alkan etude and forearm strain

[goldmember888]

Hi there everyone
Just wanted to know if anyone has any tips on how to practice/learn Alkan's Etude "Aesop's Feast"?
It is a monster of a work that I think will take some years to tame..

Also...

Has anyone ever experience any pain on the outer forearm muscles near the elbow when practicing and if so do you have any tips on how to help cure/relieve the tension? I find I get very tight in the winter months more noticably when practicing even after only 20 mins. 

Many thanks in advance and happy playing

Ari.

[faulty_damper]

Burning sensation on the outer forearms near the elbow means that you are actively lifting your fingers. There really shouldn't be any reason to do so. You are using improper technique. You must learn another technique.  Do you or have you practiced Hanon?  If you did, this is the reason your forearms are burning.

[pianisten1989]

Do you or have you practiced Hanon?  If you did, this is the reason your forearms are burning.

No. If your arm starts to hurt while playing Hanon, then you practise it the wrong way...

[faulty_damper]

If you follow the directions prescribed by Hanon, your muscles will burn.  If it's not burning, then you are doing it wrong.  For this reason, I am against such useless and potentially damaging exercises.

[pianisten1989]

Mmhm? Well, good for you!

[faulty_damper]

Instead of lifting your fingers, rotate the forearm as if you are turning a door knob.  It's a very small rotation but it eliminates most of the movement of finger lifting.

[pianisten1989]

Cause turning a door knob is like playing piano? How are you supposed to play fast scales only by rotating and not using your fingers?

Oh nvm, just realized that you have said several things that I think is rubbish, so I wont agree with you anyway...

[faulty_damper]

The rotation of the forearm is one of the most important movements necessary in playing the piano.  You can't turn a doorknob just by gripping the knob, just as you can't play the piano just by moving the fingers.

You don't have to agree with me but if you object, you should offer a counter argument - you have provided none.  Instead of objecting to the analogy on rational reasons, you should play the piano and notice how the forearm rotates.  If, after attempting this, and you find that the forearm does not rotate while you play the piano, then you have reasons to object. You should then offer that as evidence that playing the piano does not require forearm rotation.  Good luck!

[faulty_damper]

Also, I never said playing the piano doesn't require moving the fingers; you said it in an attempt to alter what I previously mentioned to suit your needs.  I said that it "eliminates most of the movement of finger lifting" which is what it appears the original poster was having issues with.

[nyiregyhazi]

Also, I never said playing the piano doesn't require moving the fingers; you said it in an attempt to alter what I previously mentioned to suit your needs.  I said that it "eliminates most of the movement of finger lifting" which is what it appears the original poster was having issues with.

I think that was a collosal piece of conjecture. Forearm pain means someone is lifting their fingers? Using a combination of the force that the key responds with plus a very slight lifting action in the muscles is a perfectly healthy action. To think of retracting the fingers simply from a rocking motion strike me as an extremely over the top idea. It's also pretty much worthless in things that require the level of speed that Alkan does. Only very specific types writing make it possible to rely on such movements at high speeds.

[bachbrahmsschubert]

Alkan's music is INCREDIBLY difficult, I'm sure you know this. If you don't know why you're having pain in your forearm, I do not recommend continuing to learn any of Alkan's Etudes (especially that one).

I'm sorry I can only offer negative news, but wish you the best of luck. Are you studying with a teacher that can help you with relaxation issues?

[faulty_damper]

I think that was a collosal piece of conjecture. Forearm pain means someone is lifting their fingers?

Look at your forearm and extend the fingers.  You will see that the muscles near the elbow are contracting.

The only physiological reason for the burning sensation would be the build of up of protons as a result of repeatedly excited muscles.

To think of retracting the fingers simply from a rocking motion strike me as an extremely over the top idea.

I never said this.  You cannot mechanically retract the fingers by rotating the forearms; you retract by contracting the muscles in the interior of the forearms.  The purpose of rotating the forearms is to align the fingers into a more efficient mechanical position in relation to the keyboard while they depress the keys.

A simple exercise will help with understanding this concept:
RH: In 5-finger position, depress a key with the thumb and rotate the forearm until all the fingers have depressed the adjacent keys.  This is forearm rotation and a very necessary movement in playing fast scales with the minimum of effort.

[pianisten1989]

The rotation of the forearm is one of the most important movements necessary in playing the piano.  You can't turn a doorknob just by gripping the knob, just as you can't play the piano just by moving the fingers.

You don't have to agree with me but if you object, you should offer a counter argument - you have provided none.  Instead of objecting to the analogy on rational reasons, you should play the piano and notice how the forearm rotates.  If, after attempting this, and you find that the forearm does not rotate while you play the piano, then you have reasons to object. You should then offer that as evidence that playing the piano does not require forearm rotation.  Good luck!

You can't write on a computer if you don't use your fingers. Which is far more like playing piano than gripping a door knob.
Though, ofc I know that you can't only use your fingers. Since we have a whole body to use, it would be stupid to isolate it to such a weak part as the fingers.
But tell me, how can you play scales by rotating? I know there are a few videos about rotating scales, but they all end with "You can't see it, but if you listen, you know they are there" which is nothing but stupid. ... And it's almost never a good scale..

Look at your forearm and extend the fingers.  You will see that the muscles near the elbow are contracting.

Look when you rotate! The whole arm is shaking!!! Duh?! Ofc you can notice that something happens around the elbow if you use your fingers, since they are connected!

[nyiregyhazi]

Look at your forearm and extend the fingers.  You will see that the muscles near the elbow are contracting.

Yes, or if I make a fist. So your conjecture is spectacularly assumptive. There are many ways to seize up a forearm.

I never said this.  You cannot mechanically retract the fingers by rotating the forearms; you retract by contracting the muscles in the interior of the forearms.  The purpose of rotating the forearms is to align the fingers into a more efficient mechanical position in relation to the keyboard while they depress the keys.

Actually, that's exactly what you said- to replace finger retractions with forearm rotations. "Instead of lifting your fingers, rotate the forearm as if you are turning a door knob." You didn't say it was about aligning fingers anywhere.

A simple exercise will help with understanding this concept:
RH: In 5-finger position, depress a key with the thumb and rotate the forearm until all the fingers have depressed the adjacent keys.  This is forearm rotation and a very necessary movement in playing fast scales with the minimum of effort.

Umm, this is supposed to put the fifth in "a more efficient mechanical position in relation to the keyboard while they depress the keys."? Not a blatantly less efficient position? How is a fifth that is angled completely across the key in any way efficient? It makes the motion of the 5th virtually useless. You want to put your weakest finger in a position where it is also the single least optimally aligned finger to move the key? Take a disadvantaged finger and find a way to make it even less able? Try doing that in Chopin's op. 10 no. 2.

[keyboardclass]

Actually, that's exactly what you said- to replace finger retractions with forearm rotations. "Instead of lifting your fingers, rotate the forearm as if you are turning a door knob." You didn't say it was about aligning fingers anywhere.

Errr..., that would be Matthay (and Taubman).

[faulty_damper]

Yes, or if I make a fist. So your conjecture is spectacularly assumptive. There are many ways to seize up a forearm.

It is not an assumption, it is deduction.

There is only one way to seize up the forearm, by co-contraction - contracting both the anterior and posterior forearm muscles.  Making a fist does not require co-contraction, only contraction of the anterior muscles, thus allowing the hand to make a fist.

If muscles burn, acidosis, it is a result of the build up of protons as a result of the chemical reactions necessary to contract the muscles.  This is the problem Goldmember was referring to.  There is only one way that muscles would suffer from acidosis, from over exerting muscles.  Since the muscles near the elbow on the posterior forearm are burning, and the muscles located at the posterior of the forearm are attached to the fingers, then he is lifting his fingers excessively.

Actually, that's exactly what you said- to replace finger retractions with forearm rotations. "Instead of lifting your fingers, rotate the forearm as if you are turning a door knob." You didn't say it was about aligning fingers anywhere.

It is clear that the problem was caused by excessively lifting the fingers.  The lifting would require dropping of the fingers to exert force onto the keys.  I suggest that instead of lifting the fingers, usually a requirement when the forearm is immobile (does not rotate), the forearm should rotate as a way to depress the keys.  This works very well in scalar passages and a requirement for fast passages.

Umm, this is supposed to put the fifth in "a more efficient mechanical position in relation to the keyboard while they depress the keys."? Not a blatantly less efficient position? How is a fifth that is angled completely across the key in any way efficient? It makes the motion of the 5th virtually useless.

The fifth finger in such a passage would be most able to play a scalar passage AND in isolation, i.e. depressing a single key.  The reason: it is aligned with the forearm, creating a straight leverage from the elbow to the tip of the finger.

While the 5 depresses the key at an oblique angle, realize also that the rest of the hand is ever so slightly above that finger.  The transfer of weight from the rolling motion (forearm rotation) is what helps depress the key.  Notice also that while the 5 is on the outside of alignment (3 being the most easily aligned if you were to draw a line from the elbow to the 3), when you rotate, the 5 rotates under slightly, making a slightly straighter attack angle (like a chopping motion).

[orangesodaking]

Hey guys, I like the part of this thread where you all discuss Alkan and Aesop's Feast.

Oh, wait.

Le Festin d'Esope is a very taxing work and requires lots and lots of chops. If you can't really take each and every variation by storm (as in, you have to do a lot of struggling), then you won't produce a convincing interpretation of it, because it's supposed to sound humorous, witty, and charming; not exhausting and like you're "reaching to the peak of your abilities" to get through it.

Regarding forearm strain, whenever you feel the burning, pain, or even a bit of fatigue, stop practicing. Stop, rest your arm, and don't use it until it feels better again. I've heard that you can put ice on your arm to help, but I've never had a serious arm issue, so I don't know for sure.

If you really want to play some Alkan, there's no shame in passing up one of the "biggins" for now. There really is some fantastic music throughout all of his output. I don't think Op. 35 No. 11 is to hard... It has a beautiful melody, it has that refreshing and uplifting feel because it's in the key of B major, and if you can keep from tensing up too much throughout all of the chords, it should be no problem! AND it should build up stamina for pieces like Le Festin d'Esope. It will also help with gauging a buildup and a leading to a climax and things like that.

Now, I don't know your playing, and if you really are at the caliber to take on Le Festin d'Esope, then by all means, do it!!

[nyiregyhazi]

"If muscles burn, acidosis, it is a result of the build up of protons as a result of the chemical reactions necessary to contract the muscles.  This is the problem Goldmember was referring to.  There is only one way that muscles would suffer from acidosis, from over exerting muscles.  Since the muscles near the elbow on the posterior forearm are burning, and the muscles located at the posterior of the forearm are attached to the fingers, then he is lifting his fingers excessively."

This does not follow. You don't have to lift the fingers even a mm to seize up. If a person feels unstable, they will generically tend to seize up many muscles. This can easily occur both without any thought at all of lifting fingers and without any finger lifting occurring. As I said, I can tense my whole forearm when making a fist, should I choose to. All it takes is one counterexample to disprove a claim. Your theory is based on unsubstantiated and illogical conjecture. Also, for all we know, he may actually be gripping way too hard and the opposing muscles are hence having to activate in a bid to stop the hand closing up too far. If that were the case, the answer would be to grip less, so the opposing muscles had nothing to fight against.

"While the 5 depresses the key at an oblique angle, realize also that the rest of the hand is ever so slightly above that finger.  The transfer of weight from the rolling motion (forearm rotation) is what helps depress the key."

Before you said this does not replace finger action? Well, you seem to have changed your tune. When the 5th is off line, it's action basically become pretty useless. Try playing op. 10 no. 2 by rotating into your 5th. It's a futile task.

There's an easy way to debunk rotation. Try playing 5 ascending notes with ONLY rotation at a very slow tempo. Try to figure out the minimum movement required- but without actively moving the fingers at all. It will still be a massive movement. Now, what possible rational explanation is there for what happens when these movements become small? If you can't do small ones at a slow tempo, without the finger taking over- how on earth would this be possible at speed? It isn't. The fingers take over. Rotation is by far a lesser element- even when exaggerated.

[nyiregyhazi]

Errr..., that would be Matthay (and Taubman).

Your point being? I wasn't talking about them. I was replying to what the poster said.

[faulty_damper]

As I said, I can tense my whole forearm when making a fist, should I choose to. All it takes is one counterexample to disprove a claim. Your theory is based on unsubstantiated and illogical conjecture. Also, for all we know, he may actually be gripping way too hard and the opposing muscles are hence having to activate in a bid to stop the hand closing up too far. If that were the case, the answer would be to grip less, so the opposing muscles had nothing to fight against.

There is only one way that tension of the muscles occur: co-contraction, the simultaneous contraction of opposing muscles.  A muscle can only contract (shorten its length). It cannot lengthen on its own; it's physiologically impossible.  It lengthens by the opposing muscles action or by relaxing and allowing gravity to pull the arm, for example, down.

Note that the original poster stated that only the muscles on the forearm by the elbow were burning.  He did not also say it was burning on the inside of his forearm.   If he were co-contracting, not only would the posterior muscles burn but also his anterior muscles.  This is how I deduced that he is excessively lifting his fingers (most likely his 3 and/or 4 since it's the easiest to over exert) as well as having the experience of having burning forearms.

Before you said this does not replace finger action? Well, you seem to have changed your tune. When the 5th is off line, it's action basically become pretty useless.

No it's not.  Gyogy Sandor, On Piano Playing, suggests that the arm should extend outward as the forearm rotates inward to align the fingers, including the 5, so that the action of the fingers are as vertical as possible as well as being aligned with the forearm when striking the key.  He is right about all of the fingers except for the 5 because he forgot one thing: as you align the 5 in a straight line with the forearm, that finger becomes limited in movement because the tendon and muscle becomes stretched.  That stretch limits how much the muscle can contract.

Try playing op. 10 no. 2 by rotating into your 5th. It's a futile task.

You are using targeted examples at an attempt to make your argument.  Chopin wrote that etude specifically to counter the prevailing pedagogical concepts of the time (which still persists.)  It is a shill argument and one that you should avoid as it simply allows you to pull any extreme example from the repertoire as evidence.

There's an easy way to debunk rotation. Try playing 5 ascending notes with ONLY rotation at a very slow tempo. Try to figure out the minimum movement required- but without actively moving the fingers at all. It will still be a massive movement. Now, what possible rational explanation is there for what happens when these movements become small? If you can't do small ones at a slow tempo, without the finger taking over- how on earth would this be possible at speed? It isn't. The fingers take over. Rotation is by far a lesser element- even when exaggerated.

A very slight contraction of a muscle that moves a finger can cause the finger to move great distances.  The tip of a sword moves farther than the hilt when swung, for example, it also appears that the muscles contract a greater amount than it really is when the fingers move.  It isn't.  The fingers still do not take over (though with an incredible amount of practice, it is possible but highly inefficient and less effective.)  The forearm must still supinate in the example you describe and you concede that it does rotate but just a lot less compared to the fingers.  I never said the pronation and supination of the forearms were a lot; they are very small.

Most people think piano is about the flexing of the fingers.  The fingers are only a small part of the mechanics.  Everything the fingers are attached to must work synchronously to achieve movement.

[nyiregyhazi]

"Note that the original poster stated that only the muscles on the forearm by the elbow were burning.  He did not also say it was burning on the inside of his forearm.   If he were co-contracting, not only would the posterior muscles burn but also his anterior muscles.  This is how I deduced that he is excessively lifting his fingers (most likely his 3 and/or 4 since it's the easiest to over exert) as well as having the experience of having burning forearms. "

I debunked that chain of logic in my last post. Why are you repeating it? A CO- contraction (note CO) can equally be caused by excessive inward grip demanding something to counter it. So the above does not follow at all. Also, with any level of co-contraction no lifting need ever occur. Again as I already said, it's possible with a clenched fist- the straightening muscles being far weaker than the gripping ones and hence more prone to tiredness.

Also, I've never experience a trace of effort around my elbow while using straightening actions of the fingers into the keys. It only happens when I feel I'm clenching to keep balance.

"You are using targeted examples at an attempt to make your argument.  Chopin wrote that etude specifically to counter the prevailing pedagogical concepts of the time (which still persists.)  It is a shill argument and one that you should avoid as it simply allows you to pull any extreme example from the repertoire as evidence."

Not only is that piece impossible without proper finger activity, but I use the same actions elsewhere- notably in the thirds etude. These are not exactly abnormal pieces. Any serious pianist is supposed to be up to playing them. Any technical system that cannot make that possible is just bullshit. To put standard repetoire as supposedly just being an abberation (and then try to use that to sidestep the issue without any other response) makes for a flimsy argument indeed. A technical system that cannot explain such standard repertoire is simply a poor one. Rotation is useless, without the finger actions.


"A very slight contraction of a muscle that moves a finger can cause the finger to move great distances.  The tip of a sword moves farther than the hilt when swung, for example, it also appears that the muscles contract a greater amount than it really is when the fingers move.  It isn't.  The fingers still do not take over (though with an incredible amount of practice, it is possible but highly inefficient and less effective.)"

That last sentence is entirely in contradiction with everything that precedes it. You can't have your cake and eat it.

"The forearm must still supinate in the example you describe and you concede that it does rotate but just a lot less compared to the fingers.  I never said the pronation and supination of the forearms were a lot; they are very small."

So how are the keys being moved then- given that the exercise I described shows how large the movements must be for rotation to replace finger motions? You didn't even attempt to deal with that major issue. Rationally, there is no credible explanation. Rotation can only replace finger actions in large movements. When rotation is reduced, there's nothing left but finger motion to explain it.

[keyboardclass]

I debunked that chain of logic in my last post. Why are you repeating it? A CO- contraction (note CO) can equally be caused by excessive inward grip demanding something to counter it.

In your dreams.  The last sentence means nothing.

[delark]

people are complaining about burning forearms, when at old days it was a good sign of a well practice, days were pianist put their hands in hot water to relax their muscles, days where the teachers hit your fingers when you made a mistake. at those days not everyone were  pianists because of the great sacrifice and commitment it was required.
Ive always been told that a burning forearm its because your lack skill at fingering. but as every muscle, it hurts just at the begining, its good that when this happens you try to open your hand as much as posible it will hurt more, and the just relax your hand. then start the practice again.