What are the chances of becoming a concert pianist?

[hannah9]

So... I am in love with the piano and I am also in love with piano concertos I am 15 and doing my grade 8...... my question is - is there a huge competition to be a concert pianist? and is there any hope of me ever getting there? It's just I cannot think of anything else I'd like to do with my life. I'm not narrow minded, but nothing else really sounds as great

[m1469]

If you become one, 100%

[richard black]

If by 'concert pianist' you mean someone who earns a living as a solo piano performer, the odds are very, very slim. My estimate is that the world market for full-time solo pianists is about 4 or 5 a year. WORLD market. So yes, the is competition, big time. If you take a more relaxed interpretation of the term to include everyone who does a few professional concerts from time to time (and teaches or accompanies opera rehearsals or whatever the rest of the time) then the odds are very much better. It's still a tough one to get into, but hundreds rather than single figures make it every year.

[Bob]

If you become one, 100%

Can't argue with that.  Haha.


Ditto on the very, very slim chances.  Your competition is already doing it.  Your competition (although they're probably not competing with you... They're much, much better...) already started when they were three or four and played concertos with symphonies before they reached a double digit age.  They're probably already in a pre-Julliard school or on that track now.

[mike_lang]

How about a performing classical musician, on the other hand? :-)

[mlbbaseball]

I'm just looking at your signature, and I don't know how you are playing Rach 3 when your other pieces are Nocturne in c sharp minor, a Beethoven Rondo, and the Flight of the Bumblebee.

[thalbergmad]

I have a feeling the competition is greater than ever and the chances are slim, but that should not deter you from trying.

15 is not a particularly early age to be taking your Grade 8 and the World no doubt has pianists younger than you that already have all the Chopin Etudes and considerable Beethoven in their rep.

Only a couple of days ago, a stunning Brahms Rhapsody played by a 13 year old was posted here, so this gives you an idea of what you are up against.

The overwhelming majority of forum members here are not concert pianists, but many have other music related careers, many are teachers, some are composers and many are 3rd rate hacks like me, that still get pleasure from playing the piano.

If you don't make it, it is not exactly "the end".

Thal

[oxy60]

Yes to everything written above.

Plus where you are located is also important. You need to be somewhere with a large classical music audience willing to go out of their houses, buy a ticket and enjoy a concert (without some diversion/gimmick to lure them).

Next and maybe more important is artist management. While you are preparing concerts someone needs to be setting up the concerts.

I know of wonderful artists who went nowhere, were never heard because of the lack of a good agent.

[nanabush]

Stick with it.  Being a concert pianist isn't the only way to go with classical music.  It's one hell of a goal to strive for, but in doing so you'll no doubt come across tons of opportunity along the way.  A lot of people say "you can just go and teach music" as if it's like a cop-out or like a career for people who didn't make it, but teaching is fun as hell in my opinion, and you actually get to interact with people  rather than sitting in seclusion 8 hours a day lol (I'm only joking, but trying to show that there are other routes than being a full time concert pianist)

[dahmin]

Stick with it.  Being a concert pianist isn't the only way to go with classical music.  It's one hell of a goal to strive for, but in doing so you'll no doubt come across tons of opportunity along the way.  A lot of people say "you can just go and teach music" as if it's like a cop-out or like a career for people who didn't make it, but teaching is fun as hell in my opinion, and you actually get to interact with people  rather than sitting in seclusion 8 hours a day lol (I'm only joking, but trying to show that there are other routes than being a full time concert pianist)

I also loath the notion that others may consider teaching is the reflection of failing to become a concert pianist.

Sharing what you know is great fun and rewarding in my opinion.

[pianovlad1996]

Hello!
First....What? Rach 3 at 15 years? You don't have the requiered maturity... I am 15 years old too and I started piano at 5 years and I don't even think to play the Rach 3. It's a huge challenge even for the great pianists like Horowitz, Berezovsky, Argerich and others. I played Chopin 1 but it was a lot easier than Rach 3.There are many concertos that are suitable for our age. So, if you want to become a concert pianist don't play the most difficult concertos and pieces. Play something for your age like Chopin Scherzos,Polonaises,Ballades,Nocturnes or if you like so much Rachmaninoff play his Etude-Tableaux,Preludes, Musical moments etc. I think that playing a hard piece well is better than playing one of the hardest in the standard repertoire horrible. I suggest you to enter (if it's possible) a internationally competition and maybe then you can become a concert pianist.
PS:Watch "Shine" and then decide if you are ready to play the Rach 3. 

[m1469]

Well, I'll tell you what, I am on the fence myself.  Here is a good example of why I am considering not studying or playing anymore, and really why anybody should consider it.  First of all, she's slightly younger than I.  She obviously is having fun, but she's obviously taking lessons, too.  Plus, she's already on YouTube  :-.  I just a few days got on YouTube and anyway, this girl has *way* more views on her video than I do ... I really don't know that I'll ever catch up.  Plus, I mean, even if I wasn't myself (which, I am), if I were, say, a little tinier baby who didn't play yet, I shouldn't bother starting since this girl got there first.  That goes for everybody.  If somebody older than you has done it or is already doing it, then don't even try because they got there first.  That means even if it was 20, 50, 100 years ago.  If somebody younger than you is doing it, just quit because younger is better.  Whoever got there first in any case, is the winner.

However, I have a little hope because I noticed I might be able to play faster than her ... hmm .. that's a good reason to try.  Isn't it?  I *might* be able to play more correctly the notes than her ... also a good reason to try.  So, I guess I feel I have a little hope, yet.  Maybe everybody does because just so long, I guess, that somebody can be played faster or more note-perfect, maybe there's still slightly a little hope?  I am not sure though.  So, I am always hoping that somebody misses even just one note in a piece, or that they don't play it as fast as humanly possible, because then I'll just practice really, super hard, and maybe I'll play it more notes and even faster  .  And then, perhaps I will be the champion  .

[m1469]

Oh, wait.  I just found the reason that other girl above should quit  :-.  Shucks.  Now I should double quit because two people are the winners over me (but one is the winner over the other).  I have a suspicion that there are more winners above me, too  .  And, would you like to know what?  I noticed that there is always somebody accomplishing something that nobody else in the world is accomplishing or has ever accomplished  .  Hey, I'm just this normal person  .  But, the other day I read on Lola's biography that she is considered to have a technical ease that has not been seen for decades  .  And, just today, I saw a YouTube of a little baby LittleTune ... wait ... I mean, a 4-yr. old child in Thailand who is a painter AND a violinist  !!  Can you believe that?  He is considered the youngest person in the entire. world. to have done whatever it is that he is considered the youngest person for ever to do this thing!  Yikes!  

Here, let me show you:

I really wish I was like those people  .  But, I'm not  .

[m1469]

And did you know that Richter is younger than all those other people, actually?  Because he came first and he won.  But, wait, Liszt is younger than Richter.  Phweww ... this is difficult.  I mean, I thought that the Van Cliburn winners were the best, but now I think maybe Lola is the winner.  Or wait, maybe these younger people are.  But wait ... I don't know.  I'm so confused   ... I know, I mean, I forgot, it's whoever is the fastest who is the winner.  But, wait, maybe the fastest AND the youngest?  Is that Liszt?  Richter?  Who?  These other littles?  me?  I know!  I think I'll just do something in the world that nobody else has. ever. done. before.  hmmm ... what is that?  

[faa2010]

You know, it's the same idea of why I should quit, that younger people are more talented and have more chances to call the attention and enter to a good music school.

It's frustrating that the others can "outshine" you in what you like, specially if they are younger, which can make you quite depressed and quit easily. Or if others gave you a lot of destructive criticism, to put you in such a depressive state that you won't play ever again. Those kind of things can affect you to a certain degree.

Nevertheless, that depends on two things:

-what is the most important thing to you: playing the piano or wanting to receive only prizes and praises for playing.

-at which degree do you want to improve.

Playing piano is the same as other activites like painting, singing, playing sports, etc.  Some can excel in short time, others need to work hard, one can be good in some issues while others can easily surpass him or her in others.

One can lack the abilities required in a concert pianist while at the same time he or she can have an unlimited patience and calm to be a piano teacher, while other can be a great concert pianist despite not winning piano competitions or he or she doesn't have enough patience with piano students.

Another issue to comment is that maybe one was borned with the talent or ability or comes from a family of musicians, but that doesn't mean that he or she will become a pianist, that depends on other issues that will be developed during one's life.

[healdie]

As said the competition is extremely high, I mean more than you can imagine although I do believe that the thread has been mutated into a discussion on age, which although is relevant to an extent is the not the only deciding factor on who becomes a concert pianist.

An old college tutor of mine told us it is very possible to make a career out of music you just have to be realistic and know your own abilities, I know i could never be a concert pianist and I have never thought otherwise I just don't have that ability, but I do get plenty of work with music weather it be Arranging, playing rehearsal piano for Opera/theatre companies, or supporting popular musicians and as stated teaching, in fact I would much rather be a university lecturer than a performer I would quite like to run a department and lecture theory (my main area of passion)

So i guess what I'm saying is it will be phenomenally tough, but don't just quit because there is someone younger and better, I mean both Wagner and Berlioz did not start studying music until their late teens and I know they weren't great players but they have changed music more than nearly every performer to date, so just be realistic and don't give up know your limits and your abilities

[lostinidlewonder]

Before I started out taking piano as a professional I wanted to rely completely on a performance career path. After having the privilege to gain personal insight into a full time international concerting pianists life I started to change my mind about full time performance. Ignoring all of the music ability you need and management connections you need to make I would like to explore the emotional issues and non piano skills you would need to deal with which I think separate people from choosing to be full time concerting pianists many more times than any other issue.

If you are a nomadic person who never likes to stay in one place then a full time concerting life is for you. You simply cannot do concerts in one place for your whole life you need to travel and visit many different places if you want to have a constant income and hit larger concert venues. Often you will need to live out of your suitcase as you travel and stay in places often only for a brief moment before many hours travel to another destination. Relationship wise this separates you from your family and friends, you can't have your loved ones travel around with you (or even ask that of them!). This also means that you may only have a couple of months or so at home to spend with your family each year.

The physical toll that intense concerting can cause is quite frightening. You push your body/mind to its limitations dealing with concert preparation (management/marketing and playing practice/presentation) You need to wake up early and sleep late to get everything done and this is constant throughout your career. It is a high stress level job full time concerting, to get your playing practice in you need to wake up early as soon as you are done with your practice you need to get all the aspects of concert preparations sorted out. Things like, you may have to prepare a full concerto within a few weeks, or technical staff have quit or certain gear have malfunctioned, certain vips can't make it to a dinner etc need to fit that into your schedule, unexpected requirements constantly add to your work load.

Full time concerting work is pretty much 24 7 work. You are constantly on call music wise and concert management wise. You need to ensure yourself that everything is managed correctly relying on a manager is quite risky since if you have a lesser manager you will never get anywhere, it is simply essential that you have a top class manager that works well with you if you are a full time concert pianist (you just wont have the time personally to do the much of the "behind the scenes" work of concert preparations and will rely on this person to solve that for you).

All concerting pianists should make a strong effort to have good relations with important people (concert staff, media, local government, head of different social groups etc)  and this means taking them for lunch or dinner or something away from the work scene to build a good relation with them. When you build a strong team that you know your concerts will work a lot more easily, more opportunities open up to make things better. For example I took the manager of the concert hall out for a coffee and we discussed about other events that where on at the concert hall and she mentioned to me about how she does a talk on the local radio station about local events. I asked her if she thought if it would be a good idea if during her radio time I talk on there as well and she thought it was a great idea. This is one example from a horde, small things like that can make your path a lot easier.

If you start concerting in multiple venues you will find out that you will always need to "get to know" the stage management and staff (technicians, publication, box office etc). You need to have a vision as to what you want your concerts to look like, you have a new team at your disposal at each new location and believe me it is not always a professional one! You need to ensure that you get what you want without stepping on toes, angry team members are not a good thing. I befriended a lot of stage staff and many of them told me stories about some famous concert pianists they dealt with and how they can be so "up themselves" and peculiar sometimes. Always show your gratitude to your stage staff after a show (a carton of beer or whatever ) if they did their job well, they will never forget you and the next time you return setting up the concert will be a breeze.

I can go on and on about what happens for concert preparations but what you see is that you really have to be a part of the creation of a concert, every aspect of it. You should have a personal interested in concert creation and be interested in how it works and how you can control parts of it. You cannot just simply hope to set up a repertoire, hire a hall and expect it to fill up. How you play means nothing to the public, you need to draw them to your event, thus marketing skills are essential. You cannot pay a manager and a horde of other people to do it all for you because of the money side to things.

You also need to work out a yearly travel route and then hit those spots again the following year with new repertoire. Sure you can be a world famous concert pianist and get concerts given to you all over the place for the rest of your life, but this represents such a microscopic % of professional pianists it is almost irrelevant to speak about it even on a piano forum! And you even see the great stars rise up have a few years of concerts then sink back into obscurity, that is not to say they invested their money well and are now living happily, but the point remains they no longer really make a living off concerting (even though their assets and interest gain from them came from that). To have a lifetime of concerting you really need to set a travel route yourself, who is to say you cannot make different routes, but you will find out if you return to places you have been to, selling tickets is a whole lot easier especially if your product impressed them the first time.

This brings up another point about your "product". What is your concert presentation like? These days you need to speak to your audience so an importance is placed on a soloist these days to have good public speaking/relation skills. Through your words, piano works and stage presentation you need to impress your audience and entertain them. You really need to give your audience knowledge about piano music, empower them, talk about interesting stories about the composer you are playing, something relevant about the piece, images about the piece etc. Piano music is unspoken with words so it is our responsibility to make the audience understand what they are listening to.

How you package all of this is very important. I am sure you have listened to some people speak in public and fallen asleep where some just grab your attention and never let go. You want to learn how to speak well in public and this may be an impossible task for most pianists but certainly not something you cannot go and learn and craft if you totally fail at it.
I can personally attest to the importance of speaking to your audience as I have had countless people who come up and tell me how much more they enjoy a concert once they are given more knowledge about the piece and composer. It even went so far in one concert which I thought I didn't play my best in, numerous people said they enjoyed it more so than a famous pianist who had visited months before because I spoke to the audience and told them something that empowered them to give new meaning to the pieces they observed. They had a look of excitement in their eyes as the music meant something new to them, really special stuff which makes me think that how you actually play is not always so important for the audience (but of course for us performers it is of utmost importance!) so long you pull it off and do a good job.


There is a 100% chance of you making a partial living off concerting but if you can market yourself effectively and have a good product you could make a more steady income. Who is to say that you couldn't make a living generally playing simple piano pieces? There are certainly one world famous pianist I can think of who plays quite simple music! Who is to say you need to play mostly complicated pieces to draw people to listen to you? In fact if you play predominantly overly complex music often the concert hall will may be quite bare with your 2nd concert even with good marketing.

People do not go to concerts to listen to the most difficult piece or the best interpretation of a piece they have ever heard, they are after being entertained, being taken away from the world for a moment and drawn into a world of music and indeed the world of music is a vast place. As performers we must package only snippets of the musical world into a nice neat tight package which entertains the audience and empowers them with knowledge and elevated appreciation to music (of course if you are a highly experienced music buff you may not learn anything new but at least you will confirm some wonderful ideas which should be pleasing to be reminded of). You need to play your instrument well of course but this is only one part, what is more important is how well you connect with your audience and how well you deal with concert preparations and concert staff/public relations and these things are most at failure with the aspiring concerting musician.

[oxy60]

That was extremely well written and very insightful. I can attest to the truth.

One thing that caught my eye was the talking to the audience. I haven't been to a piano recital/concert in 40 years because I live in a small market town for classical music and smaller market for piano. When I was able to go to concerts it would have really enhanced the experience for the artist to say a few words. Back then the concert goer was expected to know all about the pieces.

[faa2010]

lostinidlewonder, please accept my respect, you have brought into light what is required as a pianist plus the commercial issues for becoming a well-known concert pianist.

What terrified me most of what you wrote, was the deadline issue, when one has a short limited time to get ready for the showtime.

What you reminded me and I am deeply and very grateful with you is that it's not necessary to learn the most complicated piano pieces to show both the others and yourself your improvement and skills.

[lostinidlewonder]

One thing that caught my eye was the talking to the audience. ....When I was able to go to concerts it would have really enhanced the experience for the artist to say a few words. Back then the concert goer was expected to know all about the pieces.

I am still surprised when I do concerts and meet people after the event who tell me that they have never heard about the things I talked about and it made their listening experience all the lot more enjoyable. However it is becoming more and more the norm with solo concerts these days to speak to the audience, you will also tend to find with orchestras these days the conductor or someone else will say a few words before the music begins. I listen to classical radio station almost every day and often catch concerts around the world where  someone is talking a little bit about the composer and piece. It just makes the presentation "complete", a full package of entertainment and learning.

I hope that most soloists don't want to be thought of as merely a "Curator of fine art", you know someone who just comes out and displays all these wonderful art work but says nothing at all about the works or composer, you just have to stand and look at it and be impressed. I go to art galleries and look totally perplexed at what some people consider art, then I catch a glimpse of someone who are really studying this abstract art at all angles and distances with such great wonder, I wonder what I am missing out on! I am certain that many people view piano music the same way, so as performers we should feel it our duty to try and ensure ALL the audience are "on board" with what the music is on about, we should remove some mysteries for them. From my experience the general concert goer appreciates it a great deal.

I haven't been to a piano recital/concert in 40 years because I live in a small market town for classical music and smaller market for piano.

You have hit on a point which is extremely exciting and full of opportunity for performers. I have done concerts in Australia where the population of the entire town is less than 200. But do you know that about 90% of the entire town turned up to the concert event? From my experience these towns are literally dying for something to happen in town, it doesn't really matter what it is if something happens the entire town is there. My uncle owned a hotel in Williams, West Australia which also acted as the local bar and restaurant, the only one in town, everyone came there for food, it was as busy as a popular place in a main city. This totally surprised me the first time I witnessed it. I was in the middle of nowhere but all the people come here! The power of monopoly is very obvious in small towns.

For aspiring concert musicians they should be encouraged to perform in small distant towns. You will find advertising in these areas is very easy and simplified, you will gain great knowledge about how creating a concert works. You should get to know the community you want to play in, go to social clubs, schools and play for free etc. The cost of hiring a hall is often next to nothing and you will fill the hall easily if you spent time advertising your event in town. Basically you need to send out your intention of doing a concert in a small town, send that info to who needs to hear about it in that town, then ensure that it is put on the newsletter or paper that goes around that town, this should be done at least a month before you arrive so people have some warning of your arrival. Then when you arrive you should spend at least a couple of days there to get to know the community. When you return the 2nd time you do not have to invest such time but you may find it difficult if some of them ask you to visit the next time you return. This investment may cost you a little bit of money but if you intend to hit the same place again it will be well worth it. Even if you do not intent to return at least you will learn a great deal about how to deal with people and how to organize a concert event, tools which will serve you well in more expensive larger city concert projects.

I really find doing concerts in small towns hundreds of times easier than doing it in larger cities. Your chances of success are much greater. Something non concert related but certainly very amusing for me was when I visited a place called Kalbarri in West Australia for my cousins wedding, it is not really a tiny town but about 7 hours drive from Perth city at least. I visited a popular seafood restaurant there and noticed an upright piano in the corner. I started to play it and the manager who was cooking the meals shouted over to me to keep playing and play louder. He then gave my meal for free and offered me to come back and play the next night for more free food Although I had to leave the following day I told him I would be happy to play for my food!

There is just so much more attention to things in smaller towns. In larger towns people are so busy and life is so quick paced. I've played in a few dining places in more populated towns but often these places have their pianists and no one really cares. But in smaller towns everyone pays attention, it is totally a different thing to happen, they yearn for this. Thus going to do a concert in these small towns is a goldmine for concerting performers who want an easier task to set up a successful performance.

lostinidlewonder, please accept my respect, you have brought into light what is required as a pianist plus the commercial issues for becoming a well-known concert pianist.

Thank you for such a kind comment. A lot of what I learned during my first few public solo concerts would have not been possible if it where not for the tremendous help that family and friends provided me. My father is a professional engineer who heads multi-billion dollar projects, he has always tried to impress upon me the art of business, motivational thinking, goal setting, dealing with people in business etc since I was young. Even though I sometimes found it annoying when I was younger now as an adult I can really appreciate some of the habits he was trying to teach me, it really is what excelled him in his own work. So I have been very blessed to have such experience to draw from.

What terrified me most of what you wrote, was the deadline issue, when one has a short limited time to get ready for the showtime.

For the full time performing artist you have to have the craft of playing/learning pretty much top notch, it shouldn't even be an issue for you and you should feel confident that you can perform the program without failure. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to try and organize your concert event with the dreaded thought that several passages of pieces you need to play are not controlled adequately? You will simply have a mental breakdown if you try to juggle it all. The playing side to things needs to be the easy part, if it isn't you will set yourself up for great strife.

What you reminded me and I am deeply and very grateful with you is that it's not necessary to learn the most complicated piano pieces to show both the others and yourself your improvement and skills.

I can personally relate to this with my first two concerts I ever did. The first one was not overly complicated and full of popular,semi popular pieces and a few lesser known, at a good standard but by no means a display of a high level of virtuosity. My second concert I included more complicated works which really took me a lot of time to prepare. Some peoples response was that they enjoyed the first one better because the "complicated stuff" they couldn't really emotionally connect to as easily, but some people said they never knew the piano could sound like it did and it was very interesting, it was a mixed response. It provoked me to realize that in Australia at least, people generally want to hear things which are not too abstract.

I don't really think for instance in Australia they would respond well to the complete set of Debussy Etudes or even the more lovely Preludes for that matter (and these are nowhere near as abstract as piano music gets!). They love selections of it but not the more eccentric ones I have found. You can put it in but don't make it a main focus. I could imagine if I played a concert of intensely complicated abstract music which would take me a whole lot of time to learn, the majority of the audience would simply shrug their shoulders at it and think I was hitting random notes.

It is sad I know, but it is the reality, most people don't care for complicated music. Even if you think you need to pull of the most difficult Liszt piece which may sound wonderful it is really missing the point that most people will not realize how difficult it is. I find it amusing that most of the times an audience is impressed by things which are not really difficult at all, such as rapid octaves playing, but it is no where near as hard as other technique you come across which they will simply miss.

Difficulty of a piece should not really be an issue when constructing your program (given that you are a concerting pianist who plays at top levels). You need to consider what musical journey you want to take your audience through. The pieces fit into this musical journey, they sometimes choose each other, sometimes an idea in your presentation controls what pieces are chosen, you don't just look at the difficulty of a piece and choose what to play from this you create a program where people will not care about all the hard work you have done.

[hannah9]

Hello!
First....What? Rach 3 at 15 years? You don't have the requiered maturity... I am 15 years old too and I started piano at 5 years and I don't even think to play the Rach 3. It's a huge challenge even for the great pianists like Horowitz, Berezovsky, Argerich and others. I played Chopin 1 but it was a lot easier than Rach 3.There are many concertos that are suitable for our age. So, if you want to become a concert pianist don't play the most difficult concertos and pieces. Play something for your age like Chopin Scherzos,Polonaises,Ballades,Nocturnes or if you like so much Rachmaninoff play his Etude-Tableaux,Preludes, Musical moments etc. I think that playing a hard piece well is better than playing one of the hardest in the standard repertoire horrible. I suggest you to enter (if it's possible) a internationally competition and maybe then you can become a concert pianist.
PS:Watch "Shine" and then decide if you are ready to play the Rach 3.  

Yeah.. I discovered that when I started learning it...
It's amazing to see how complex some pieces are though - and I think I now have much more appreciation for anyone who plays it. I havn't dived in at the deep end and drowned immediately, though. I've taken it slowly - I've go no rush!
Shine is what inspired me to play it in the first place I find I have little 'spurts' of enthusiasm with it - one day I'll think I'm being stupid trying to learn it now, and then the next I'll be whizzing off again trying to be the most amazing pianist in the world :/ - It hasn't happened yet.
I'm not going to stop learning it because I think I love it too much to let go. Maybe other concertos would be safe to play around with first thank you for your comment!

[spencervirt]

This is something that I tell a lot of people.

What matters is not that you can learn Rach 3 in 10 days and play it note perfectly.

What matters is that you can play Rach 3 with EMOTION and FEELING.

I don't care if you miss 20% of the notes, you still make a better concert pianist than somebody who plays devoid of feeling.

I have found that everything is about technique technique technique nowadays. Everything is about a note perfect performance. I say forget that!

Let me feel something from your playing and I dont care how many notes you miss. A note played without feeling is a note missed in my eyes anyway!

There are all of these kids out there who can play mazeppa with their feet and i'll betchya very few of them can make it  mean something. Make it mean something and be a concert pianist.

Take chopin's prelude no. 7 in A major. You can probably learn it in a few days if you are playing Rach 3! I could tell you just from that if you have "it"

In the end, it all comes down to the saying if theres a will theres a way.

If you want it, you can do it. It doesn't matter what I say or anyone else.

Good luck! Remember, we're our own worst enemies in these things. Don't let yourself down. Ever.

[hannah9]

I have found that everything is about technique technique technique nowadays. Everything is about a note perfect performance. I say forget that!

I agree 100% with what you're saying!!! thank you

[cheesypencil]

This is something that I tell a lot of people.

What matters is not that you can learn Rach 3 in 10 days and play it note perfectly.

What matters is that you can play Rach 3 with EMOTION and FEELING.

I don't care if you miss 20% of the notes, you still make a better concert pianist than somebody who plays devoid of feeling.

I have found that everything is about technique technique technique nowadays. Everything is about a note perfect performance. I say forget that!

Let me feel something from your playing and I dont care how many notes you miss. A note played without feeling is a note missed in my eyes anyway!

There are all of these kids out there who can play mazeppa with their feet and i'll betchya very few of them can make it  mean something. Make it mean something and be a concert pianist.

Take chopin's prelude no. 7 in A major. You can probably learn it in a few days if you are playing Rach 3! I could tell you just from that if you have "it"

In the end, it all comes down to the saying if theres a will theres a way.

If you want it, you can do it. It doesn't matter what I say or anyone else.

Good luck! Remember, we're our own worst enemies in these things. Don't let yourself down. Ever.

yea I kinda agree, it's not about what you play- but how you play it, for example at this years Tchaikovsky Piano Competition, 3 played Appasionata and non of them advanced to 2nd stage while few others played easier Haydn/Mozart's and did.

[pianisten1989]

This is something that I tell a lot of people.

What matters is not that you can learn Rach 3 in 10 days and play it note perfectly.

What matters is that you can play Rach 3 with EMOTION and FEELING.

I don't care if you miss 20% of the notes, you still make a better concert pianist than somebody who plays devoid of feeling.

I have found that everything is about technique technique technique nowadays. Everything is about a note perfect performance. I say forget that!

Let me feel something from your playing and I dont care how many notes you miss. A note played without feeling is a note missed in my eyes anyway!

There are all of these kids out there who can play mazeppa with their feet and i'll betchya very few of them can make it  mean something. Make it mean something and be a concert pianist.

Take chopin's prelude no. 7 in A major. You can probably learn it in a few days if you are playing Rach 3! I could tell you just from that if you have "it"

In the end, it all comes down to the saying if theres a will theres a way.

If you want it, you can do it. It doesn't matter what I say or anyone else.

Good luck! Remember, we're our own worst enemies in these things. Don't let yourself down. Ever.

I actually don't agree at all...
1. If you could learn Rach 3 in 10 days, to note perfection, You will become some sort of concert pianist.  Probably someone who tours the world every other day...
2. What is emotion and feeling then? Is it rubato everywhere? If it's tone quality and stuff like that, someone who could learn it in 10 days will certainly not have any trouble with that.
3. I don't want to seem rude, but you doesn't matter that much... If someone constantly miss 20% of the tones in every piece, they wont make a concert pianist.
To become a concert pianist one need to have focus on both the emotional and the technical. To have one of 2 things isn't good enough. It has never been.
4. That is nothing but ignorant to think that everything is about technique. If you take time to listen to the major music competitions, you'll notice that the ones without any 'meaning' in their music is out after the first or second round. And that's a fact.
5. And to play with feeling is also a technical thing. (at least if you mean tone quality)
6. Again, if you don't have any technique, you wont become a concert pianist. People wont get satisfied with you only playing the "slow and beautiful" pieces. Then you'll never ever be able to play a full piece, and that's not very professional is it?
7. If you are playing Rach 3, you can probably sight read that prelude. And no, it's completely impossible for you to say if anyone have "it" from one single piece. If you only can play Rach 3 with "emotion and feeling", but can't play anything else, that wont do it. One piece can't cover 500 years of piano music.
8. If you want it, you need to practise A LOT. You can't just say "I want it" and then just become a concert pianist without trying. You can't become a lumberjack just by wanting it either. It doesn't work that way.

[fleetfingers]

pianisten is right. The reason the best are the best is because they can play with near-perfect technique, hitting all the right notes, AND with feeling. They have the whole package. You may appreciate hearing someone play with emotion who misses 20% of the notes, but the fact is that there are people who can play with the same emotion and hit all of the notes. Even amongst that group, very few enjoy a successful career as a concert pianist.

[spencervirt]

I agree with both of you. You misunderstood.

To be a concert pianist you must have both.

I am simply saying that so many people nowadays play with note perfection and perfect technique but play like robots! I heard a girl play Ballade 4 with PERFECT METRONOME PRECISION. Amazing, but the worst ballade 4 I have ever heard. What was she thinking? Every note was the same dull boring tone. No mistakes except the entire performance.

I am saying that I would prefer someone who makes mistakes and at least plays with feeling than someone who plays with perfect technique but like a robot. I never said someone who misses 20% of the notes could be a concert pianist. I said he would be a BETTER concert pianist than a note perfect performer who plays without feeling.

I disagree completely that someone who could learn Rach 3 in 10 days would have no trouble with feeling IN EVERY CASE. There are many people who can sightread anything but could never give a convincing performance because they cant feel the darn music. Playing without emotion is like simply moving your fingers. I don't even call them pianists, because that is NEVER what it was all about. It's about musicality not how fast I can move my fingers and make everybody say wow. It's MUSIC not ACROBATICS! Being a very good pianist as I know you to be, I am surprised that you cannot distinguish tone quality and rubato from playing with emotion. It is irreplaceable and IMPOSSIBLE to manufacture falsely.

What I meant by the prelude comment was this- all you need is less than a minute of listening time to discern whether or not someone plays like a robot or like a human being. I could listen to one piece (I prefer the prelude because it is such a short but deep piece emotionally) and tell you if you understand the music and become it.

I never said you could get somewhere just by wanting. How did you get that from my post? If you want something enough and you practice enough (should have been implied) there is very little you cannot do. I'm sure you will disagree but I strongly believe in that principle. You have to have natural talent, yes, but other than that if there's a will there's a way.

I appreciate your reply very much and I understand where you are coming from. You see, I play a lot of Chopin. His compositions all tell a story and I have very strong feelings about playing him with emotion. I hate it when people play Chopin like it is played on a midi. Horrible.

Pianisten, I am very much the person I talk about. I tend to miss a few notes every time I perform. I can't get away from it. Nobody cares. They all tell me I play with so much feeling that it doesn't matter.

My fingerings are generally all wrong. It takes me ages to learn things. I still believe myself a better pianist than someone who simulates the computer. I will always stand by that. I'll also never be a concert pianist, because I miss notes. It just wont happen and I accept that. In that sense I agree with you completely. My fault, in my opinion, is simply the lesser of two evils. I will play the fourth ballade as an application supplement next year (for college). It will take me 100 tries before I get the note perfect recording. 100x12 = 1200 minutes= 20 hours of recording time. It will take me 1 try before I interpret it with emotion.

Anyways, it makes me laugh when people cringe when I hit a wrong note right in the middle of a piece. That's a plus

Thanks for the reply.

Spencer Virtue

[pianisten1989]

I just don't really understand. Uhm, lets take an other example:
There are 2 maths teachers applying for a job.
One of them is maths champion, and knows everything there is to know, but is a crappy teacher. The other one is a great teacher, but has no idea what maths is. None of them is suitable for the job, since they only have one part of what they need.

And who says that girl will become a concert pianist? And what about taste, and stuff like that? And to be able to play the 4th ballade without mistakes actually is a very good thing itself. People say that you "can't learn musicality" and that's just as false as saying that you "can't learn how to hit all the notes right". It's not easy to to a note perfect concert. I'd dare to say that it's at least as difficult to play with "emotions and feeling". The only difference is that the people who plays note perfect never complains about it. While the people who plays wrong notes everywhere somehow has the excuse that "they at least played with feeling, and would rather listen to that".

I don't want to be one of those "I'll never stop argue until you give in"-guys, so I wont go into the Rach 3 argue. We simply have different views on that. Though, I will say this: If you are able to learn Rach 3 in 10 days, there will be a billion teachers who'll be prepared to teach you everything there is to know about musicality.

I don't get it. Only because it's slow always means it's deep. Why is that a deep prelude? It's like 3 chords, and, to me, looks more like an interlude than anything else. How about the very dramatic g#minor (I think)? If that's not an emotional prelude, I don't know what is.
And how will that single prelude show that you have the musicality to play Bach, Mozart and Beethoven or even Chopin?

But you did write "If you want it, you can do it. It doesn't matter what I say or anyone else.". Maybe I was a bit over analysing, but I actually don't think you need to want it, and then you'll become one. I want to become a concert pianist more than many people I know, but I know some really talented people, who's chances are like 1000 times greater than mine, even though I probably want it more. It takes loads of talent and luck...

I also play a lot of Chopin, and I did play quite many mistakes before, and use the exact same arguments as you did. And I still play a few mistakes, but, as I we've agreed about, we can't have only 1 of the 2 parts, so I really try to change the fact that I did play ,any mistakes before. Sometimes I actually prefer a pianist who plays perfect notes, but maybe not a lot of musicality, and sometimes I want to listen to someone with musicality. But none of them are perfect, and I'd rather listen to someone plays with great musicality AND as close as note perfect it can be.

I see we have very different views on many things, so I wont comment on everything.

[oxy60]

It really depends on the ears of your audience.

I hear way too much. A concert is spoiled for me with the slightest flub. Others think differently.

You have to hit the highest level to satisfy your teacher/coach and later satisfy your agent.

[lostinidlewonder]

Note perfection has no correlation with the greatest concert pianists that have ever lived, you pretty much can find mistakes in any live recording (CD recordings do not often reflect reality as engineering these days can allow for a great deal of alterations and retakes). Note perfection is merely something that some clever students like to obsess about and use to measure how well they play a piece (at higher levels you will tend to find if you overly obsess over note perfection constantly your rate of learning goes downhill). When you are in the lower levels of piano it is certainly possible to play pieces with note perfection, but when you get into the more advanced repertoire not perfection is often not only impossible to even measure in a live performance where the performer plays a complicated pieces, but essentially is not the driving force behind what entertains and inspires the audience.

Do you listen to someones speech and then say, oh that speech is terrible because they paused too long, or coughed during it, or could have used a better word etc? The worlds most famous speeches when performed are filled with passion and power and of course, well chosen words. When you get someone to say "I have a dream" from Martin Luther King famous speech they always say it in "that" voice And those who know the speech well know the various tones in King's voice of the same phrase "I have a dream" which highlights his points in a wonderful way each time.  I find it the same when I listen to exceptional recordings, they speak something that has nothing to do with note perfection but a musical speech which reflects a natural, artistic musical tongue with a powerful message. If Martin Luther King said his speech in a monotonous voice do you think it would have had the same impact? He was passionate, he was living what we was speaking, it meant a great deal to him personally, emotionally, it would have been impossible to say it without any emotion.

Musically speaking however, some people are just interested in the notes and fingering, the emotion is beyond them, it does not drive their musical inspiration, the musical inspiration is pasted on top of their technical prowess but does not reflect one fluent in the musical language rather a product of something that has been tirelessly labored on and recited. From my teaching experience anyone can learn to play a piece note perfect, but the soul and life of a piece, the musical language, expression, playing a piece with your heart, this although can be transferred over to a student for individual pieces, to train a student to have the keen sense to make those decisions themselves is often a much much greater task than that of technical control and note accuracy.

But one will wonder, why can we listen to a little young child play a piece, although it might not be that of a grand master, it still wows us and entertains us a huge amount? The reason is how the performance is packaged, the young child doesn't have to say anything, just because they are what encourages people to be at awe, a youngster playing the piano better than people many times their age. It is like a poodle standing on its hind legs dancing around, it is a clever trick with a lot of training. If you aspire to be a performing artist then you have to really consider how the audience perceives you without you even playing a note. Thus concert presentation and how you speak to your audience really is a key part and puts note perfection to shame.

However a performance shouldn't be marred by bad mistakes and obviously sloppiness. But it has to be frequent enough to annoy you, some people can be annoyed very easily, I tend not to be annoyed if the performer knows about musical language and is speaking it fluently to me, mistakes just don't phase me then. It is just like someone coughed during an inspirational speech, or stuttered a word, it just not that bad. But if you lose your place, fumble about, this is distracting and annoying yes, but it happens and it is not the cause for the collapse of a performers career. If you fail to connect with your audience and do not know how to speak to them, this will spell disaster for your career.

[gerryjay]

Dear Hannah,
I didn't read through the thread, but I want to share some background with you. I think that being 15 or so and fell committed to something - in our case, music and the piano - is the best starting point for a happy life. I was there, many friends of mine were there as well. That said, a couple of thoughts.

1. You are narrowing down everything to the piano. It is quite a decision. So, don't spoil everything by narrowing the piano itself. For instance, your ultimate goal is to be a concert pianist. Well, that's an amazing challenge but the piano is not only about concerti playing: you have solo recitals, competitions, college, you have chamber music, you have teaching, accompaniment, writing...the list is huge, and the best advice I can give is: try everything you like! There is no need to focus more than you already do when you choose the piano and the classical repertoire.

2. There is a reason to this advice: without a single exception, the people I knew that were into music to a specific goal (most likely, having a career in solo performance) are now doing something else. I mean, working as architects, or lawyers, or - a remarkable case - as a skateboard designer. None of them achieved the desired goal and, I guess for frustration, ended given music up.

Notice that among them there were very good players, that participated in competitions, etc.

3. So, you must know that the chances are small for some paths, but taken in its entirety, the piano field is open wide. There is a huge need for good professionals in many areas and, the cool part, it is easy to do what you want with the piano if you have your bills already paid. Since you are 15, I assume you do not experience this by now, but you will. Nonetheless, one thing is scheduling some recitals to play the music you want and - OK - accepting a payment that will not make you rich. Other very different thing is to look at the phone and wait for it to call.

4. Furthermore, the easiest way to earn money in music is to have a variety of choices, provided you are very good in each. For instance, you can make a good living by teaching (almost everyone does), playing in weddings, and accompanying a bunch of singers. This is an actual example, btw: a friend of mine do exactly that and have no complaints. Also, she plays every now and then her recitals and always have a full house. A happy pianists and, more important, a happy person.

Best regards, and very good luck.

Jay.

[faa2010]

That is having enough common sense Jay, you have a point on knowing people with specific goals who ended up doing something else (and probably one forms part of this group).

Nevertheless, this profession is not the only one where the bids are low.  According to what I have lived, one can get easily a job, no matter which one, but is very difficult to get exactly the job you want, and also there is people in the environment who usually tells something like "I have known other people who quitted after some time".  And that's where your comment about playing piano no matter where, when or to whom can be pointed out.

About being a piano teacher, the job of being a teacher is also applied to every career. And I am not underestimating this job, being a teacher is an important job and Chopin's incoming was mostly because of being a teacher.

What it is not right is not trusting in your feelings and instincts, and it comes one day when you regret not trying to do it, that's the moment when one is not happy.

But I want to remark one of the issues that lostinidlewonder mentioned, part of "getting an outbreak as a concert pianist" is getting the "right" social contacts, enough economical resources, and luck.  It's like becoming an actor or an actress.

[spencervirt]

Lostinidlewonder and I share the same views, pianisten.

Once again, I respect your opinion. We just have different views! There's nothing wrong with that at all!

I think that lostinidlewonder sums my point up very well.

&feature=related

vs.

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You tell me!

[pianisten1989]

Yes, we share different opinions. That was my last argue-reply though
However, my point was only (well, almost) that you have a very small chance in becoming a concert pianist if you keep hitting too many wrong notes all the time, but playing with musicality, just as little as hitting all the right notes without any musicality at all.

Oh come on! You can't compare an amateur video with 1 shot with Zimerman's, who probably had like 100000 shots to make it perfect.

It also says "Practise 1", so it's a PRACTISE RUN! Zimerman have probably played this ballade for the last 50 years. So what to compare? A student who's practising vs one of the top pianists in the world playing this piece for the 10000th time? Her playing is also far from "note perfect". Though, I think she actually plays it quite well, apart from the mistakes. Ofc there's a billion details to fix, but there were quite many places where she played very well...

Do you see her as note perfect and zimermans as musically perfect or what?

[spencervirt]

I was just showing how zimerman plays with feeling and she doesn't. At all.

She plays with very descent technique. No feeling,

Worst performance of the Ballade I have EVER heard. She plays notes and nothing else!

Don't you see what I mean? Do you really think that performance was descent?

I don't care if it's a practice run. I understand that as an excuse for hitting wrong notes but NEVER for feeling the music! She has no understanding of the deepness of that piece whatsoever.

Even when Zimerman played the piece for the first time 40 years ago, he STILL played with emotion I guarantee you, despite the wrong notes he may have had.

If you see her performance as descent then maybe the root of our disagreement is our perception of music altogether!

There's more to music that the notes and she doesn't understand that. Just listen to the opening... what is that?! Notes on a page.

[gerryjay]

That is having enough common sense Jay, you have a point on knowing people with specific goals who ended up doing something else (and probably one forms part of this group).

Nevertheless, this profession is not the only one where the bids are low.  According to what I have lived, one can get easily a job, no matter which one, but is very difficult to get exactly the job you want, and also there is people in the environment who usually tells something like "I have known other people who quitted after some time".  And that's where your comment about playing piano no matter where, when or to whom can be pointed out.

About being a piano teacher, the job of being a teacher is also applied to every career. And I am not underestimating this job, being a teacher is an important job and Chopin's incoming was mostly because of being a teacher.

What it is not right is not trusting in your feelings and instincts, and it comes one day when you regret not trying to do it, that's the moment when one is not happy.

But I want to remark one of the issues that lostinidlewonder mentioned, part of "getting an outbreak as a concert pianist" is getting the "right" social contacts, enough economical resources, and luck.  It's like becoming an actor or an actress.

I agree with the idea of trusting your feeling and instincts, but I think there is a clear difference between following that and carrying that too much further. My instinct is about music: that is what I do and what I ever did. The piano is something that was not possible until some years ago, and now it is possible to me to narrow down my choice: I don't play the guitar (or do anything guitar related) and I don't play jazz or pop (or do anything non-classical related) anymore.

When I was 18 and I started working, it was an impossible choice. I'd probably ended up in the employment pages.  But I don't regret this open choice, because it gave to me a stable and profitable profession. Now it is time to enjoy a bit more.

Best regards,
Jay.

[m1469]

Something that has just today come into mind for me regarding any of this (and regarding my crazy-at-the-time life right now), is the need to discern the difference between seeking musical fulfillment vs. income or "profession."  I can't say that I understand the first thing about somebody who got set on a professional track when they were itsy, had everybody rooting for them, went to great schools, got a great education, and had lots of musician/piano friends and plenty of attention and socialization, and then how they would end up being a lawyer.  To me, that is as though I'm reading about it in a book about a mythical land, far, far away.  And, I don't mean that I can't comprehend how that could happen, but I don't understand what it takes, exactly, for certain decisions to be made in a way that defines that path.  So, I will speak only for myself.

Anyway, I've (maybe unfortunately) had some very deep thinking on my own path lately, like it or not.  And, I have been searching not only just for the thing itself, but even just to understand what I am searching for, and today I think I realized it plainly that it is, above anything else, musical satisfaction.  Suddenly, those two words even came to glow in my consciousness and have a meaning to them.  I think it's very important, even above all other musical endeavors, to follow that, and sometimes it has nothing to do with a profession - whether you are living your dream profession -even if it's a concert pianist- or not.  I think that, no matter what, musical satisfaction is something that is slightly out of this world, out of the realm of even the earthly.  Yeah, I really do think that and I really do mean that.

But, I wanted to say it for a reason.  Because, I agree (currently) that even from my viewpoint, which is not the Mother-Earth of all viewpoints, the music profession looks somewhat wide open, as Jay mentioned.  But, make no mistake (I couldn't help saying that - even though a person *automatically* thinks of Bushy Boy if it's said), there is only one way to find musical satisfaction and that is in doing exactly the thing which satisfies you musically.  So, yes, you can teach, you can compose, you can perform, you can accompany, but don't just expect that as long as you are doing *something* in the musical field, you will automatically find the satisfaction you are looking for.  I teach.  -insert long and growing story- sometimes I do enjoy it, sometimes I really do not.  I came to a reality that I needed to teach to earn a living, and was overjoyed at one point to be doing *anything* at all in music/piano!  I think I still am, even.  But, I also have come to realize that I can't find my own musical satisfaction through teaching alone.  Probably not even in a million years.  That doesn't mean I don't have some satisfaction and enjoyment in it, but there is still something deeper who needs more than it ... at least more than the way it is now.

And, hey, my mortgage is high, sometimes I've got tons of students, sometimes I'm day after day waiting for the phone to ring.  Sometimes I can't sleep at night.  It's not only performers who go through that.  

I'll tell you what I can't change though, I can't ever change that little girl in me who found musical satisfaction, and who comes to me often in my deepest doubts, and reminds me of the promise I made to her to learn everything I could about the piano.

These days I kind of stop believing, exactly, in chasing dreams though I have not given up on them.  I think I'm just not convinced that making a single decision one, single day, puts us exactly on the track to finding our deepest desires.  I think we must decide over and over.  I believe though in following one's heart and listening to when we feel we are finding musical satisfaction, and to not settle for less than experiencing that, whatever your profession.

[fleetfingers]

What? When did this turn into a debate about emotion vs accuracy? We're talking about one's chances of becoming a concert pianist.

I have been to plenty of concerts, enough to know that though it's impossible to play a piece perfectly, the best of players can get pretty darn close. And they play with enough feeling to stir the audience to a full spectrum of emotions.

I don't think anyone is arguing that playing the notes without any expression or musical understanding is admirable.

[pianisten1989]

It started like that when he said that you could miss loads of notes, but as long as you played it "with feeling", you'd do great. Then I said, "You you need to have the technique as well".

And to compare Zimerman to a student who, according to her account, plays the piano "sometimes", is just really stupid. And what do you mean she didn't play with feeling? I felt many things because of her playing, and her timing was sometimes just as I wanted it. She'd probably only played the piece for a while, and there are very many notes to focus on, so don't sit there and say mean things to a girl (who you compare with freaking Zimerman!!) that it's the worst ballade you ever heard.

And no, I don't think Zimerman played it with "feeling" when he'd play the piece in a few months. Most people who wants to become professional pianists first focus on getting the notes right, and then on the emotion. But hey, you obviously knows what it takes since "You can tell from the a major prelude it someone's got 'it'"
And if you want to make a fool out of yourself, and look up into the air when you play the wrong notes all the time TO PLAY WITH FREAKING FEELING and upload on youtube, then fine.

That comment about the girl really made me upset. Why the hell do you think you can compare her with one of the greatest living pianists?!

Ok, I'm done with you. Clearly, after that, you are not worth the time it takes to discuss..

[spencervirt]

I've been having a respectful argument with you, and I have enjoyed hearing what you have to say, and now you're making personal attacks against me? I don't understand that....

Your last post was very very rude...... We were simply having a DISCUSSION that has turned into you bashing me. In the time I have been on this forum I have gained respect for you as you contribute very much. I don't want to be your enemy, but from that last post I have lost some respect for you.

I am NOT trying to compare her to Zimmerman. I am simply trying to show what I mean. I am not saying mean things to her, as I am talking to you and not to her. I am using her as an example. Her ballade was almost emotionless. Chopin would have cried. I understand she's an amateur, and I understand that she is practicing, but that is no excuse to play like that. As we were discussing like gentlemen (which seems to have dissolved) , you need both technique and feeling to be a concert pianist. I was using zimerman as a way to exemplify how one must play with emotion or it means nothing. The girl, while she did an excellent job in terms of technique, simply didn't understand that.... As I was saying, I think you and I have a basic disagreement in terms of what music really is.... you seem to think technique is god and feeling is secondary. In my mind, feeling comes first and technique second. One should develop both. I admit, I was overly harsh in my description of her ballade, and for that I am sorry. However, I still believe that she was lacking feeling throughout, despite her stage in practice. One should not manufacture feeling, and therefore no amount of practice should really make a difference in how much feeling you have. Do you understand what I mean by that? It isn't something that you can just "add later" like mordents. It should be there from start to finish..... This is what I don't understand in your argument.

I never said I played wrong notes "all the time." I said I missed more notes than would be acceptable for a concert pianist. Don't modify my words to suit an attack on me that has come out of nowhere. I miss as many notes as one would except out of an amateur. I don't make a fool out of myself because I miss a few notes when I play in recital. Are you kidding me? People enjoy my playing. I played today for a group of people who enjoyed what I did. Yes, I missed some notes.... one piece I played happened to be note perfect.... If they are so obsessed with me hitting a g sharp instead of a g because of a finger slip than they can leave and not listen anymore. I don't care. I play because I love it.

what makes me angry is when people who have never heard me play, who don't know me, attack me as a pianist. I enjoy what I do. I haven't been playing long, but this is something that I love. NEVER again attack me by saying that I make a fool out of me when I play. shame on you.

I have not judged you. Do not judge me.

You are significantly over-analyzing my comment about the prelude. My main point here, pianisten, is that one only needs to hear a short piece of music to understand the nature of the pianist's playing. I will stand by that. I forget which violinist stood by this principle, but he said that he could tell if a student could play from one passage of music... one that he had them play. Such can be so with piano.

I will go back to the basis of my argument. Music was never about technique. Music was about expressing emotions and telling stories through wavelengths.... Music is a way to exploit the way that the human brain understands notes and make the listener feel something. It is one of the amazing facets of the human brain- being able to automatically understand sad vs. happy music. The brain can even compare notes to colors. It's an amazing thing, and none of us would be here without it. I just hate the obsession with technique and what feels like a dismissal (by some) of emotion in playing.

I don't want to be your enemy, pianisten. I really don't. Can we admit that we will never agree and simply move on? I never wanted this to turn into a volley of personal attacks. Please at least give me the respect to respond to this, because I have a feeling that you don't want to.

Please forgive my harshness,

Spencer Virtue

[mike_lang]

Your last post was very very rude......

This is unfortunately not atypical . . .

[gerryjay]

Dear m1469,
interesting post of yours. I want to comment a point or two.

Something that has just today come into mind for me regarding any of this (and regarding my crazy-at-the-time life right now), is the need to discern the difference between seeking musical fulfillment vs. income or "profession."

That is the great dilemma, because I think a complete balance is impossible. Let me pick the starter example: being a concert pianist. If one succeed at that, of course s/he accomplished something remarkable and of course (at least I hope so) s/he is happy with his/her path choice. Nonetheless, being a concert pianist is about playing what other people want to listen, not exactly what you do want to play.

A very simple example of that: if you hit the road to play the same recital a hundred times in a year, in a hundred different cities, sleeping in a hundred different mattresses (that is, a basic concert pianist life), you will for sure have many "Where am I?" moments, as well as many "I can't stand this piece anymore" moments. But if that is your profession, you find the way to contemporize that and go on.

The same, btw, happens in all professions. Hence I think it is fundamental to choose a profession that you love, because even so, a schedule is a schedule, a goal is a goal, and - after all - money is money.

And, hey, my mortgage is high, sometimes I've got tons of students, sometimes I'm day after day waiting for the phone to ring.  Sometimes I can't sleep at night.  It's not only performers who go through that.  

Very indeed. And that's why I think a healthy music career is based in multiplicity: if your teaching is low, your accompaniment will be up, while your recitals will be normal, and you will be planning something new up. Music is not about creativity? Well, then, let's use it in our daily life! Perhaps, the notion that helps me even in the darkest days is: I prefer to do whatever in music compared to do a single thing wherever else.

Best regards,
Jay.

[m1469]

Dear m1469,
interesting post of yours. I want to comment a point or two.
That is the great dilemma, because I think a complete balance is impossible. Let me pick the starter example: being a concert pianist. If one succeed at that, of course s/he accomplished something remarkable and of course (at least I hope so) s/he is happy with his/her path choice. Nonetheless, being a concert pianist is about playing what other people want to listen, not exactly what you do want to play.

A very simple example of that: if you hit the road to play the same recital a hundred times in a year, in a hundred different cities, sleeping in a hundred different mattresses (that is, a basic concert pianist life), you will for sure have many "Where am I?" moments, as well as many "I can't stand this piece anymore" moments. But if that is your profession, you find the way to contemporize that and go on.

The same, btw, happens in all professions. Hence I think it is fundamental to choose a profession that you love, because even so, a schedule is a schedule, a goal is a goal, and - after all - money is money.

But, that's just it.  I think it's hard for me to explain, but I see that actually it's not necessarily a profession I'm after to provide for me the love I'm seeking.  My actual dream -even if for years I think it's been to be a concert pianist- is to be on stage and feel a certain kind of musical satisfaction which takes me even out of the earth, out of the profession, out of the human circumstance.  And, I think that some people find it (or some version of it) by themselves at home while nobody listens, some people find it through teaching, some people find it through accompanying or composing, or whatever it is they are doing ... but, the musical satisfaction must always be pursued.  Not saying that one shouldn't be thoughtful about how to make a living and so on, of course I know bills need to be paid and there is all the practical aspects of making a living - having a profession.  But, I guess I see, my deepest, most absolute profession is actually laying even beyond the world and beyond a title - though they may appear to overlap.

I think there is a danger in deciding that your dream is to become a concert pianist ... at least for somebody in my exact position since it's not like I've been raised giving recitals and such.  For me, it's like I think "I want these amazing musical experiences, I want to be the best I could possibly be, I want to travel, etc." and I think it means concert pianist.  I also like the idea.  But, an idea of a thing and the thing, I already know in life, are different.  And I realize it's unrealistic to ask a profession to give me all of my dreams.  However, what I really want are those musical satisfaction, and I guess I think today that if I pursue that everyday, I don't know actually where it would lead.  How could I?  I mean, I just don't.  

To decide on a profession that I don't actually know very much about ... "concert pianist" ... and to decide that becoming that would grant me my deepest desires ... I think would be anybody setting themselves up for the darkest imaginable days.  I am not closed to becoming a concert pianist, but I think the only way to promise me my desires is to pursue them day by day, step by step, and not decide that I know how that looks in however long down the road or in whatever package of a profession.  That doesn't mean I have given up on being a concert pianist (go ahead and anybody think what you like here), it just means I need to bring something more rich to my life even everyday, and to my expectations.

Very indeed. And that's why I think a healthy music career is based in multiplicity: if your teaching is low, your accompaniment will be up, while your recitals will be normal, and you will be planning something new up. Music is not about creativity? Well, then, let's use it in our daily life! Perhaps, the notion that helps me even in the darkest days is: I prefer to do whatever in music compared to do a single thing wherever else.

In fact, I like the idea of more than one expression, more than one way.  In fact I sing and want to continue, I compose and want to continue, I teach and want to continue ... and, I would love to play with ensembles and accompany.  I'm willing to have an interesting and varied profession.  But, that doesn't mean I would wish not to play a concerto with an orchestra or even to be a top tier player in general ... or that I would wish to live in complete obscurity as a performer/pianist.  But, anyway, many things are not clear at all to me.  Musical satisfaction, including professional goals, is something I can aim at in every moment in every day and is perhaps even attainable in a certain tangible way in every day, too.

[m1469]

I think there is a danger in deciding that your dream is to become a concert pianist ...

And, actually, I think there is a danger in expecting any one particular thing to bring us the ultimate fulfillment in our lives.  Between visiting with family, particularly my Mom and my Grandmother, who feel that having kids is the ultimate satisfaction in life (and I don't doubt there is very much fulfillment in this), and a number of other things, I see that in fact, any time we place our deepest needs on whatever we consider the greatest thing on earth, we are going to be let down.  OK, I'm not suggesting that being let down is unnatural or the end of the world -- I mean, in context of the world and what it means to mature and grow up and so on, many people would consider it a necessary experience, even.  It's just, I see the trap is all ... and yet, I am still seeking something in life, you see?  And, I think all of us are in one way or another, and at the same time, we all must give up sometime even our most precious things in this world.  Not to say that we don't enjoy them while we experience them and/or "have" them in our experience here ... but, it's like sometimes I see them through a glass or so.  They are beautiful, and yet there is even still something more.

[john90]

If someone has reached grade 8 at your age, and passionately, desperately wants it, and never changes their mind about that, practices appropriately, I think the chance is good for the taking. If that is your dream, you own it, you can change it for something else if/when you are ready.

[m1469]

But anyway, don't get me wrong.  Part of my current musical satisfaction involves the goal of preparing a program (or more than one ... one of them perhaps including singing, etc.) and playing it hundreds of times this coming year 

[pianisten1989]

I've been having a respectful argument with you, and I have enjoyed hearing what you have to say, and now you're making personal attacks against me? I don't understand that....


Your last post was very very rude...... We were simply having a DISCUSSION that has turned into you bashing me. In the time I have been on this forum I have gained respect for you as you contribute very much. I don't want to be your enemy, but from that last post I have lost some respect for you.

what?! You go to attack at some random girl on the internet and saying she sucks, and I'm the rude one?!? I simple took her defence, since I really don't like crap-talking people who can't respond.

I am NOT trying to compare her to Zimmerman. I am simply trying to show what I mean. I am not saying mean things to her, as I am talking to you and not to her. I am using her as an example. Her ballade was almost emotionless. Chopin would have cried. I understand she's an amateur, and I understand that she is practicing, but that is no excuse to play like that. As we were discussing like gentlemen (which seems to have dissolved) , you need both technique and feeling to be a concert pianist. I was using zimerman as a way to exemplify how one must play with emotion or it means nothing. The girl, while she did an excellent job in terms of technique, simply didn't understand that.... As I was saying, I think you and I have a basic disagreement in terms of what music really is.... you seem to think technique is god and feeling is secondary. In my mind, feeling comes first and technique second. One should develop both. I admit, I was overly harsh in my description of her ballade, and for that I am sorry. However, I still believe that she was lacking feeling throughout, despite her stage in practice. One should not manufacture feeling, and therefore no amount of practice should really make a difference in how much feeling you have. Do you understand what I mean by that? It isn't something that you can just "add later" like mordents. It should be there from start to finish..... This is what I don't understand in your argument.

Where did I say that technique is more important? I just said (oh, wait.. No I didn't) that I don't like the word "feeling". What is feeling, and how do you know what the "correct" feeling is? And how do you think it's possible to play a piece with musicality (I use that instead of feeling. Feeling seems so... secondary school when a kid plays with tons and tons of rubato) when you obviously doesn't know the technique? No, she did far from a good work technically. There were so many places where she need to fix that, and the rest of the piece where she just couldn't focus on the music, but had to focus on the technical aspect so that she could come through the piece.

"

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vs.

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And how is that not comparing them?!

I never said I played wrong notes "all the time." I said I missed more notes than would be acceptable for a concert pianist. Don't modify my words to suit an attack on me that has come out of nowhere. I miss as many notes as one would except out of an amateur. I don't make a fool out of myself because I miss a few notes when I play in recital. Are you kidding me? People enjoy my playing. I played today for a group of people who enjoyed what I did. Yes, I missed some notes.... one piece I played happened to be note perfect.... If they are so obsessed with me hitting a g sharp instead of a g because of a finger slip than they can leave and not listen anymore. I don't care. I play because I love it.

Missing 20% of all the notes is basically all the time. To not play a single phrase with all the notes right is just not professional. And sure, you can go with the "I'm an amateur"-card. Hey, I started playing classical piano when I was 16, I can miss whenever I want, because I have an excuse.
I don't want to be rude, even though I think you are, but here we're talking about becoming a professional pianist. How you play actually doesn't matter, since you're not a professional.

what makes me angry is when people who have never heard me play, who don't know me, attack me as a pianist. I enjoy what I do. I haven't been playing long, but this is something that I love. NEVER again attack me by saying that I make a fool out of me when I play. shame on you.

Yet, you can judge some random girl who's also an amateur, and who's learning how to play one of the most difficult works, calling her playing unacceptable? Hypocrisy, thy name is you.

You are significantly over-analyzing my comment about the prelude. My main point here, pianisten, is that one only needs to hear a short piece of music to understand the nature of the pianist's playing. I will stand by that. I forget which violinist stood by this principle, but he said that he could tell if a student could play from one passage of music... one that he had them play. Such can be so with piano.

And how can you? Maybe that violinist was von Mutter, Perlman or Heifetz. Then they MIGHT have the "gift" to tell a world class violinist from just an outstanding one. Then that's a difference. YOU can't tell. YOU are not a world class pianist. It's like saying "I can tell if a car will be the most popular in the world if you're an interested amateur. It's just not possible.

I will go back to the basis of my argument. Music was never about technique. Music was about expressing emotions and telling stories through wavelengths.... Music is a way to exploit the way that the human brain understands notes and make the listener feel something. It is one of the amazing facets of the human brain- being able to automatically understand sad vs. happy music. The brain can even compare notes to colors. It's an amazing thing, and none of us would be here without it. I just hate the obsession with technique and what feels like a dismissal (by some) of emotion in playing.

That would be nice, in a perfect world. But you can't play on a professional level if you don't have the technique. You can if you are an amateur, but that's a big difference. I played at a concert two weeks ago. And I plays like sh*t. I missed loads of notes, but did big movements, and made it look really show off. That worked, because I'm just about to start my second year at a music academy, and the audience was mostly friends and family. If Zimerman did it, his sponsors would leave and his contracts would expire so quickly.

I don't want to be your enemy, pianisten. I really don't. Can we admit that we will never agree and simply move on? I never wanted this to turn into a volley of personal attacks. Please at least give me the respect to respond to this, because I have a feeling that you don't want to.

Please forgive my harshness,

Spencer Virtue

Yes, and that was what I said in my last post, or maybe even the post before that. And I only go on attack when there is a reason to. And now, there was. So if you attack someone from the internet, just to make a point, I will attack back..

[spencervirt]

"what?! You go to attack at some random girl on the internet and saying she sucks, and I'm the rude one?!? I simple took her defence, since I really don't like crap-talking people who can't respond."

I understand that. I see that your response was appropriate. I never wanted to attack or trash talk her (which looking back is exactly what I ended up doing) but only to use her performance as a way to help convey to you my understanding of feeling. I got a bit out of hand on my second post regarding her video, as I mentioned before. She probably worked quite hard to reach that level of playing, as the work is very VERY difficult, and I was wrong judging it so harshly. However, there is still much to learn from the performance, and to phrase it nicely, it is simply lacking a basic element of playing that is so essential to Chopin and other composers- "musicality" or "feeling." Can we deny that? I would be surprised if you can.



"Missing 20% of all the notes is basically all the time. To not play a single phrase with all the notes right is just not professional. And sure, you can go with the "I'm an amateur"-card. Hey, I started playing classical piano when I was 16, I can miss whenever I want, because I have an excuse."



I never said I missed 20% of the notes. I said someone who misses 20% of the notes and plays with feeling would be a better concert pianist than someone who plays note perfectly but without feeling. I miss my fair share of notes. I'm not going to deny that. I would say in a 5 minute piece I miss 5-8 notes if i'm still polishing. And as you said, which I loved, is that i'm not a professional so it doesn't matter. Exactly! I agree 100%.

I started piano right before my 16th birthday as well. I suppose I have an excuse too, but i'm trying hard to make up for lost time and improve on my accuracy. Note perfection is so important now in competitions and the like (my original post) to the point that my lack of experience really hurts me. As I said before, I ride on my ability to understand the music. Since I was but a little kid, I always listened to classical music. Since then, I like to think that I have learned a lot about the connections between pieces and composers and the emotion/message that they convey. That is why I play the piano. I don't play with too much rubato and I don't make a mess of it, but people always tell me that I have feeling. I have a hard time explaining what feeling is because you can't explain it. It isn't even musicality. Musicality is playing that is pleasing to the ear, correct? Feeling is different. Chopin used to cry when he played. THAT's feeling. People used to hear Chopin play and be so incredibly moved but could never really put a finger on why. It is the miliseconds of time variation in your playing brought out by your innate understanding of the music and your emotions that bring a piece to life. Chopin's ballade is so complex- as a user of this forum put it well, it was written by a man who was in the late stages of TB, and if you listen to the music you can see what Chopin was thinking. The restrained but carefree C major beginning represents a different stage of Chopin's life, separate from the woes of his personal life and his tuberculosis, and the ending coda, ending on that one f minor chord, represents what Chopin knew would be a painful death of suffocation. You can't slam the notes of the ballade. You can't just play them the same way. Each note is so overflowing with meaning that needs to be expressed, and that is what was so lacking in that performance, as good of a job as she did with everything else. The sheet music of composers is the best biography one could read. They tell the story of the composer and express the complexities of human emotion better than words ever could. This is why music is so amazing and treasured in our society. Pictures may be worth a thousand words, but what about music?

I suppose I am very passionate about this, because many people have lost sight of what music is supposed to be.

I would keep writing but I have to go to work, which is probably a good thing because I think I am boring myself, not to mention you!

Have a good day. What pieces were you playing in that concert? Just curious.

Spencer Virtue

[pianisten1989]

I think there has always been people playing very technical stuff, but without telling anything, but they didn't have youtube...

I played Liszt/paganini- etude no 6. it's so not my cup of tea, because it's a very technical and virtuoso piece... Doesn't fit me at all...

[spencervirt]

I'm not a big fan of those big virtuoso pieces either unless they have a lot of musical merit as well- transcendental etude 10 by Liszt, for example. I find that piece incredibly beautiful.

That piece you played is very tough.... good job on that... wow. How long did you work on it?

I think there has always been people playing very technical stuff, but without telling anything, but they didn't have youtube...

That's probably true!

One thing that I find interesting is listening to old old recordings of pieces (rosenthal, cortot, etc) and comparing the style to more contemporary pianists. Cortot's op. 10 no. 1 would never have been recorded today as he makes TONS of mistakes. Interesting how things have changed.

If you didn't like that etude why did you play it? was it required? Do you like la campanella?