making treble louder than the bass or vice versa

[flapdragon]

If you play a chord in the treble and a chord in the bass at precisely the same time, is it possible to make one louder than the other? for some reason i can't figure out how to do this, unless i play one like a brief millisecond after the other.

[fleetfingers]

I can't remember a time when I couldn't emphasize a hand or a note by playing it louder than the other hand or notes. So, I can't say what the process is in learning it. I would guess that it's a mind/body control issue, and that the more you gain control of your hands and fingers in general, the easier it will be make them do what your mind tells them to. I would also guess that it's a skill akin to playing Bach, where you have to have enough control to voice two different melodies at the same time. The hands need to be able to play simultaneously, yet independent of each other.

I have tried to get my beginning students to play the right hand louder than the left, or vice versa, to bring out the melody and they can't do it. If there is a way to train a student to be able to, I would like to know what it is. But, after contemplating this issue, my conclusion is that the ability will come in time, in proportion to the overall control that is being developed in the pianist.

[bbush]

Welcome, FlapDragon!  

I can tell you that after a lot more practicing, you'll find that making one hand louder than the other becomes not only easy, but necessary to playing many pieces correctly.  Not only one hand over the other, either; you'll soon be working to make one NOTE out of a chord sound louder than the others, also as a common-place requirement for a good performance of many pieces.

So, where do you start?  It's ALL about listening to the sound you're producing and CONCENTRATING!  Of course, it's also about controlling your fingers, hands, arms, and shoulders.  But the trick is to exercise control while keeping yourself relaxed.  Yes, it's easier said than done, but this is where practice comes in.

With this challenge (making one hand sound louder than the other), at first, you can exaggerate the volume of one hand over the other by addressing the chord you want made louder by consciously using MUCH more force with that hand and holding back with the other.  After you "get" that technique, you ought to try to make one hand just a LITTLE louder than the other, thereby gaining control.

If you can practice even a little every day, you're better off than practicing a lot one or two days a week.  Every day you listen to yourself making the piano speak (while always intending to make it sing), you will make some progress, even if it's hard to notice at first.   Part of the reason for this is that your body learns things your mind is not even aware of it learning!  After a period of time practicing regularly, you will find things that are now impossible seem easy or at least MUCH easier.

Good Luck!
Bruce

[richard black]

If one note should be louder than another, the corresponding key needs to go down faster. It's as simple as that. You've just got to find a way of making your fingers do it.

[tunneller]

Hi flapdragon. If you have a very low-end electronic keyboard then you can't do this. If you have a mid-range system then the speed which you press a key will change its volume. A high-end system will go further and actually change the waveform of the sound generated, based on the velocity.

It is not dependent on the force of the finger on the key only the velocity.

If you have an analogue keyboard that uses wooden hammers to hit tightly wound metal strings then you can get the same effect provided that there is a decoupling mechanism so that pressing the key causes a wooden hammer to move independently of the key but with a momentum given by the velocity of the key. Most modern pianos have this, I think. 

The decoupling of finger "force" from the key "velocity" is non intuitive. Most beginners play a note by pushing the key down with a rigid finger. That is not exactly what you should be doing, at least not to start. Instead you should try playing the key by essentially "stroking" it, typically done with a backward curl of the finger. Hold your hand in kind of a crab-like position just over the keyboard and push the keys down by curling the finger back. The faster you curl your finger back, the louder the noise from the piano. Magic.

[bbush]

You know, tunneler, I didn't even think that flapdragon's instrument might not be capable of touch sensitivity!  But that might be the real problem, here!

What about it, flapdragon?  Can you even make successive different notes louder than the preceding or following ones if you strike the keys harder/faster?  If not, your problem is a too-limiting instrument!

[flapdragon]

oh no, i use a grand piano so touch sensitivity isn't a problem. thanks for the responses though, they make a lot of sense.

[fleetfingers]

It is not dependent on the force of the finger on the key only the velocity.

Science was my worst subject in school, especially the physical sciences, so maybe I am just not understanding. But I don't think that what you've stated here makes sense. You are saying that if you want to increase the volume, the velocity has to increase. The increase in velocity is acceleration, and acceleration is the net force applied to a mass. So, how can you take the force of the finger (or arm or whatever) out of the equation? There has to be force applied if you want to control the velocity and, therefore, the volume.

Also, a stroking technique doesn't seem like an ideal way to voice a melody if it is to be played legato. It seems to me that you do need to push the key down with a rigid finger in times when the note in the melody needs to be sustained while others are being played.

[bleicher]

Fleetfingers, you are right. The velocity depends on the force you apply, because force = mass x acceleration. Something that is important to bear in mind, though, is that the moment you've played the note, no amount of force is going to make a difference. It's important to relax the hand once a note's been played, just applying enough force to hold the key down (if it's a held note) otherwise there is unnecessary tension in the hand and arm which can cause problems. If a student is having trouble doing this it may be helpful for them to think of velocity instead of force in order to be able to do this.

I don't know how to explain to a student how to play one hand louder than the other. I remember finding it a challenge when I was learning. I think if I had to teach it I would make up a couple of exercises for them to do every day where they don't need to worry about the notes, for example just giving them a simple triad or a cluster chord, then having them listen carefully to try playing one hand then the other louder.

[amie_de_chopin]

Yes, it is possible, but it does take some time. Try inventing your own exercises to reach the goal. Try practicing chords of different loudness in the RH and LH even when you are not playing a particular piece.

[fleetfingers]

Fleetfingers, you are right. The velocity depends on the force you apply, because force = mass x acceleration. Something that is important to bear in mind, though, is that the moment you've played the note, no amount of force is going to make a difference. It's important to relax the hand once a note's been played, just applying enough force to hold the key down (if it's a held note) otherwise there is unnecessary tension in the hand and arm which can cause problems. If a student is having trouble doing this it may be helpful for them to think of velocity instead of force in order to be able to do this.

Hi, bleicher. I completely agree about releasing tension once the note has been played, even if you still have to hold the key down. But, you can't simply swipe the key in those instances. The finger has to go down with the right amount of force to make it louder than the surrounding notes. Tension can immediately be released, but the finger must stay. It's not an easy thing to do, but it needs to be mastered to voice a legato melody.

Interesting idea about using the velocity concept if it helps the student. And I like your ideas for exercises; I think my young students will like them. I also agree with the earlier post about listening and concentrating. That is a huge part of it.

[tunneller]

Hi, the velocity depends on the force you have been applying.

Not, the velocity depends on the force you *are* applying.

Subtle, but important difference.

So if you want to take two keys, start hitting them at the same time, and have them hit the hammer at the same time, you need to change the strength of the force from start to finish. To get a loud note, you start depressing the keys relatively slowly and end up pushing them quickly. To get a quiet note, you start depressing the keys relatively quickly and end up pushing them in slowly.

All of the above happening in a millesecond or so, which gets back to flapdragon's question... There are three choices, two of which are what flapdragon said, is to start the quiet note before the fast note and/or end the quiet note a fraction of a second after the loud note.

The challenge sounds like the one in the middle: start both fingers at the same time and have them end at the same time, but have one end slow and the other end fast. All within a millisecond. Sounds nuts, right?! Except you guys are doing it all the time without noticing. For the quiet note, scoop the finger backwards in a bigger curve than for the loud note. The rotation of the finger around the knuckle while the finger slides backwards provides exactly the changing downward force that you want on the key. Magic. (This all only occurred to me a few weeks ago, so I still think it is magic.)

Not to say it is trivially easy do do this, but it might make something click to the student. If they can play one finger louder than the other then surely one hand louder than other will be easier.

[fleetfingers]

Hi, tunneller,

No, it doesn't sound nuts...it makes sense now. I get confused by some of the discussions on here of this nature because my brain doesn't work that way. I've never been inclined to think about the minute details of movement going on as I play. Sometimes I read things on this forum that don't sit well with me - either it's wrong or I need some clarification (or I'm just dumb, haha). I thought for sure you were wrong, but now I get what you're saying. I learn a lot of things on here that I never would've thought to even consider. What you've shared is very interesting to me...thanks.

[tunneller]

It's only sinking into me because I'm having a very hard time doing it. Specifically, Thumb-Over in pp. This means that the hand has to zoom from one position to the next and then that first note has to be played with the hand in the new position, but it has to be pp, which means somehow move hand very fast, get finger in position, get it down fast but then slow down so that the note is finally quiet. AAAARRRGH....

but I'll get it sooner or later

[dbmusic]

Try the Shadow Technique - a method which often works in one lesson......after the student has learnt the notes of course.
If the RH has the melody and the LH needs to be softer then:
1. RH plays at required dynamic level [mf or f] or whatever on the piano
    LH mimes its notes on the left leg using correct fingers as if it were actually playing
2. RH plays as in step 1
    LH mimes on the keyboard with notes not sounding
3. RH plays as in step 1
    LH plays on the keyboard with notes barely sounding [some may sound and some may not]
4. RH plays as step 1
    LH plays softly

Voila! They're doing it!

Students will often say steps 1 and 2 are too tricky at first but I can honestly say I have never had a failure with this - with students of any age. I always work through the entire 4 steps  in the first lesson so they know the procedure but if I think they need time to master each step then I ask them to practise only that one and move onto the next one when they're ready. 
I don't talk with them about speed of striking the note because I think that presents another layer of difficulty. Keeping it simple is the best.

[keyboardclass]

The challenge sounds like the one in the middle: start both fingers at the same time and have them end at the same time, but have one end slow and the other end fast. All within a millisecond. Sounds nuts, right?!

Is nuts!  If you used a midi keyboard to measure someone who does bring out the melody you'd find all the melody notes happen well before the others.  The brain just isn't as clever as you seem to wish it to be.