Starting to learn Jeux d'eau of Ravel

[faa2010]

I had tried before starting to learn Jeux d'eau of Ravel.  However, many things have happened in my life so I forgot it: work, practicing for a recital, work, English and French online lessons, work, etc.

Until now, the majority of the pieces I know by heart are between 4 or 5 of F. Chopin, and I can do sight reading but very slowly.

As I see it, I have to start from zero with that piece again, which doesn't make me worry in the least.

Could you give me some piano pieces I ought to learn before or tips in order to start learning it?

I will appreciate your ideas and suggestions.

[scottmcc]

you could always start with Medtner's Nightwind Sonata (op 25 #2).   

seriously, you're asking about one of the more technically challenging pieces in all of the literature, and you've definitely crossed over into the territory of "if you have to ask, you'll never know."

anyway, I'll pretend it's a valid question.  if you want to learn how to play ravel, he wrote a number of shorter and relatively easier pieces which will give you a sense of his style of writing.  two obvious suggestions would be the Sonatine and the Pavane pour un Infante Defunte.  both are still quite challenging pieces, but are nowhere near the difficulties you will find in Jeux d'eau. 

good luck or something.

[faa2010]

Sorry if I made this "useless" question. I only wanted some recommendations, specific exercises or other pieces that I ought to learn before starting to see this piece which is very, very beautiful.

[mike_lang]

anyway, I'll pretend it's a valid question.  

good luck or something.

How rude . . . You should know from being around this forum that everyone is at different stage, and at each stage ask different questions.  We get more specific as we progress, but that doesn't make broader questions invalid.

You could have just posted your third paragraph without all this "if you have to ask" nonsense.

Mike

[mike_lang]

I had tried before starting to learn Jeux d'eau of Ravel.  However, many things have happened in my life so I forgot it: work, practicing for a recital, work, English and French online lessons, work, etc.

Until now, the majority of the pieces I know by heart are between 4 or 5 of F. Chopin, and I can do sight reading but very slowly.

As I see it, I have to start from zero with that piece again, which doesn't make me worry in the least.

Could you give me some piano pieces I ought to learn before or tips in order to start learning it?

I will appreciate your ideas and suggestions.

I think Scott is right . . . the Sonatine is a nice choice as well.  Have you listened to it?  It has a very challenging third movement, and is overall a beautiful piece.

As far as style goes, if I were you, I would listen to Ravel.  His piano music, his piano trio, the violin sonata, the songs (some of which are very unusual!), his orchestrations (very colorful) . . .

I remember that Jeux d'eau was, perhaps unfortunately, the first piece I played by Ravel.  The second was "Oiseaux tristes," from "Miroirs," and I wish it had been the first, since it was much easier.  My third was the "Menuet" from "Le Tombeau de Couperin," which is also very nice.  I don't see any reason not to play a few of these shorter, yet equally beautiful selections from his suites, while perhaps still working section by section through "Jeux d'eau."

As for practicing "Jeux d'eau," section by section is the way to begin.  You might even number all the phrases, or at least delineate them, in order to find some more manageable chunks (this is what I do with a new piece).  Why don't you keep this thread going, updating us as you go and asking more questions, and maybe even posting some video or audio "updates?"

The last thing I want to ask, and perhaps it should have been the first, is: What did your teacher advise?

All the best,
Mike

[scottmcc]

How rude . . . You should know from being around this forum that everyone is at different stage, and at each stage ask different questions.  We get more specific as we progress, but that doesn't make broader questions invalid.

You could have just posted your third paragraph without all this "if you have to ask" nonsense.

Mike

you're right, I was rude, and I apologize.

however, this forum has been deluged with questions of this nature lately, and the answer is always the same: ask your teacher, try some of that composer's easier works, practice scales/arpeggios, give up.

maybe i'm atypical, but I can tell within about a second of looking at this score or listening to a recording that this piece is exceptionally challenging.  I for one will freely admit that I will never be able to play it--I'm just not that good.  and because it is so tough, there are certain prerequisites that one should have a grasp of, before even asking the question.  for instance, if I were a student of English as a second language, I wouldn't make the first book i read Dickens' "A Tale of Two Cities," and before I approached a big, complicated book like that you'd expect I'd have some foundation of proficiency in the language.  or if I were a novice carpenter, you would expect that I wouldn't start with a skyscraper.

hopefully my frustration is more clear now.  as I said before, I apologize for taking it out on you.

[nanabush]

I'd agree 100% with the Sonatine.  I prepared that for my ARCT a few years ago, and I loved learning it the entire way through. 

The coordination in the first movement was one of those 'holy crap, how do I play this so fast and quiet!!' parts, and alone helped SO much with letting me get a completely different tone on the piano.

The second movement has a lot of jazzy chords, big stretches, and also requires a refined touch to voice them properly.  Great for identifying complex harmonies (I kind of relate this to an easier version of 'Le Gibet').

The third movement has a lot of fast technical passages; it's so tightly knit structurally, but offers such a variety of things to play (change of meters, very interesting chords, fun fast passages to name a few) that as you work on it, it's impossible to be bored.

Jeux d'Eau right of the bat might be too tough - it's got some cadenzas that are harder than some of Liszt's (I was working on Un Sospiro for the same exam, and tried Jeux d'Eau for fun, and those damned passages were MUCH tougher to read and coordinate at the time).  It also has some really strange harmony that you might not be used to right away.  The technique in some of the quiet passages is extreme (the Sonatine has very similar moments, but again is generally easier, so it would give you a chance to get used to his writing).

---

Try comparing it to someone whose first Debussy they want to play is 'Feux d'Artifice'.  They MAY have played pieces that tough, but if they haven't played any easier Debussy pieces before, they won't have a clue what to expect technically or musically.  If they had a few of the easier Preludes done first, maybe the Arabesques, or a piece from Children's corner, they will be exposed to his style a bit more.

[faa2010]

I think Scott is right . . . the Sonatine is a nice choice as well.  Have you listened to it?  It has a very challenging third movement, and is overall a beautiful piece.

As far as style goes, if I were you, I would listen to Ravel.  His piano music, his piano trio, the violin sonata, the songs (some of which are very unusual!), his orchestrations (very colorful) . . .

I remember that Jeux d'eau was, perhaps unfortunately, the first piece I played by Ravel.  The second was "Oiseaux tristes," from "Miroirs," and I wish it had been the first, since it was much easier.  My third was the "Menuet" from "Le Tombeau de Couperin," which is also very nice.  I don't see any reason not to play a few of these shorter, yet equally beautiful selections from his suites, while perhaps still working section by section through "Jeux d'eau."

As for practicing "Jeux d'eau," section by section is the way to begin.  You might even number all the phrases, or at least delineate them, in order to find some more manageable chunks (this is what I do with a new piece).  Why don't you keep this thread going, updating us as you go and asking more questions, and maybe even posting some video or audio "updates?"

The last thing I want to ask, and perhaps it should have been the first, is: What did your teacher advise?

All the best,
Mike

I still haven't told my teacher about it, right now, we still are following the 3rd book of Thompson. I hope to tell her the next time I have class with her.

I have already listened Oiseaux Tristes, and it sounds quite cool, so it is a good idea to start learning this piece before.

What I know from Ravel is his famous Bolero and Miroirs.

Thanks for telling me your experience with Ravel.

[mike_lang]

I still haven't told my teacher about it, right now, we still are following the 3rd book of Thompson. I hope to tell her the next time I have class with her.

I have already listened Oiseaux Tristes, and it sounds quite cool, so it is a good idea to start learning this piece before.

What I know from Ravel is his famous Bolero and Miroirs.

Thanks for telling me your experience with Ravel.

I may be repeating the sentiments of some others, but having been through the Thompson series myself, it seems "Jeux d'eau" is quite a leap, actually . . .

[faa2010]

I may be repeating the sentiments of some others, but having been through the Thompson series myself, it seems "Jeux d'eau" is quite a leap, actually . . .

What about learning first "Oiseaux Tristes" first?, will it be fine if I start with that piece?, and will there be a problem if I start learning section by section the piece?

[mike_lang]

What about learning first "Oiseaux Tristes" first?, will it be fine if I start with that piece?, and will there be a problem if I start learning section by section the piece?

You can do as you like, but I am just pointing out that the increase in technical complexities from John Thompson's series to "Jeux d'eau" is exponential.  Something along the lines of "Oiseaux Tristes sounds like a better choice at this stage, in my opinion.

[scottmcc]

hmmm...perhaps I was on to something earlier, yes?

seriously though, someone should really make a sticky for the student's corner with advice for how to approach really difficult music.  it would cut down on the clutter.

[mike_lang]

hmmm...perhaps I was on to something earlier, yes?

Certainly! I was averse to how you said it.