Perfect Recital

[mcdiddy1]

Simple question: Do you think it is possible to hold a recital where all the notes and rhythms are perfect? Seems no matter how hard I try there are always issues with wrong notes because of nervousness. What do you think about this?

[mlbbaseball]

Not unless you are playing like Minuet in G by Bach the whole program, which would surely bore your audience to death.

[maykapar1]

I agree with you mcdiddy1.  I also try very hard to achieve a perfect student recital.  In my recital last week, about half of my students had note or rhythm errors, in spite of being very well prepared.  All of these students could play their pieces very well at their lesson.  I don't know if there is a way to create the nerves and stress they will feel in front of an audience before the actual performance, so they could then practice performing under stress.  Perhaps only experience playing in public will help.  Unfortunately, my students only play in public a few times each year, and this is obviousy not enough for some of them to perform well at the year-end recital. 

[nanabush]

Same thing happened to me.  It was a piano/voice recital (5 of the vocal teacher's students, 15 of mine).  The songs were all 3-4 minutes, and half of my students only played 40 second pieces, so the time balanced out well.

I accompanied 2 older singers and the voice teacher (pop-rock music, so it was really fun because I got to do whatever I wanted ), and I played a solo piece after, and they all went fine.  1/2 of my students made REALLY dumb mistakes, as in starting on the completely wrong notes, and continuing to play without even fixing anything - then 30 seconds later restarting; or stopping for like 20 seconds staring awkwardly then restarting the piece!

I even held mock 'recital' settings, and would have 4-5 people sit in the room while some of my students would play in the lessons leading up to it.

The main reason students said they messed up was because "the piano sucked", but I can't accept that as a reason!  It's ridiculous.  I noticed a trend that the kids who had to REALLY practice in the last few days to make their piece decent butchered it at the recital.  The kids/adults who actually practice regularly and enjoy playing didn't make any big mistakes (some slips here and there but they were confident enough to play through them.  I appreciated that a lot!)

It's impossible for me to hold a perfect recital, because the parents who are super into it unfortunately have lazy-a$$es for kids who don't want to do anything but eat extra cheesy doritos and watch Glee (I'm not knocking the show, just an example).  These kids come to the recital, brutalize a 1 minute piece for 2 minutes, and then complain about the piano.

[sarah_antoinette]

I think mistakes will always happen. They happened to me all through my childhood and college years. It's more about the experience and the fact that they did something most adults would freak out in doing.

That said, I DO think it's important to prepare students as much as possible. I always talk it up in my studio for a couple months, and we prepare pieces and "practice performing" (complete with bows, and bringing family members in if they're around:) for 4-6 weeks before. I also have found it's really good to keep going over exactly what's going to happen (especially younger kids who may have never been to a recital before). I forget that even saying "all the kids I teach will be there, and everyone will play their songs one at a time," might be telling them something they don't know:)

I also like them to know before they perform I'm proud of them even if they make mistakes, and like to make sure their parents do something special for them after. It makes it a lot of fun, takes the pressure off, and so far almost all my students love recitals and have done very well.

[krystellle]

But you only talk about notes and rythms.  What about the musical essence of recital?  Is really important that ALL the notes are there?  That  might be a memory slip here and there?  One of my former teachers had  recital of all her young students a few months ago.  What really impressed me was musical training and essence of  recital.  They all played with such verve and elan.  It was so exciting!  And I'm talking about kulau sonatinas and obscure children's teaching material.  They had so much fun.  And the audience did too!

[pianowolfi]

Simple question: Do you think it is possible to hold a recital where all the notes and rhythms are perfect? Seems no matter how hard I try there are always issues with wrong notes because of nervousness. What do you think about this?

Yes it is possible. fahl5 has proven it: the glorious mistakeless perfect future of music:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=42293.msg465722#msg465722

 

(Warning: this post might contain subtle irony  )

[fleetfingers]

I noticed a trend that the kids who had to REALLY practice in the last few days to make their piece decent butchered it at the recital.  The kids/adults who actually practice regularly and enjoy playing didn't make any big mistakes

I have found this to be true and, instead of having my students play their latest piece, I have them perform one that they finished learning about 4-6 weeks prior to the recital. That way, they have a month or so to perform the piece at home and in lessons because the practicing is already done. They have plenty of time to become familiar with the music and make it their own. It works pretty well, but of course, it'll never be perfect.

[lukebar]

I try to explain to students how professional musicians learn their repertoire well in advance of any public performance, and make sure they have plenty of informal, unthreatening opportunities to try out new pieces before playing them in a concert situation where it really counts. Even at university, I seem to remember many students going into their Senior recital really nervous because, although they knew their repertoire well, this was going to be their first 'public' performance of a lot of it. That's not a very healthy way to operate in my opinion unless you have nerves of steel. (I do not.)

The issue I struggle with in my studio is that my students, for the most part, are not interested in performing repertoire that they are 'done' with (I despise that concept!). They could give such a relaxed polished performance of something that they've had in their fingers for a while- maybe that they have played in a festival or competition already. But they seem to thrive on the adrenaline rush of doing only their latest and greatest piece on studio recitals. The others are all "been there, done that."

In a few cases, I've had students give a "recital jury" of their pieces about a month or so before the recital. I make sure to scrounge up at least a handful or so of listeners who the student does not know and should supply the requisite "performance anxiety". Then, we decide together if they are truly ready to play this piece on the recital, or if it would be a better idea to choose an alternative. I make it clear that my concerns are not so much in their lack of ability, but in my desire for them to have a positive performing experience.

I've learned that it really isn't the size of the audience that causes nerves, but rather the comfort level one has with them. Playing in front of a handful of strangers can let you know right away if you have something learned securely enough to put it on public display. As of yet, I have not found a way to simulate this experience- to mentally put oneself in the mindset of playing before an audience- without actually doing it.

[keypeg]

Should that be the goal?  What is the purpose of a recital?

[pianoplayjl]

No no it's not possible but I think it is  possible to have a perfect expression detail in your pieces

[mcdiddy1]

My goal for the recital is to prepare students to be successful in their performance. I think the question is what defines a success. My definition is not necessarly perfect notes and rhythm but rather students playing to their relative ability. My main question is has anyone taught a large number of students and every student played as well if not better as they do in their lesson? I find nerves play too great a factor for most students and even me for that matter and I have never seen  a recital like this.

[cjp_piano]

Who cares about perfect!?!  Have you yourself ever played a "perfect" recital? There's no such thing as perfect. Don't you care more that your students can handle themselves, cover mistakes, be confident no matter what, keep the flow, and play musically?!?!

[kellyc]

 I find this such a fascinating subject. Since I'm still a student, albeit a very advanced student, I have found it interesting that I could play in front of a thousand normal people and feel quite comfortable, but the thought of playing let say in front of Martha Agerich turns me to Jelly. Just as a side note when I was 18 , my teacher made me take drama for a year. Yes I know acting is not playing the piano, but it gets you used to being in front of an audience.

The last point and its one that I'm not sure there is a really good answer to, and that is , it has been my experience that far to many students don't learn there pieces well enough.  It might seem like they know them, but they just haven't polished off that last few pct that gives them reserves for distractions, problems, nerves, or any other factor that might occur when playing before people.

That all being said , I have heard it said that if your not making mistakes, your not pushing your art hard enough. 

To answer the original question: No I don't think you can have a perfect recital , in fact I don't think its even a real concept.  What you can have is a memorable recital.


Kelly

[starstruck5]

Yes it is possible. fahl5 has proven it: the glorious mistakeless perfect future of music:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=42293.msg465722#msg465722

 

(Warning: this post might contain subtle irony  )

   What if there was a powercut though?

[mcdiddy1]

Who cares about perfect!?!  Have you yourself ever played a "perfect" recital? There's no such thing as perfect. Don't you care more that your students can handle themselves, cover mistakes, be confident no matter what, keep the flow, and play musically?!?!

Everyone cares about perfection. Especially in music we strive for it. It is not like math where you pass if you get 70 percent right. If we get 70 percent of the right notes, then we are playing a different piece.  There is nothing wrong with striving for perfection as long you have the understanding you may not achieve it all the time in every situation. Like I said earlier, when I say perfect I don't mean perfect notes and rhythm but more perfect for their situation in the sense they play to the absolute best of their abilities in that moment. What sounds perfect to me may not sound perfect to someone eles so that notion is all relative. I notice many students do not play beyond what they achieved in past lessons due to stage fright, nerves, etc and was wondering if anyone had a recital where they expanded on how they played previously.

To answer the original question: No I don't think you can have a perfect recital , in fact I don't think its even a real concept.  What you can have is a memorable recital.

Kelly

 

I agree with you. I think perfection is a myth. I think it is much more realistic for the students and audience to come away with a sense of pride and accomplishment over a note perfect performances.

[cjp_piano]

Everyone cares about perfection. ...Like I said earlier, when I say perfect I don't mean perfect notes and rhythm but more perfect for their situation in the sense they play to the absolute best of their abilities in that moment.

Hm, you didn't mean perfect notes and rhythms? This is your post:

Do you think it is possible to hold a recital where all the notes and rhythms are perfect?

[keypeg]

My goal for the recital is to prepare students to be successful in their performance.

Do you mean your goal for the particular recital?  Your answer makes sense for that.
I was thinking - what is the goal or reason for recitals, period?

[keypeg]

Expanding on that.  I think the purpose of recitals is for students to get the experience of performing, learning what it's about, getting used to it.  The purpose of recitals is not to give perfect entertainment for an audience as is the case for paid performances by professionals.  It is also not to place themselves or their teacher under judgment, as might happen in competitions (and I have some problem with the idea of competitions when we are talking about an art.)

When we learn to do things, then we make mistakes. When you learn to ride a bike, you might fall.  The mistakes teach us things and we grow through them.  When I played in my first recital, I ended up playing faster and faster.  It's a normal thing but I had never performed, so it was a new experience.  The next time I was ready for it, and could keep my tempo.  And so on.  The experience of recitals teaches you things.  Failing at a recital, surviving it, learning from it -- knowing you can survive - is a lesson.

I think that at recitals students should want to play as perfectly as possible, because part of performance means being prepared.  But the goal is not perfection.  The goal is to gain that experience and get used to it.

[mcdiddy1]

Hm, you didn't mean perfect notes and rhythms? This is your post:

Like I said before, playing the right notes and rhythms are expected when we talk about music. Musicians are so pick about about notes and rhythms several note errors in a row is considered a very poor performance. So playing the correct notes and rhythm is not that unique or special in higher levels of music performance. What I am referring to is if it is possible to perform the music well under the stress of performing a recital. What I am interested is if people have had experiences where the standard of excellence is among a wide variety of students rather than a few

Expecting perfection from students performing simple pieces like Mary had a little lamb is very different from expecting perfection in playing a Chopin ballade but that doesn't make the pursuit of perfection to be a dirty word. I dont know why you are so emotionally charged by the word perfect but there is nothing wrong with expecting students to play all the right notes and rhythms and I don't find that particularly unreasonable or cruel.

By the way, I think I would know what I was asking particuliar with me starting the topic.

[mcdiddy1]

Expanding on that.  I think the purpose of recitals is for students to get the experience of performing, learning what it's about, getting used to it.  The purpose of recitals is not to give perfect entertainment for an audience as is the case for paid performances by professionals.  It is also not to place themselves or their teacher under judgment, as might happen in competitions (and I have some problem with the idea of competitions when we are talking about an art.)

When we learn to do things, then we make mistakes. When you learn to ride a bike, you might fall.  The mistakes teach us things and we grow through them.  When I played in my first recital, I ended up playing faster and faster.  It's a normal thing but I had never performed, so it was a new experience.  The next time I was ready for it, and could keep my tempo.  And so on.  The experience of recitals teaches you things.  Failing at a recital, surviving it, learning from it -- knowing you can survive - is a lesson.

I think that at recitals students should want to play as perfectly as possible, because part of performance means being prepared.  But the goal is not perfection.  The goal is to gain that experience and get used to it.

You pretty much answered the question you asked.  The concept of a recital being a learning experience to deal with mishaps, nerves, adjustments etc are noble goals of teachers. However realistically there is the element of demonstrating to parents what you have achieved in the time you have been studying. Unfortunately we are often in an environment where we are judged and compared to other people and performances. In my experience it is rare for people to listen to music just to enjoy the music rather than analyze and compare performances. When I pose the question, I come more of an inquiery of the potential the maximize the preparedness of the student to where nerves do not affect them. It was not intended merely to have students play notes and rhythms perfectly but so they can achieve success and be more motivated to continue to play. As a teacher it os frustrating to watch a well prepared student falter due to nerves and feel the do not have the potential to do better.

[cjp_piano]

Expanding on that.  I think the purpose of recitals is for students to get the experience of performing, learning what it's about, getting used to it.  The purpose of recitals is not to give perfect entertainment for an audience as is the case for paid performances by professionals.  It is also not to place themselves or their teacher under judgment, as might happen in competitions (and I have some problem with the idea of competitions when we are talking about an art.)

When we learn to do things, then we make mistakes. When you learn to ride a bike, you might fall.  The mistakes teach us things and we grow through them.  When I played in my first recital, I ended up playing faster and faster.  It's a normal thing but I had never performed, so it was a new experience.  The next time I was ready for it, and could keep my tempo.  And so on.  The experience of recitals teaches you things.  Failing at a recital, surviving it, learning from it -- knowing you can survive - is a lesson.

I think that at recitals students should want to play as perfectly as possible, because part of performance means being prepared.  But the goal is not perfection.  The goal is to gain that experience and get used to it.

Well said!

[cjp_piano]

By the way, I think I would know what I was asking particuliar with me starting the topic.

No need to get all worked up. I wasn't trying to offend you, I was just confused because you said notes and rhythms, so I was responding to the idea of perfect notes and rhythms.

What I am referring to is if it is possible to perform the music well under the stress of performing a recital. What I am interested is if people have had experiences where the standard of excellence is among a wide variety of students rather than a few.

Yes, I think it's possible. Some are more naturally inclined to be better under pressure, but the others can gain experience and do great.[/quote]

I dont know why you are so emotionally charged by the word perfect but there is nothing wrong with expecting students to play all the right notes and rhythms and I don't find that particularly unreasonable or cruel.

I'm not sure what you mean by "emotionally charged" by the word perfect, it's just that we don't really live in a perfect world. If you see a beautiful tree outside the window, is it perfect? What IS a perfect tree? The beautiful tree I see outside my window isn't exactly symmetrical with evenly spaced branches. But I may call it "perfect" because it's beautiful.

Anyway, I understand what you mean now, it really doesn't have anything to do with "perfection", so sorry to pull the discussion into that.

[keypeg]

You pretty much answered the question you asked.  The concept of a recital being a learning experience to deal with mishaps, nerves, adjustments etc are noble goals of teachers. However realistically there is the element of demonstrating to parents what you have achieved in the time you have been studying. Unfortunately we are often in an environment where we are judged and compared to other people and performances. In my experience it is rare for people to listen to music just to enjoy the music rather than analyze and compare performances.

You are describing something I have learned about since joining forums.  It's like the public-relations / business end.  This idea of performances being judged rather than enjoyed was a new one to me at the time.  If this is a mentality that you have to contend with or risk losing customers then I guess that you have to make some compromises in that direction.  I think maybe these parents are doing their children a disservice.  But we have similar nonsense in school systems with tests and such.  

there is the element of demonstrating to parents what you have achieved in the time you have been studying - Although I understand what you are saying and why it might be necessary, I disagree with the premise behind this.  Good grief - the student is home every day practicing, with parents hearing that practice and hopefully involved if the child is young - how can the parent not know what is being achieved?  It is in their face every day!  I had to think about what you wrote.  When I attended my child's recitals, the thought never crossed my mind that I would be finding out what he had "achieved".  What he played that day was one of many pieces that he played during his studies.  It was a celebration, maybe, and a chance to play in public - but not to show "what had been achieved".  That is much more than a piece which is over in a few minutes.

I have to admit that the idea of comparing and judging bother me.  I was a student after my child and our times as students overlapped somewhat.  When you see someone who plays well, then you ask yourself what he is doing to make it sound so good, and try to learn from that - no?  Why should these attitudes come in?  Unfortunately many school systems foster it.

It is unfortunate that those realities come into it, societies being what they are in many places.

As a teacher it is frustrating to watch a well prepared student falter due to nerves and feel the do not have the potential to do better.

That is for understandable - and of course, students also want to play well and not falter due to nerves.

[mcdiddy1]

No need to get all worked up. I wasn't trying to offend you, I was just confused because you said notes and rhythms, so I was responding to the idea of perfect notes and rhythms.

I'm not offended or worked up. I could have been more clear in what I was asking.

I'm not sure what you mean by "emotionally charged" by the word perfect, it's just that we don't really live in a perfect world. If you see a beautiful tree outside the window, is it perfect? What IS a perfect tree? The beautiful tree I see outside my window isn't exactly symmetrical with evenly spaced branches. But I may call it "perfect" because it's beautiful.

I think music appreciation of finding beauty in the uniqueness of a piece despite flaws is true and works well philosophically. However if a student intends to play a beautiful piece in in D major and leaves out the F sharps, he may produce a beautiful piece in d minor but it was not the what the intent was. So if the purpose was to produce a redwood tree which is beautiful and you produce a beautiful Christmas tree  () the problem is the goal wasn't realized and ultimately the student may feel disappointed unfortunatly. I agree we should look for the beauty of music however if you produce a number or trees that are not the intended goal then the parents will look at the teacher funny in the end

[keypeg]

..... however if you produce a number or trees that are not the intended goal then the parents will look at the teacher funny in the end

There is the fundamental problem in a nutshell to learning and teaching: the necessity of an expert to please non-experts who pay the piper.  We have it in the school system as well, where teachers have to teach toward tests and are thus hampered from actually teaching because the public is fed the idea this this "proves learning".  I would say that these particular trees are not the intended goal.  Producing a particular piece is not the goal at all - the work on a piece is a means to a goal.  The goal is to get skills, knowledge about music, sensitivity and awareness - all of which you can use to make music.  Accidentally turning a piece into a variation in its parallel minor key, understanding what you did, and being able to hear and and deliberately do it with other music ---- that is fantastic learning!  But if the expectations are rigid and narrow, so that success is defined by accurate producing a piece according to current expectations, then the teacher and the student are both hampered.  At the end of the day, society's expectations also affects the student of any age who wants to really learn, because things will be geared toward those expectations.  Of course then you can make a pact with the teacher to prepare the token piece for public consumption, but that the real learning will be beyond and above that, with other things.

[cjp_piano]

Producing a particular piece is not the goal at all - the work on a piece is a means to a goal.  The goal is to get skills, knowledge about music, sensitivity and awareness - all of which you can use to make music.  Accidentally turning a piece into a variation in its parallel minor key, understanding what you did, and being able to hear and and deliberately do it with other music ---- that is fantastic learning! 

Things brings up the whole idea of recitals in general. I've wondered about a way to have a "recital" but not call it a recital. I like "celebration" or something. Has anyone done some kind of thing like this where it's not the usual formal, serious, nerve-wracking recital, but more of a comfortable music sharing experience?

[cjp_piano]

I love this quote from William Westney's "The Perfect Wrong Note:"

Parental expectations, so crucial to a child's psyche, can create perplexity for virtually any music student. The parents of toddlers greet their children's bumbling attempts at learning to walk with cheerful acceptance, support, smiles, and hugs. But take that same child and same parent, roll the imaginary tape forward several years, and picture the child practicing for a piano lesson in the den while the parent is busy in the kitchen. Child hits an obvious wrong note: an F-sharp that should have been an F. Parent calls out, "I heard that -- be more careful! Your lesson is tomorrow, and we're paying good money for those lessons!" The parental view of imperfections seems to have reversed itself, yet the child no more meant to play a wrong note than he had meant to lose his balance as a toddler."

[keypeg]

Does this perhaps suggest some guidance of the parents?  In fact, this seems a funny kind of circle, where teachers must meet parental expectations, and so send out signals that form those parental expectations, but are based on those expectations ... um, getting dizzy.

[mcdiddy1]

There is the fundamental problem in a nutshell to learning and teaching: the necessity of an expert to please non-experts who pay the piper.  We have it in the school system as well, where teachers have to teach toward tests and are thus hampered from actually teaching because the public is fed the idea this this "proves learning".  I would say that these particular trees are not the intended goal.  Producing a particular piece is not the goal at all - the work on a piece is a means to a goal.  The goal is to get skills, knowledge about music, sensitivity and awareness - all of which you can use to make music.  Accidentally turning a piece into a variation in its parallel minor key, understanding what you did, and being able to hear and and deliberately do it with other music ---- that is fantastic learning!  But if the expectations are rigid and narrow, so that success is defined by accurate producing a piece according to current expectations, then the teacher and the student are both hampered.  At the end of the day, society's expectations also affects the student of any age who wants to really learn, because things will be geared toward those expectations.  Of course then you can make a pact with the teacher to prepare the token piece for public consumption, but that the real learning will be beyond and above that, with other things.

That is the heart of the problem. There is a fear that allowing teachers to have more freedom in what they are teaching there will be a lack of accountability in what the teacher teachers, students performing at various levels and a lack of high standards. On the other hand the consequence of having high standards and competencies is the what ends up happening is teachers leaving individualism, creativity behind and teach toward a test or a recital or some kind of assessment at the risk of being replaced by someone who follows the rules of the system.Ideally the teacher should teach at a high level to where the student has the skills to succeed easily on forms of assessment and still have assignments where individual achievement is celebrated and needs and deficiencies are met. I think this much easier said then done but good teaching should be able to survive that dilemmas. I think however it is very easy to lean in to either camps while trying to straddle the fence to get the best of both worlds

I personally have struggled with these issues and because of these conflicts I have experimented with not allowing students to be in a recital despite students who do not perform in recitals tend to not stick with music. I have a student who just learned how to hold the bow of the violin and the parents are already asking when their student will play in the recital. One of the unsaid reasons for recitals is they are held for parents to hear other kids and compare their progress in comparison. I do not agree with or think it is fair but I do know it is real. We are constantly comparing performances to others and who plays better than whom and to me it should not matter but these are the consequences of wanting students to be accountable, achieve high standards, and experience success is pressure on the teacher to make it happen and then treating each student like a number on a test or a potential performer who must be flawless.

[mcdiddy1]

Things brings up the whole idea of recitals in general. I've wondered about a way to have a "recital" but not call it a recital. I like "celebration" or something. Has anyone done some kind of thing like this where it's not the usual formal, serious, nerve-wracking recital, but more of a comfortable music sharing experience?

My piano teacher had a type of masterclass every week where it was not serious or formal and music sharing experience. To me it was just as stressful as any recital. I still did not want to go and make a fool of myself, especially in front of my peers. I think nerves do not come from whether it is formal or serious but our perception of who the audience is. For playing in front of an audience filled with musicians and music teachers who know every note and hear every flaw is much less daunting than a easy going public who are just happy to hear some music played for them. I think the best thing my teacher did for us was take us to nursing homes where the audience was less musically sophisticated although the piano professor and peers were listening too. I think we have to focus on our personal perceptions of performance rather than on what our environment is.