Burgmüller, Czerny, Hanon

[alsimon]

In my quest for the appropriate study collection I came upon this series of 3 books:

Burgmuller, Czerny & Hanon: Book 1: 32 Piano Studies Selected for Technique and Musicality by Ingrid Jacobson Clarfield
 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Burgmuller-Czerny-Hanon-Technique-Musicality/dp/0739020307/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308205597&sr=1-1

Does anyone have experience with this collection? What are your opinions about this collection?

Your input is greatly appreciated.

Regards
Al

[mcdiddy1]

You should do a search on the forum for thread related to those topics. Hanon is the most controversial  of three because it is based on a false premise of creating independence in the fingers (anatomically impossible) and the negative effects of practicing technique outside of a musical context. Czerny is more accepted and while it reinforces a technique there is a over emphasis on just one technique rather than a variety other literature provide. Burgmuller is not controversial and fairly accepted with the only knock against it being the quality of musical content as the music is fairly simple and uncomplex.

So it depends on where your level is. If you need to work on hand coordination and finger dexterity but want an exercise where the music is repetitive and predictable then Hanon may be appropriate for you( with a good teacher who knows the correct movement and avoidance of bad habits). If you want to prepare for playing more advance pieces such as Beethoven Sonatas, Mozart compositions and such , a little Czerny may be for you. If you are an intermediate players and looking for something light, somewhat simple to spring board you in to more advance material Burgmuller. Depends on what your goals are.

[alsimon]

I should have been a little bit more specific on my goals.

I am a 40+ year old beginner who has started piano several months ago after having played classical guitar for over 30 years. I'm playing Beethoven's Für Elise and Mozart's Fantasia in d-minor, pieces I love and that motivate me to return to them frequently. Concerning the Mozart Fantasia, I must admit that I will go back to it often whereas Für Elise is going quite well musically and technically speaking (B and C sections included).

I would like to work my way through a set of technical studies, études so as to give me a solid technical foundation. But these études must be musically interesting, this is very important for me. I have tried Czerny's op 599 (pedagogically founded but musically void) and Burgmüller (not very stimulating except a few pieces).

So my question is if the Clarfield collection of chosen pieces is a useful tool.

Greets
Al

[leonbloy]

I am a 40+ year old beginner who has started piano several months ago after having played classical guitar for over 30 years.

Same here, 44 and classical guitar (amateur) player since childhood, self learning a little of piano since two years ago.

From my very limited experience, I tend to agree with the majority, in the critical views towards Hanon. I'm going through Burgmüller (op 100), and I like it; adequate difficulty level for me, and musically nice and simple. If you, like me, know the basics of musical theory,  specially the classical-popular schema ("Common practice period") and you need to play music understanding it in the most elementary  sense (a melodic line over a sequence of chords, mostly), I can recommend it. For a little more difficult studies, I'd suggest Heller (op 45 /46, search in the forum). And for more relaxing easy-popular playing (perhaps too easy or popular for some), you can try Martha Mier.

For what I see, the book you are insterested on have only some pieces from Burgmüller op 109, which is a more advanced level.  https://books.google.com/books?id=4lNSmRkIfu8C&printsec=frontcover

[slane]

I saw this book in  music store the other day. Picked it up and put it back again.
I don't like playing music that isn't meant to be performed. I think that's a rule of Changs in his E-book. Or maybe I am just lazy.
However, I picked up bergmuller op 100 for $2 at the local book co-op and those pieces are very pretty. Perhaps he was inspired by Chopin, who created the "etude as art form" stye. I'm learning the courante limpide.
All that music is available from imslp so you could print it out and see if its useful to you without much of an investment. But I recommend burgmuller op 100.

[rmbarbosa]

You may wish to follow another way. Instead of play exercises, search and choose a piece you like and may offer to you a "gain" of technique. For example: if you wish to run scales, you have Mozart sonata KV 545 in C Major, 1º movement. Here, you may also train harps. If you wish to train thirds, you have, for example, Mozart Variations "La belle Françoise". If you desire to develop
hands coordination, dexterity, touch and tone, you may try (I almost will say, you must try Two voices Bach inventions (wich will give you musical knowlege, too). These are only examples, you may choose what you wish. So, instead of "mechanical", you are playing good music and gaining sensibility and time. If possible, avoid those pieces played by everybody, stile "fur elise", "moonlight", etc... (but this is only a personal opinion). Before playing something, see what and where are  specific dificulties and try to play this bar ou these few bars untill you play them well. But only <> 20 minutes for each kind of dificulty. Then, stop and "sleep". Next day, you`ll see you have a gain. This way, you dont loose your time with exercises, you are "making" allways music. Best wishes - Rui

[rmbarbosa]

Slane,
You are not lazy. What you say is true. Mr. Chang and the great Bernhard say exactly the same.
Best wishes
Rui

[alsimon]

Thanks so far for your replies. The real problem I think is this: if you have limited time, you do definitely not want to spend it with non-musical, mechanical only material.

@Rui: I like your approach. Could you elaborate on that.

greets
Al

[slane]

Rui's idea is a great one. I read in a "Genius in the family" that barenboim  preferred to learn his technique from "real" music too.
There could be a whole thread on the subject. "Please list real music for technique, technique taught, level of difficulty.
Lately I've been learning Bach's little prelude BWV 927 which is a horrible terrific workout for the right little finger and you have to get it all sounding nice and even to sound good too.

[brogers70]

Same here, 44 and classical guitar (amateur) player since childhood, self learning a little of piano since two years ago.

Wow, that makes three of us former classical guitarists, learning piano as adults. What made you guys switch?

I love the guitar, and I was quite good at it, but I ended up with two problems. First, the repertoire has some big holes; there's plenty of Bach, though playing a fugue on the guitar is tough, and I only ever managed a couple, but there's a huge gap in the mainstream classical and romantic period. Sor is nice, but can't compare to Haydn, Mozart, or Beethoven. And while you do have the Spanish late romantics, there's nothing like Schubert or Brahms. Second, the guitar is just plain harder to play. On the piano all the notes are just sitting there, waiting to be played. Even as an adult beginner, I can play Bach fugues way more easily on the piano than on the guitar. And finally, you can make so much more noise on the piano.

To get to the original question about exercises, though. I played Hanon like a maniac for the first couple of years, and I think it did me no good whatsoever. Scales and arpeggios definitely help, but only if you think about what you are doing while you play them. Mindless drill just alenates your family.There are some good posts here from Bernhard about learning scales. I personally find Czerny horribly boring; there's plenty of good music that will develop the same techniques, Bach, Scarlatti, Clementi, easier pieces by Hayden and Mozart. Burgmuller is marginally less boring than Czerny, but life is short, why not play technically appropriate music written by the greats?

[alsimon]

I  really like the idea of progressing through pieces of real music and not boring technical only material. It is a great motivation to work for days and weeks on beautiful music rather than strange sounding, void technical patterns. When you have reached a certain age, you get more conscious about time and want to spend it right.

I have looked more closely at Mozart's "Sonata facile in C KV 545". I totally agree with Rui. The first movement would be very helpful for scale work, Alberti basses, etc. (By the way Mozart must have had a keen sense of humor to call it "facile", but it was probably business as usual.)

How about posting a list of musically beautiful pieces that also improve technique (around grade 3 to around 6)?

Please post your recommendations.

Greets
Al

[brogers70]

Al,

Here are links to a couple of threads. The first one has a lot of suggestions for relatively easier  but beautiful pieces (as you will learn, however, you can always count on some wise guy to drop in "La Tarantella" or something like that in a list of "easier" pieces). The second is on Scarlatti. Somewhere down in the thread Bernhard gives good descriptions of the sonatas and the technical skills which they develop. Have a search for old posts by Bernhard - many of them are really helpful.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7008.0.html
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2339.msg20064.html


Bill

[aintgotnorhythm]

I would suggest Bach 2 part invention no 13, also Antonio Soler Sonata 7 in C Major (scales, thirds, left hand over, there is a version on youtube where you can follow the sheet music along), Scarlatti sonata in e minor k198, also the Heller etudes

[rmbarbosa]

The approach isnt mine  I learned all those ideas in mr. Chang book and in Bernhard posts. And I`m very grateful to both.
Alsimon, I sent to you a personal mail. Please have a look.
Rui

[alsimon]

Hello Rui,

I have started to read Chang's book, but was unable to continue after 20 pages due to the chaotic layout and narcissistic attitude. I greatly admire Bernhard's posts, but sometimes his theory on practice seems to good to be true.

greets Al

[rmbarbosa]

But it is true, believe me.
Rui

[slane]

Amongst the crazy narcissism and kooky layout is a great deal of helpful information.
The index is quite useful for finding what you need to know.
You'll find a lot of his information is not all that radical when you read other books on musicianship but I never did understand parallel sets.
And its a free resource made with a true philanthropic passion. I have to admire it, but I keep the salt canister handy in case I need a pinch.

[alsimon]

Then I'll give Chang one more try 


@ Rui: I sent you a pm.

Greets
Al

[oxy60]

I've seen those collections, including ones published before the war. My wife had one left over that she leaned from as a child during the postwar period.

What I noticed was that they all were stingy with the masters. Today, worse than then.

When I found this site I paid for full access right away because here I can choose known pieces by known composers at any level I wish.  As an added bonus there are recordings of many of them so you can get an "idea" of what you have selected.

Before I hit the print button I put my portable on the console and play a little from the PDF.

This site is one of the best places for classical piano players that I know of.

[rmbarbosa]

Slane. Parallel sets are very easy and very good to play trills and scales. The idea is like this: if you play 2 notes simultaneously, for example C and D, the time you spend going from C to D is zero. So, you are going from C to D with an infinite speed, OK? Now, if you lift up one finger a little, for example if you lift up the finger that plays the D, when you atack the 2 notes, C is played first and, almost immediately, D follows C. So, you go from infinite speed to a bit slower speed. And, to our brain, it is easier to diminish speed than to increment speed. This seems pure theory, but it is not.
I dont know how to put here a little video, to show how to play PS. But I`m going to ask one of my sons to record a little demonstration and will sent to you, ok?
Rui

[leonbloy]

Now, if you lift up one finger a little, for example if you lift up the finger that plays the D, when you atack the 2 notes, C is played first and, almost immediately, D follows C. So, you go from infinite speed to a bit slower speed. And, to our brain, it is easier to diminish speed than to increment speed. This seems pure theory, but it is not.

It always sound a little unreallistic to me, because the idea seems only applicable to a short appoggiatura, or at most a single group of a few notes (not more than one note by finger), but not applicable to, say, a trill.

[slane]

Thanks Rui, I'd be interested to see that!
I watched chang's video of TO TU but couldn't get it until I slowed it right down in VLC player. then I realized I'd seen lots of good pianists playing that way.

[brogers70]

It always sound a little unreallistic to me, because the idea seems only applicable to a short appoggiatura, or at most a single group of a few notes (not more than one note by finger), but not applicable to, say, a trill.

Actually, I find it a very good way to practice trills. Start C-D simultaneously, then very quick C-D and D-C, so far so good. Then try a quick C-D-C and a quick D-C-D. When you can do those over and over again, relaxed, try C-D-C-D and D-C-D-C. Once you get to 6 or seven repetitions you'll start to feel the sensation of the key springing back up under your finger and you play with how to make the reps as fast as possible with as little effort. The same sort of approach can work with a continuous Alberti bass.

[alsimon]

Al,

Here are links to a couple of threads. The first one has a lot of suggestions for relatively easier  but beautiful pieces (as you will learn, however, you can always count on some wise guy to drop in "La Tarantella" or something like that in a list of "easier" pieces). The second is on Scarlatti. Somewhere down in the thread Bernhard gives good descriptions of the sonatas and the technical skills which they develop. Have a search for old posts by Bernhard - many of them are really helpful.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7008.0.html
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2339.msg20064.html


Bill

Bill,

Thanks for posting the links. I always loved the Scarlatti Sonatas, especially the brilliant complete recording by Scoot Ross (34 cds).

[rmbarbosa]

Leonbloy
PS are useful and aplicable for trills, Alberti, scales, harps... without PS it`s very dificult to attain speed.
Please have a look to mr. Chang book and, if you wish or need, try them.
Best wishes

[leonbloy]

Leonbloy
PS are useful and aplicable for trills, Alberti, scales, harps... without PS it`s very dificult to attain speed.
Please have a look to mr. Chang book and, if you wish or need, try them.
Best wishes

Thanks, I'll try it. I had saw that book some time ago, but only a glance.
Ironically, I try Google now, and I land on this page from a piano teacher:

https://www.elisemoreau.com/musical-signs-notation/the-art-and-physics-of-mastering-the-trill/

"If the first two notes are not started properly, learning the trill will become a very difficult task..."

"the delay between the successive fingers is called the phase angle..."

I had good textual memory, I was sure to have read that before.
And, yes, it's copy-pasted from Chang's book:  

https://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.11
https://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.3.1

What a shame - specially considering that Mr. Chang puts his book freely on line, and that she doesn't even mention his name on her site. I cannot understand this...