c.c.chang

[nick]

I could use some help on getting certain long passages up to 1.5 times performance speed HS as anyone familiar with Chang's piece. I did the parallel sets with just two notes at a time, segment work with 5, then 9 notes, sometimes 17 notes(includes conjunction), but cannot string them together as tension builds and fingers stop after so many notes in a row. If I just do 8 notes in a row repeats, I can do it forever with no fatique. Is the process  that I do as many notes as I start to feel fatigue as Chang states, then switch hands, or something else, as I was doing this for awhile, several days, and didn't see impovment. Could it be one should not feel any fatigue at all? Since my goal speed is 126, 1.5 HS is 189. Sure seems fast to play 195 notes in a row at that speed. Maybe not possible.
Thanks for help in advance!
Nick    

[Piazzo22]

I could use some help on getting certain long passages up to 1.5 times performance speed HS as anyone familiar with Chang's piece. I did the parallel sets with just two notes at a time, segment work with 5, then 9 notes, sometimes 17 notes(includes conjunction), but cannot string them together as tension builds and fingers stop after so many notes in a row. If I just do 8 notes in a row repeats, I can do it forever with no fatique. Is the process  that I do as many notes as I start to feel fatigue as Chang states, then switch hands, or something else, as I was doing this for awhile, several days, and didn't see impovment. Could it be one should not feel any fatigue at all? Since my goal speed is 126, 1.5 HS is 189. Sure seems fast to play 195 notes in a row at that speed. Maybe not possible.
Thanks for help in advance!
Nick    

Chang doesn't know what he's talking about.  Just practice slowly, technique is not aquired conciously (George Kochevitsky). It just will come if you listen carefully and practice slowly. Kochevitsky said that you can play as fast as you can think of the sounds lively. It's really interesting.
Read this an tell me all what you think
https://www.halgalper.com/13_arti/practiceandperformancegoals.htm

"...in his book "The Art of Playing The Piano" (Summy-Birchard Company) George Kochevitsky's impeccable scientific research on how the mind and nervous system function when playing music, proved that all music is played by ear! That you can't play anything until you can hear it first. In scientific terms he's talking about is developing a strong brain-to-hand signal. Kochevitsky proved that if the signal from the brain is strong enough, the hands will do anything to get the sound out...."

[nick]

I read the link, Piazzo22, and can see how this could help certain people, improvisers the most. For you to say C.C. Changs method is nonesense, this must mean you have tried following his way for a good period of time, and did  not gain benefit. Even then you must admit others might benefit from it. My experience so far, about 3 or 4 weeks, have been positive. I sum up the method in simplistic terms by saying it is like if you ever rode in a car going around 90 mph for awhile, then went down to 60, the 60 would feel like you were crawling! This is the same principle of Changs. Small segments much faster then needed, stringing them together HS, then the goal speed will feel slow. I have experienced this. My problem is with such long passages having the endurance to play it at much faster than needed speed HS. Fingers tire out. My lastest theory is that I must keep trying longer segments, and when it tires, wait a couple of seconds and try again. I seem to be able to repeat it with only a couple of seconds. Hopefully, I will increase the number of notes at this very fast speed. It is 189 on the metronome. I do appreciate the link you gave and am interested in what you think about the above.
Nick  

[rlefebvr]

Well, I read the article and although I have to re proof it  again, I don't see what it has to do with Chang at all. Unless we are talking about another excerpt from Changs book.

Like everything else, Chang is not God's answer to all musical, but he has some very very interesting things to say and try out.

His idea's on fast play is very interesting and have been extremely helpful to me and really has nothing to do with the art of playing slowly which can also be very helpful for different reasons. There are enough threads on this subject that one more should not be necessary.

As far as the article mentioned, it is also an interesting article, but really has little to do with learning to play the instrument and more to do with learning what music is and your relationship to it as a musician.

[tocca]

nick: You say you tire when you try to play longer sections fast.
"My lastest theory is that I must keep trying longer segments, and when it tires, wait a couple of seconds and try again."

The reason you get tired is that you're not relaxed! When you speed up you start to get tense, the main thing is to try and relax.
Play softly, with a light touch and with total relaxation. Speed will come by itself, don't try to push it.

I really don't know what to think of Changs book! Some of it seems really good, other things are just strange.
But it's definately worth reading in my view.

[amanfang]

Is the reason one tires only because he is not relaxed??  I disagree.  Perhaps you can be more efficient in your movements, but I would think that playing fast pieces and basically just using energy will tire you.  Perhaps endurance just needs to be built, which takes time.  

[nick]

Ah Ha! There is someone out there who is thinking along my lines:

Is the reason one tires only because he is not relaxed??  I disagree.  Perhaps you can be more efficient in your movements, but I would think that playing fast pieces and basically just using energy will tire you.  Perhaps endurance just needs to be built, which takes time.

Reminds me of someone trying to run a world record in running who has never even come close, and someone says the problem is they are not relaxed. Playing at 1.5 times performance speed HS is really fast stuff, and sounds reasonable that it is a building process. Otherwise, we would all be playing like concert pianists in a matter of a few weeks! After all, what seems to be a prerequisite is clear fast playing, without which there would be no hope.
Nick

[Piazzo22]

Anyway, if it is the forearm that hurts, you´re either lifting too much your fingers (hurts the top of the forearm in playing position), or you´re pressing too much (hurts the bottom of the forearm).
It´s that simple  

[amanfang]

Ok.        Here's my question then.  If tension is the ONLY reason one will tire for playing fast for so long, does that then stand to reason that as long I am playing relxed and "correctly" that I will be able to play as fast as I want for as long as I want??  I don't think that is a correct assumption.  Playing the piano has to involve some tension.  Otherwise we would just be laying in a big "blob" on the floor.  Now, just as running requires more tension in the body than does walking, I will say that playing fast requires more tension than playing slowly.  You can still be "relaxed" but you must still have some tension.  Eventually this tension will cause you to tire.  So the amount of energy must somewhat increase to compensate for the tiredness.  So then you become more tense.  And eventually you must stop.  You cannot continue to play something forever very quickly and say it is because you aren't tense.  Certainly one should pay attention to tension and search for the most efficient way to play.  

[xvimbi]

Ok.        Here's my question then.  If tension is the ONLY reason one will tire for playing fast for so long, does that then stand to reason that as long I am playing relxed and "correctly" that I will be able to play as fast as I want for as long as I want??  I don't think that is a correct assumption.  Playing the piano has to involve some tension.  Otherwise we would just be laying in a big "blob" on the floor.  

I think you guys are getting caught up in re-stating the obvious without making any real progress towards the solution to your problem. Staying "relaxed" does not apply to the body parts that are supposed to do work. It applies to those that are NOT supposed to do any work. Doing something fast for a long period of time requires power (strength), stamina, and excellent coordination (i.e technique, which means not wasting energy through superfluous movements). It's that simple! These three aspects will have to be maximized. For most people, this means improving technique, because this is what is under-developed compared to the other aspects.

[tocca]

I didn't imply that by just playing relaxed you can suddenly play like a concert pianist.
But to be able to play really fast you must be relaxed.

By relaxed i mean exactly what xvimbi says, of course you can't relax all body parts. That's pretty obvious.

If you start to tense up (muscles that aren't necessary for what you are doing) , it will hinder the speed.
I still believe that the reason you get tired is because you are tense. But i'm not saying you can just relax and then you can play like lightning.

I believe you need to have good technice to be able to relax when playing fast. If you don't have good technice you will automatically tense up when pushing it.

Of course one will get tired if practising for a long time, but if you get tired after just a couple of scales or the like then you are NOT as relaxed as you should be.

The next question is: Should you always practise relaxed, or will pushing it/tense up a bit develop your technice faster and thus enabling you to relax and play faster later on?

I'm no expert, i don't know! I don't know which is the best practise method. I'm not always relaxed myself when playing, i often find myself a bit tense when playing technically advance stuff.
But if you are completely relaxed when playing, you will be able to play for a LOT longer before tirering that's for sure.

[bernhard]

The next question is: Should you always practise relaxed, or will pushing it/tense up a bit develop your technice faster and thus enabling you to relax and play faster later on?

Guys, you are not listening to xvimbi:

Staying "relaxed" does not apply to the body parts that are supposed to do work. It applies to those that are NOT supposed to do any work. Doing something fast for a long period of time requires power (strength), stamina, and excellent coordination (i.e technique, which means not wasting energy through superfluous movements). It's that simple! These three aspects will have to be maximized.

I agree whole heartedly. It is not about relaxation. It is about selective relaxation, or if you prefer it is about tensing/relaxing very fast, or to use other verbal description, it is about refreshing the muscles.

Finally - and I said this before, have a look here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1092645636;start=2

since there are so many muscles involved in complex finger movements, it is well possible to execute the same or similar movements using different groups of muscles. Playing long fast passages without fatigue (assuming of course that you have developed the necessary stamina) becomes a matter of switching between muscle groups. Easy to state, but by no means a trivial problem. I doubt that this can be taught. It requires lots of systematic investigation. However the fact that there are people out there who can do this, should spurn one on to keep investigating.

This reminds me of a comment by one of Chopin’s students who was very dissatisfied with Chopin’s pedagogical methods: “Chopin’s method consists of sitting at the second piano, playing like an angel and requesting that you do the same.”

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[nick]

Bernhard said:
Playing long fast passages without fatigue (assuming of course that you have developed the necessary stamina) becomes a matter of switching between muscle groups.

I don't follow this, since to play at such an incredible speed of say 190 for 195 notes HS, I wouldn't think there was a choice in muscles to use:only the more efficient, smallest muscles. Also, if one built up the necessary stamina, there would be no need to change muscle groups.  Maybe Chang's idea of 1.5 times goal speed is not possible on such long passages. I will give the 'building stamina idea' much more time.

I agree with everyone on the relaxed idea(only using appropriate muscles and not others). Seems obvious. What  I am working on is not playing any finger harder than the next at this rapid speed, which seems to interfere with max speed by using more energy on a finger than necessary. But even when the correct movement and muscles are used, it appears a building up of stamina is needed.
Nick