." I think that the importance of these note values depends not on the specific place where it occurs but rather the the whole picture.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, connotation is a good word to use..
But the connotations of the 16th notes or 32nd notes are important. And in really slow pieces, there are 16th notes and 32nd notes whose connotations are important and if the composer throws in notes that are 2x 4x 8x faster than those then one cannot really change note values in order to "clean it up." I think that the importance of these note values depends not on the specific place where it occurs but rather the the whole picture.

Indeed, that's what I'm saying myself. 16th notes are so familiar and 32nd notes are so visibly different (even at the first glance) that the connotations are extremely different.

However, considering how much effort and counting up of lines it takes merely to determine whether a note is a 128th or a 256th, there's significant question as to whether there are any connotations beyond the relative lengths. It's analagous to how pp and p are very different whereas pppppp and ppppp are scarcelty different at all. Once you get past a certain point, you're left with nothing but the mathematical ratios for note-lengths. An extra line makes no difference to the impression.

[autodidact]

I'm not quite seeing how the analogy of pppppp vs. ppppppp applies to this so exactly, seeing as there are mathematical ratios involved in note values + tempo, but there aren't so much in the interpretation of dynamic markings.
However, I am in agreement with those saying that there shouldn't be much use for 256th notes. If you want to be able to play anything remotely intricate in notes of that value, you're not going to get higher than 15 quarters a minute. I can't see much justification for a piece to have that kind of tempo.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not quite seeing how the analogy of pppppp vs. ppppppp applies to this so exactly, seeing as there are mathematical ratios involved in note values + tempo, but there aren't so much in the interpretation of dynamic markings.

As I pointed out, it was compared to the possibility of an EQUIVALENT notation, mathematically speaking. So the only issue lies within connotations that go beyond rhythmic ratios. ppp already means extremely quiet so pppppp is different only in connotations. It's not as if performers actually have three distinctly softer levels beyond their typically ppp. Once you start comparing pppppp with ppppp, there's no pragmatic difference. Similarly, there's no reason why 256th notes would suggest anything different to 128th notes, if they were notated in an alternative but equivalent way.

Also, I calculate that for 256th notes to be played at a rate of any less than 16 per second (which is seriously quick!), you'd need a beat of no more than 3.75 crotchets per minute (multiply that by 256 and divide by 60 to show that it would leave 16 notes per second). How can such a situation possibly arise? Clearly that ridiculous composition above conveys nothing but connotations- not an actual rhythm that could physically be realised without the aid of a computer.

[werq34ac]

As I pointed out, it was compared to the possibility of an EQUIVALENT notation, mathematically speaking. So the only issue lies within connotations that go beyond rhythmic ratios. ppp already means extremely quiet so pppppp is different only in connotations. It's not as if performers actually have three distinctly softer levels beyond their typically ppp. Once you start comparing pppppp with ppppp, there's no pragmatic difference. Similarly, there's no reason why 256th notes would suggest anything different to 128th notes, if they were notated in an alternative but equivalent way.

Also, I calculate that for 256th notes to be played at a rate of any less than 16 per second (which is seriously quick!), you'd need a beat of no more than 3.75 crotchets per minute (multiply that by 256 and divide by 60 to show that it would leave 16 notes per second). How can such a situation possibly arise? Clearly that ridiculous composition above conveys nothing but connotations- not an actual rhythm that could physically be realised without the aid of a computer.

Hmmm well if you put the math behind it, 256th notes are pretty ridiculous and only used to computerized pieces not meant to be even played by a real person. Probably the shortest note value used legitimately is 128th notes, which have to be incredibly rare. And I looked at the Bach Sarabande from partita 1 again and it only goes up to 64th notes I think.

[pianoplayjl]

I once saw 128th notes somewhere in Alkan's four ages of man sonata.

[pianoplayjl]

There were also some I think amateur compositions or really obscure compositions in 20th century style where there were up to 10 stems.