How to handle technically difficult works when nervous?

[lelle]

Hi!

I'm working on some for me technically challenging works, where the most difficult passages are at the upper limit of what I can properly play. When practising at home in a relaxed state I can handle all the passages, octaves, jumps and whatnot, but as soon as I get nervous, stressed or tense it all collapses.
I tense the left arm when playing simple octave melodies, I miss jumps I've hit properly a thousand times during practise, motorically intense passages become a mess. Of course it is because I am nervous, and I don't know why, but my body seems to think that tensing up will make it easier to hit the right keys, when the opposite is true. I've tried to make myself relax when I tense up, but it just ends up being fake - the body knows it still "should" be feeling tense and the playing continues to be a stressed out mess.

It won't be possible to escape being nervous when performing in public, so I am wondering: what can I do so I can handle technically difficult works at a recital when I am nervous? Anybody who has experienced or knows what I'm talking about who has some advice?

Thanks

[richard black]

I'm sure other folks will make kinder and more practical suggestions, but all the same it remains true that one of the best ways - as relied on by most experienced performers I know - is simply to practice it until it's so completely automatic that you could play it after being woken by a masked intruder at 4am and led to the piano at gunpoint.

[keyboardclass]

Paderewski said more or less the same.

[iratior]

I too have problems with nervousness.  One thing you can do is strive to make flawless recordings.  Buy a cheap tape recorder and keep recording a thing over and over again until you've ironed out all the flaws.  It will make you more nervous to be trying to do this -- like enough, the time everything is flawless is when the phone will start to ring -- but in this way, you learn to cope with more nervousness.  Another thing to do is, in effect, to "sleep on" the piece you are trying to learn.  When you are going to sleep at night, relax deeply, and imagine what it would be like to be playing the piece you want to learn.  Ideally, your fingers will start to jerk with the motions they would be taking at the keyboard.  Let them jerk for as long as possible!  The longer they jerk, the more it shows you have learned the motions you need for the piece.

[scott13]

If performance anxiety becomes a major problem you could look into "Beta Blockers" . In a sense they are drugs (Always see your Doctor as there are some side-effects) that negate the effect of Adrenaline on the Heart. Essentially meaning during times of peak anxiety, you retain a relatively low heart rate.

Largely debated within the music community whether these are effective or not.

[nanabush]

I was in the same boat last year!  My first time playing for my studio class, I had to perform the Chopin Op 48 #1, and Debussy 'le vent dans la plaine' and 'collines d'anacapri'.  Each of those are pretty short, but they have some damn tough little measures!!  My pedal foot shaky, my hands were mush, and I was disoriented 

Right after, I had to page turn for 3 sets of variations of 'the people united will never be defeated', that another student was playing!  (I'd say I was more nervous for page turning lol).

My jury was ok, but I had the same issue!

This year, I made sure I got an opportunity to play in studio every week, and would openly accept criticism from students, and I would discuss after playing what I found tough/what I did well playing.  This helped alot to situate myself when I play.  I got over the idea that I am 'being judged by everyone' when I play, and accepted that they WANT to hear me play, and no matter what will have something (positive or constructive) to say.  From this, I'd kind of tell myself "play the damn piece!".

On my jury this year, my final piece was the Mephisto Waltz.  It wasn't the coda that bugged me, it was those awful accel. chromatic runs in the first few minutes of the piece.  My issue all year was that I'd speed up at the start, and then flub those.  Several times playing it in studio, I'd completely mush up my right hand and butcher that part because of my nerves making me speed up WAY too much going into it.  Once I got more used to being in a relaxed state starting the piece, I really could do whatever I wanted while playing the piece (and not go on freakout automatic pilot, and inevitably speed up); once I got to that passage on my jury, I was able to prepare myself going into it, and adjust if I needed to.

My biggest issue when I was growing up was paying a piece by muscle memory (I've always been able to sight read well, and I would kind of force the notes down quickly and memorize it, and ignore a lot of the detail until right before an exam... and then have to pretty much memorize the dynamics separately rather than naturally include them while playing).  When a technical part would come up, I wouldn't even know I was going too quickly, and would have an "oh f*ck" moment and just blast through it.

Let yourself know that whoever you are playing for is grateful that you are about to create awesome music for them to listen to (even if it's an old examiner).  If you are comfortable playing a difficult part on your own, remind yourself "now I get to play this for someone else" rather than "damn, I'm going to screw this up in front of this person".  Nerves make it easy to think negatively, but really try to allow yourself to think how you want going into a performance.

If you barely know the piece though, and are going to perform it, I don't know what will help you  .  A lot of people will get nervous if they simply aren't ready to play the piece technically.

[starlady]

You have had excellent advice already.  I am much less advanced pianistically than you, but maybe my experience may be useful also.  When I started with my teacher I got very nervous at lessons and would flub things I could play fine when I was alone.  My teacher suggested that I practise in front of an audience. So (after establishing that the cat doesn't count as an audience) I asked my kids to sit in the room while I played, and it helped me a lot. 

Best, s.

[mcdiddy1]

Being nervous is a pretty normal part of performance. If the piece is well learned, completely I will help by recording your self, playing for others, and playing on a variety of instruments in multiple settings.

More advance techniques you can use is going over the piece mentally in your head before you play and picturing yourself play the piece to in sure the memory is there.

When you are performing, concentrate on projecting musical ideas rather than focusing on technical passages and jumps. If you imagine you are creating a musical though rather than being judged from the audience that will be benefical.

Find relaxation techniques such as breathing before you play and during appropriate places in  your music such as at the end of phrases.

You can also focus on the symptoms of the nervousness to help make them subside, such as focusing on hand shaking and quivering and they will tend to evaporate.

You can also try eating a banana before you perform because the nutrition helps curve nervous feelings. The book A Soprano on her head by Eloise Ristad is a great book that covers these type of performance problems.

[soitainly]

 I think that lots of musicians, but especially students, can get caught in the trap of always playing works that are at the edge of their abilities. You here it often in recitals where even if they get all the notes right, something is lacking emotionally. You need to advance your technique, but when it comes to performance you should consider playing pieces you are comfortable with enough to be able to do when nervous, yet still be able to play musically. I understand that in a competitive situaltion like a music college that pushing the limits is often expected, but it's still dubious to perform something that you don't have a reasonable chance of pulling off.

[pianisten1989]

Basically, you have to play it until it's not difficult anymore. Play it in such ways that gives you some "space". Make sure you can play it a bit faster than you need, maybe play it staccato... everything that makes it more difficult. Then it will feel easy to play normally.

[keyboardclass]

soitainly has a good point.  How many students lose the joy of playing?

[lelle]

Wow, lots of usefull replies here! Thanks a bunch!

@soitainly and keyboardclass:

These works are indeed at the "edge" or at least more difficult than what I'm used to playing. But these are pieces that I chose to learn, even though I knew how technically challenging they would be, because these are works that I am passionate about, the technical difficulties being an obstacle I have to overcome to be able to play them like I want to. Even though it's a struggle I can't stop loving to play these pieces.
Funnily enough, the technical difficulties seem to be more manageable when I play the piece with musicality in mind rather than technique, however it's easier to do that when relaxed at home than in front of people, where I tend to start thinking "the technique has to work now, the technique has to work now" instead of what I'm reflecting about or how I'm trying to shape the music.

When you are performing, concentrate on projecting musical ideas rather than focusing on technical passages and jumps. If you imagine you are creating a musical though rather than being judged from the audience that will be benefical.

Kinda what I noticed yeah!

[soitainly]

 I didn't mean to discourage you at all from learning the pieces you love, or to say that you shouldn't try and practice harder pieces. I am more talking about the performance aspect. When it comes to the moment of playing for and entertaining an audience, blow them away with pieces you play well and musically, don't try to impress them by playing the most difficult piece you know.

[pianisten1989]

Well, I somewhat agree with soitainly. But at the same time, we need to play difficult pieces to develop. And who cares, more than oneself, if you fail some recitals when you're young? Everybody does it, and people forget it on some days. Ofc, you shouldn't play in public if you aren't ready, but you shouldn't wait until forever until you do either.

Many teachers think like "You should play difficult pieces, they are too difficult! How are you supposed to play that?" But, how are you supposed to learn if you don't do thinks you aren't good at?
At the same time, there are teachers who never ever plays anything simple, who just spam their students with pieces they just are able to manage. And that isn't good either.
..
A bit off topic, and now I don't know how to finish... so I don't!

[lelle]

I didn't mean to discourage you at all from learning the pieces you love, or to say that you shouldn't try and practice harder pieces. I am more talking about the performance aspect. When it comes to the moment of playing for and entertaining an audience, blow them away with pieces you play well and musically, don't try to impress them by playing the most difficult piece you know.

If you need to impress I think it's more important to impress with interpretation than with technical ability anyway. Of course technical ability will help you interpret like you want but you get what I mean! Luckily I'm not supposed to perform these works in a very serious setting yet, right now it's just the end-of-the-term "practise" performance in front of other students and their parents. However if I feel secure enough and got my nerves in check later this year I'm considering playing one of the pieces (Chopin Ballade no 2 or Scriabin Sonata no 2) at a more serious performance in the middle of the summer.

I still feel pretty nervous though, but I guess this is what the practise performance is for; to see what happens with the technique when playing the pieces for the first time in front of an audience

Well, I somewhat agree with soitainly. But at the same time, we need to play difficult pieces to develop. And who cares, more than oneself, if you fail some recitals when you're young? Everybody does it, and people forget it on some days. Ofc, you shouldn't play in public if you aren't ready, but you shouldn't wait until forever until you do either.

Many teachers think like "You should play difficult pieces, they are too difficult! How are you supposed to play that?" But, how are you supposed to learn if you don't do thinks you aren't good at?
At the same time, there are teachers who never ever plays anything simple, who just spam their students with pieces they just are able to manage. And that isn't good either.
..
A bit off topic, and now I don't know how to finish... so I don't!

Seems like I'm pretty lucky there then! We mostly work on what I want to play or what my teacher suggests, so I play a mixed bag of both technically easy and challanging (and inbetween) works

[jesc]

You're getting good advice here. I agree with the notion that for performance, it is important to play pieces that you're technically comfortable by a large margin.

If you're to play a hard piece anyway that's bordering on your limits, I would second the notion that you practice to the point that it becomes automatic. I would suggest against that since from my experience it wasn't that helpful in the long run.

My first classical piece was Chopin's etude no. 3 played within a year after I got my first piano. I remembered that I practiced it so much that when I played it in front of an audience (also the first time I played for a large audience) it became so automatic that I don't remember anything on stage. Everyone was applauding after the performance but for the life of me I couldn't remember what actually happened since everything took place almost automatically from the beginning to the end of the piece. The bad thing about such level of "automatic" is that you don't have actual control from beginning to end. It felt like a runaway train. IMHO you should avoid that kind of effect if possible.

[pianisten1989]

My first classical piece was Chopin's etude no. 3 played within a year after I got my first piano. I remembered that I practiced it so much that when I played it in front of an audience (also the first time I played for a large audience) it became so automatic that I don't remember anything on stage. Everyone was applauding after the performance but for the life of me I couldn't remember what actually happened since everything took place almost automatically from the beginning to the end of the piece. The bad thing about such level of "automatic" is that you don't have actual control from beginning to end. It felt like a runaway train. IMHO you should avoid that kind of effect if possible.

I understand what you mean. But I think (or hope) there is a difference. What they mean with automatic is only the technical aspect, like playing scales - you don't really have to think "Ok here comes the f# in g major", but you know it. What you meant, I think, is to totally count on muscle memory, not only the technical stuff. I was like that too. To practise without thinking about the notes, and sooner or later you forget them. But since you're fingers remember them, it's difficult to realize it, until you perform them.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

[jesc]

yes that's the term that escaped me "muscle memory", it's good I get reminded of these from time to time.

[nyiregyhazi]

Hi!

I'm working on some for me technically challenging works, where the most difficult passages are at the upper limit of what I can properly play. When practising at home in a relaxed state I can handle all the passages, octaves, jumps and whatnot, but as soon as I get nervous, stressed or tense it all collapses.

Quite seriously, specific muscles are probably TOO relaxed and lazy when you practise. When nerves make you unstable, you resort to using all the other muscles to stabilise yourself- because you have not done enough to train the muscles with which you can stabilise yourself efficiently and without such crippling tensions. Your brain panics and puts the efforts in all the wrong places. I had much the same problem for a long time. No amount of intent at relaxation helped one bit. I had to learn how to make the right quality of contact with the keyboard. Even now, I just discovered the other day that there are countless things I haven't been doing enough. There's no short answer about how you can deal with it- but this is very much a technical issue.

[keyboardclass]

Even more seriously, ignore those who advise adding more tension.

[nyiregyhazi]

Even more seriously, ignore those who advise adding more tension.

Sure, let's just use magic and positive thinking to stop the hand and arms falling off the piano and to stop the palm crashing down into the keys when playing chords etc. Or rather, let's not. It's the failure to use rational thinking that leaves so many people unable to relax their arms. You can't relax something that is not supported- unless you are willing to have it come crashing down. Stop using such pathetic spin and start thinking about the nature of possibility.

The ONLY way to free up stiff arms is to understand where the necessary muscular actions can be used more efficiently (or to literally let the arms keep falling off the piano).  

[keyboardclass]

See what I mean?  They even tension up the discussion!

[nyiregyhazi]

See what I mean?  They even tension up the discussion!

You feel that post somehow adds something to this discussion?

[keyboardclass]

Yes, warns people off adding tension.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, warns people off adding tension.

Stop and THINK. If you hold your arm over the keys there is MORE tension in the entire arm. If you are supported at the hand end, the whole arm is able to release tension without falling off the piano. It can "hang" between two points when released- rather than have to be held up with as much effort elsewhere in the arm. This is very simply physics.

Stop repeating this irrational and ill-thought out claptrap and use your brain for a moment. There are countless situations where the only way to REDUCE tension in the WRONG place is first to ADD it in the RIGHT place (there is no adding "tension" as in stiffness but simply healthy use of muscular actions).

The fact that you are as stiff as a board in all of your videos says it all. Unless you know what the necessary positives are, hoping to remove efforts is futile. It simply means you have no control over where your subconscious will be forced to direct the efforts.

[keyboardclass]

If you are supported at the hand end, the whole arm is able to release tension without falling off the piano. It can "hang" between two points when released-

It can only hang if it's fixed at both ends, which it quite obviously isn't.  The physics is bogus! (as posters have constantly pointed out to you)

[nyiregyhazi]

It can only hang if it's fixed at both ends, which it quite obviously isn't.  The physics is bogus! (as posters have constantly pointed out to you)

No it doesn't have to be fixed!!! You're simply plucking facts from thin air.

Hang your hand down from a table. You should find that your arm can literally hang like that of a corpse. When you adjust to a playing position, the arm does not need to instantly become held. With sensitivity the muscular actions continue to be vastly less than those required to hold an arm a mm above a piano keyboard. When you find a low effort means of stability, you stop having to stiffen the arm to keep it still.

Again- you are polarising on a completely fallacious basis. An arm in not merely held or hung as if dead. There are many stages in between. ANY level of contact at the keyboard (when done productively) allows more releases in the arm, compared to a flaccid hand. Simply to keep a key down is enough to permit some degree of release- provided that you use the right actions.

[keyboardclass]

You're simply plucking facts from thin air.

Hmm..., that's where you got the originals isn't it?

[nyiregyhazi]

Hmm..., that's where you got the originals isn't it?

So you're too lazy to even include a single sentence of substance to accompany a heckle that is about as imaginative as "and your mother"? If you have nothing to contribute, why post?

[keyboardclass]

So you're too lazy to even include a single sentence of substance

I could say the same of you.  In fact there's even less substance in your daft claims.  Wake up and do some real research before abusing the real masters.

[nyiregyhazi]

I could say the same of you.  In fact there's even less substance in your daft claims.  Wake up and do some real research before abusing the real masters.

The problem is that your whole argument is based on what you would like to believe- as evidenced by the fact that you choose to make generic insults rather than deal with any of the points I made. If you want to call them "daft" then first you need to provide an illustration. Otherwise you are simply a troll.

If you don't have anything specific to say in response to my points, please stop cluttering this thread with unsubstantiated attacks. It contributes nothing to the topic.

[keyboardclass]

If you don't have anything specific to say in response to my points, please stop cluttering this thread with unsubstantiated attacks. It contributes nothing to the topic.

You can't seem to comprehend that it's your claims that are unsubstatiated.  You're advising people to add tension with no evidence whatsoever.  Posters who've been foolish enough to attempt your 'experiments' have disagreed with your results, results which you then reject.  What the hell's the point? 

[nyiregyhazi]

You can't seem to comprehend that it's your claims that are unsubstatiated.  You're advising people to add tension with no evidence whatsoever.  Posters who've been foolish enough to attempt your 'experiments' have disagreed with your results, results which you then reject.  What the hell's the point?  

A typical piece of spin. I'm not advising addition of tension. I'm advising people to perceive the only physical means that enables RELEASE of arm tensions (ie.the topic) without the arm falling from the keys. Spin does not change the nature of physical possibility. It's just spin.

Also, the fact that a structure that is supported at two ends requires less generation of effort is very well substantiated. You can substantiate by holding your arm out and relaxing. It will fall to your side. Then tie a corpse to a chair and pull its hand towards you. It will easily by aligned in a playing position. When you have support at two ends joints do not need to be held in place. They hang in place.

Maybe instead of trying to defend preconceived ideas, you could stop and think about the relevance of that for a moment? I have no interest in anything other than understanding what is possible, so I can improve my playing. Could you try thinking the same way- rather than be constantly using cheap spin and unsubstantiated attacks to try to discredit me? Do you want to defend your beliefs at all cost, or are you interested in finding something that works? Personally I've thrown out more beliefs than I could list, with the latter in mind.

[keyboardclass]

Better spin than spam.

[nyiregyhazi]

Better spin than spam.

Another entirely off-topic quip that contains no argumental substance of any kind- existing solely as a generic attempt to attack me?

Anyway, back on the subject- this is a great quote:

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level
of our training"

It's vital to remember this. All too often we settle for seemingly small imperfections in practice and are then suprised when they become wildly amplified in performance. Almost everyone performs worse under pressure- including top professionals. The difference with those who thrive is that they didn't settle for those small things in practise- so the level they fall to is still very high. Is it really so great when we play in practise- or are the problems simply a little less obvious than when nerves expose them? The problem is that mere repetition doesn't necessarily fill the holes. There's often a technical problem in that needs to be addressed, before repetition can start to reap wonders.

[soitainly]

 Where is Tina Turner when you need her. "Two men enter, one man leaves".

[keyboardclass]

Where is Tina Turner when you need her. "Two men enter, one man leaves".

I wish!

[countrymath]

I had the same problem.

I solved it just...doing it. I connected my piano to my notebook and played for friends via MSN. On the beggining it was a hell, but with time it just became normal

[omar_roy]

Keyboardclass, I believe you might be misinterpreting what he's saying.  I think all nyiregyhazi is trying to say is that there is a necessary minimal amount of tension in order to hold the arm in the "proper" playing position both while at rest, and while playing notes.  Some people place this tension in the wrong place, rather than distributing it to the right biomechanical area.  In order for the arm to be held up on the keys, there must exist some form of flexion in the arm and forearm muscles, however non-existent it may seem.  That's just basic biomechanics.  He's not advocating ADDING any tension to the already necessary minimum, but rather re-distributing it more efficiently.

It's a rather simple concept that nyiregyhazi might be over-complicating.

[nyiregyhazi]

In order for the arm to be held up on the keys, there must exist some form of flexion in the arm and forearm muscles, however non-existent it may seem.  That's just basic biomechanics.  He's not advocating ADDING any tension to the already necessary minimum, but rather re-distributing it more efficiently.

Indeed- in fact, I'm talking about REDUCING the necessary minimum virtually everywhere in the whole arm- compared to that required to hold the arm a mm above the keys without taking any support. In theory, the arm really can be hung with zero muscular effort other than those that serve to create stable contact between hand and key (which really doesn't take a large effort). I'm not saying such an extreme would be used in reality, but the better the hand supports, the more you reduce the requirement of balancing efforts in the entire arm. There are vastly less tensions in the arm when a hand contributes something to ongoing balance.

[keyboardclass]

Keyboardclass, I believe you might be misinterpreting what he's saying.  I think all nyiregyhazi is trying to say is that there is a necessary minimal amount of tension in order to hold the arm in the "proper" playing position both while at rest, and while playing notes.  Some people place this tension in the wrong place, rather than distributing it to the right biomechanical area.  In order for the arm to be held up on the keys, there must exist some form of flexion in the arm and forearm muscles, however non-existent it may seem. 

No, he's saying you should tense the fingers to support much of the weight of the arm on the keybed - on a continuous basis.  It goes contrary to all the major pedagogies of the last 100 years and is quite detrimental to the playing mechanism.

[nyiregyhazi]

No, he's saying you should tense the fingers to support much of the weight of the arm on the keybed - on a continuous basis.  It goes contrary to all the major pedagogies of the last 100 years and is quite detrimental to the playing mechanism.

No, I am not. I am saying you should use grip to stabilise SOME of the weight of the arm in a way that enables it to be released- rather than the nonsensical notion of supporting zero arm weight. This is literally impossible without the key coming up anyway. Again there is a SPECTRUM of possibility- not merely "on or off". Your video says it all:

If you think this is what it's like to support weight of the arm, you are simply judging from your own cluelessness about how it is done. Your arm is not released and it is pushing (as evidenced by your wrist going UP- when releasing it obviously makes it drop), That's something totally different. You can't speak for the limits of piano techique based on your own inability.

[keyboardclass]

No, I am not. I am saying you should use grip to stabilise SOME of the weight of the arm

A grip is tension.  To be done and finished with in the millisecond of key depression.  You don't prepare/hold it - that's just nonsensical. 

My vid shows just how much tension you need in the finger flexor muscle (in the forearm) if you wish to support the weight of the arm (about 3.35k) on the fingers - it's heavy!

Here's a vid showing the kind of looney play N advocates:

I have to avert my gaze!

[nyiregyhazi]

A grip is tension.  To be done and finished with in the millisecond of key depression.  You don't prepare/hold it - that's just nonsensical.  

Are you interested in what really goes on or are you a government spin doctor hell bent on smearing one side and promoting another? It requires some "tension" simply to hold the key down at all. Are you advocating pizzicato on every note? You do your credibility no favours by making these factually ignorant polarisations regarding what is a sliding scale of possibility. And it requires vastly more arm tensions to stop your hand falling from the piano when the finger does not create stability. Do you think ignoring that will change the nature of possbility? That you portray the collossal range of posisble levels of contact as being simply an "on or off" scenario shows just how little physical sensitivity your mindset has given you. Good pianists have a whole range of different levels of contact. Sometimes there's barely enough pressure to keep the key down. However, if you think this is the only way serious players move, you are much mistaken.

Also, considering how high your wrist is (and how it RISES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), your video illustrates NOTHING about what it takes to support a released arm. You didn't release it, or your wrist would have gone DOWN!!!!!!!!!!! Any fool can do something wrong and say "look what happens". I'm intrigued by whether you are willfully trying to smear an alternative concept by willfully misrepresenting it, or whether you sincerely believe your personal ineptitude represents the limits of human capability? Unfortunately, you have to learn how to actually let go of your muscles and stop pressing, if you want to create a relevant illustration. Rather than release your muscles, you started with your regular stiffly held arm and added muscular pressures.

And regarding the film of Alan Fraser, his high wrist is not something I believe in myself. I prefer a more released arm and an aligned wrist. The film shows something very different to using a hand to support release.

[keyboardclass]

And it requires vastly more arm tensions to stop your hand falling from the piano when the finger does not create stability.

No one's hand is about to fall off the piano.  Again it's just some weird delusion of yours.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not sure whether you missed the point willfully or through sheer ignorance. However, would you like to ask yourself WHAT STOPS your hand falling of the piano, despite the existence of gravity? In your case, it's the substantial efforts in your arm. In most pianists it's a combination of grip on the keyboard and far smaller efforts in the arm. Contact with the keyboard is not merely on or off- no matter how simplistic you pretend the situation is.

[keyboardclass]

Whatever their technique I've never seen anyone's hand fall of the keyboard.  It just isn't an issue.

[pianisten1989]

So you're on this again? Please, do this to a private discussion, or you will close down this topic as well...

[keyboardclass]

You could always join in.

[lelle]

Couldn't this discussion be settled with each of you posting a video of yourself playing something technically challenging, like a Chopin or Liszt etude, in tempo, and then others can judge if your ideas about technique can be used? Preferrably in another thread While your discussion deserves its space, with all due respect I think it has strayed from my original question in the topic and should continue elsewhere.