Which steinway D sounds better in these recordings?

[noambenhamou]

Hi everyone. Some of you may know from recent posts, I recently got my new Steinway D from the factory.
I had a loaner D (1993) for about 2 months while I was waiting for the new D to be shipped from NY.

I uploaded 2 recordings of me playing the same piece with same same mics and the exact same setup.

I want to get your opinions of which sounds better. I actually think the old D sounds much better, seems to have better sustain, and a richer sound.

My new D is still a working progress, the tech says it's still very green. We only had a chance to do 4 hours of voicing on it and we are not even close to being done.

I really hope this new D will end up being better than the old one. Maybe it just needs to be broken in for 6 months? Or maybe it's just not as good as the old one...

Appreciate and comments.

PS - the new D needs to be regulated and has not been yet, so my "soft" playing with the right hand is not as precise.

[keys60]

Recordings are not going to provide a true representation of what each piano sounds like.
The new piano has more of a bell like tone instead of that "stringy" tone that the old D has. Aslo, it sounds like the unisons are tuned purer on the new D. Could be the most recently tuned piano is why, although at that age, stability is still a factor.
 I hear what you are saying though. You seem to get a wider range of dynamics and expression from the old D. I can practically hear the keys hitting the keybed on the new D and your not getting  the power you asked of it.
 New strings have to stretch, new hammers have to compact. Could be many facets. I'm sure its built as well as the old one, just took on a different character. Steinway actually prides themselves in that, making a different sounding piano for different tastes, unlike the Asian manufacturers.
 Hows the voicing going?? Even after a certain percentage, you should get an idea of if it meets your expectations or not.
 Meanwhile, hope you enjoy your new D. Too much $$ spent to not be happy.

[pianolive]

The reason why an experienced tech should be present when you buy a new D, is that he/she can imagine what the piano will be like in 3 years, which is the time it takes for the piano to settle.
Normally we say that a D will be on top when it is 5 years old untill it is 15 years old. Then it starts aging. Depending on how it is played and served it can actually be killed within 10 years.
Now you have a great advantage if this is your personal piano and you are the only player, because the way you play will form the sound of the piano and after 3 years you might have the great instrument you payed for. It gives back what you put into it! And having an experienced tech helping you everything wil be just fine. Congratulations and good luck.

[noambenhamou]

"The new piano has more of a bell like tone instead of that "stringy" tone that the old D has. Aslo, it sounds like the unisons are tuned purer on the new D. Could be the most recently tuned piano is why, although at that age, stability is still a factor."
I agree with these two arguments/facts completely. I couldn't have described it better myself. The old D sounds stringy, and the new sounds more bell like. As if the new D, you can hear the hammers hitting the string as the old D, you just hear the strings.
The old D may have not been tuned for a long time, who knows. It was just a loaner.

Could it be that I just got "used" to the sound of the old D since I had it for much longer than the new D? Or is the sound of the old D just simply "better"?

It seems that for the new D to have more of the sound of the old D, that the hammers would have to be hardened a bit. But by making the hammers harder, you also increase the overall loudness of the piano. But the old D was already quieter than the new D and I'm finding the new D to already be a bit too loud.

The old D needed new hammers badly. They were completely worn out and flat at the top and no more room for reshaping hammers.

I was thinking about it some more last night, the new D just sounds NEW. It's as if the imperfections of the old D were somehow beautiful, like they added overall color to the notes.

If I never had the loaner D, I would be very happy with the new one.
The tech said that that the hammers on my D are way too wide at the shoulders. He will reshape the hammers, which will change the sound and also lighten up the action which seems a bit heavy for me. He also said that he will decrease how far the white keys go down, that they come down too far, and also I'll have him lower the black keys just a tiny bit. We really just barely began voicing the piano.

Thank you both for taking the time to listen and voice your opinions. I'll be showing this thread to my tech on wednesday when he comes again for a good 6 hour session on my piano.

[keys60]

Most professional recordings I listen to of D's seem to have that bell like tone, super clean unisons. Some people actually prefer that slight twang of an older piano, me being one of them, but with my ears now 50 years old and also moving along as a piano tech (with a lot to learn, I might add) I'm starting to realize that that soft bell like tone is what is to be achieved with a pianos tone.

Also, some people even prefer a tuning where the unisons are not tuned optimally, just ever so slightly off yet for the most part, beatless. It tends to give the piano a little more twang instead of clarityh. I'd love to say perfectly tuned but we try to leave that word alone. There is no perfect.

My daughters piano teacher has an O with old worn hammers, action and strings. I tune this piano. I hate the tone. Its glassy and metallic. She loves it. Who's right?? Sound is like art and its beauty is in the ears of the beholder.

You're D is too loud? I would probably say "wow, what power!" Go figure.

Sounds like your tech knows what he's doing and I don't thinks this thread will sway or advise him in any way and it shouldn't. The only thing that should sway him is what you, the owner likes and how to please your tastes.

Once again, enjoy that D and may you have a wonderful relationship.

[withindale]

Just briefly. When I was wondering what to do about the hammers on a 1925 German upright I was referred to Professor Scarton's US patent 5573862 (Google for it). This contains experimental results on the "dynamic hardness" of Steinway hammers. These show why voicing the hammers in a new piano is necessary - there are variations in dynamic hardness from hammer to hammer you need to correct, and intonation is ultimately a personal matter as everyone is saying. The measurements of hammers striking a flat plate indicate that grooves increase the production of metallic overtones. It appears these are at the expense of the fundamentals, so individual notes may have more "character" but less power and bell like qualities will be lost.   

[keys60]

Withindale.

Good point and I'm surprised I didn't think of posting that.
So true, that as the strings oxidize, the metallic residue transfers to the hammers contact points. Notice the bass strings leave green oxidization on the hammers and the steel strings that rust discolor the hammers. Although oxidized, that corrosion still has metallic properties. Hence the reshaping of hammers that have aged. Most of that gets removed.

[withindale]

Keys60

Yes, also the flattened hard felt in the groove does not excite the string in the same way as a new or a reshaped hammer. Apparently the ends of the grooves prevent some of the fundamental ripples spreading out from the strike point and the result is more higher frequency overtones.

Ian

[noambenhamou]

Is it weird of me to like those higher frequency overtones?

[john90]

I think both pianos sound fantastic. I would focus on getting the action setup now. I guess you are already.

[noambenhamou]

yes indeed. On wednesday we are making the white keys not press down as much as they do, and I already lowered the black keys myself last night about 1mm because they were too high for my taste.
My tech will shave off a gram or two of felt from the hammers to lighten up the action abit, and after all this, do a complete regulation. I'm very excited for this, it will totally transform the action of the piano to the point where I won't be able to play any other piano haha

[quantum]

There is a downside to making your home piano too perfect.  When you go to perform on other instruments, including concert venues, you may feel that these pianos are inferior to your own.  There is some magic that happens when you are inspired by 1st class instruments you can only access by playing in concert or recording venues. 

One of my teachers (a concert pianist with numerous recordings to his name), recommended that I choose a practice instrument that will allow room for that magical inspiration which comes in playing concert instruments. 

[withindale]

"Is it weird of me to like those higher frequency overtones?"

No, it's the challenge for your tech to bring the best out of your piano for you! Then you'll appreciate those concert pianos all the more.

I do hope you will post a recording of the final results, and perhaps the intermediate ones as well.

Ian

[iumonito]

Hi Noam,

You keep asking these questions and it seems to me you have a much more fruitful path to get your answers if you were to educate yourself about these things.  Maybe you know this already and disagree, in which case: respect be with you.

In case these are unfamiliar to you, read a bit here:

https://stanwoodpiano.com/first.htm

and here:

https://www.overspianos.com.au/frameset.html

You have chosen a design, and a bit of craftmanship (not the best, in my opinion, but workable).  Now what you have left ahead of you is to maintain and customize your piano so that it is the way you like it.  For example, you seem to complain that the action is heavy.  I think you should ask yourself whether the time between you playing a key and sound coming back to you is slow (a voicing question), whether key dip is too great (an action adjustment question), or whether the hammers are too heavy (a remanufacturing question), or whether there is friction somewhere where there shouldn't be (partly adjustment, partly re-manufacturing, partly design).

The action is heavy is just too underdeveloped a question.  Ask why, rather than just lament or second guess that this piano can't be what you dream.  It can.

[noambenhamou]

Thanks for everyone's comments.
So here is what the tech did, and attached is a recording after the work noted below:
1) we measured the touchweight of the old D. 38 Grams!!! Super light action. So he sanded dound much of the hammer felt in the shoulders. We also took out the stapels. He said that he has done this many times while preparing steinways at carnegie hall. He also sanded down the top of the hammer because he said that the tip of the hammer was hard, but only at the very surface which is not good.
2) took out the all the keys and enlarged the whole in the middle where the keys slide in. He said that he's never seen a new steinway that didn't need this done.
3) Made the white keys not press as deep
4) regulated the action
5) made the dampers go up only after pressing the keys about 2-3mm. Out of the factory, the dampers were going up instantly.
6) voiced and voiced.


All this took about 10 hours.

Here is where he left of for next visit in about 1.5 weeks:
1) more regulation.
2) I need to decide between a full shift or a half shift. I like full shift but my left foot is pretty good at using everything in between as well.
3) he said there is a TON more voicing to be done.

I feel like we are moving in the right direction. It will take me a while to get over the 38gram downweight of the old D, now we are at around 45g in the middle which I don't want to go lower because I won't be able to play any other pianos.
The old D still sounds a bit better - seems to have more natural reverb/echo but it's almost hard to tell the difference between the old D and the new one. The good news, is that the new one has some things about it that I like better which makes me pretty optimistic.

For non-piano techs, voicing seems a bit unreal until you experience it first hand. There is a natural inclination when I hear a piano to think - "that's just how this piano sounds, and that's final".

I'll keep you all posted if you are interested. For the first 2 months the piano is here, I'll be having the tech come in at least 2x per month. After that when I'm happy, probably once every 2 months, but only after everything settles in.

[iumonito]

That.  Sounds.  Great.



We could talk hours about grams.  You have heard the stories about Horowitz's pianos?  The one he used for ages, in most of those great recordings, was very very light.  After Horowitz's death, Steinway re-regulated the piano back to normal specs, for it "did not represent what a Steinway is" and then shipped it around on tour as Horowitz's piano.  A crime against humanity, in my opinion.

I like what I hear you say when you say "natural tendency."  Between the lines I hear you say "but there is more to it than meets the ear at first audition."

I'll follow this development closely, if you don't mind.  Post more recordings soon.  Nice Rachmaninov, by the way.

[noambenhamou]

thank you iumonito.
Yes, the old D was probably like Horowitz who played flat fingered. 38grams downweight is VERY light action. Anything under 50 is light. Anything over 55 is on the heavier side.

My suspicion this "natural" tendency for the older D to have more reverb/echo is due to how sensitive and responsive the sustain pedal is. And perhaps the damper springs may not be as strong as on the new D. Do the springs loose strength over time? I would think they do.

Regardless, I will go to the steinway store to study the older D a bit today to see how the sustain pedal is set up. It's very easy to adjust on the new D.

Another option and I hope it is not, is that the soundboard on the older D resonates for a few milliseconds more than the new D after a note is played.

Sooner or later I'll have to stop comparing to the older D and just bring out the unique potentials that MY piano has to offer, which as my tech says and is unfortunate, my new D is a: "canon, it can be voiced down, but it's natural tendency is to emit lots and lots of volume". Which I think is why I selected it out of the bunch - I wanted to know my piano can potentially easily overpower an entire orchestra. For an apartment it is not ideal, but just knowing it can is kind of cool.

[withindale]

The old D still sounds a bit better - seems to have more natural reverb/echo but it's almost hard to tell the difference between the old D and the new one. The good news, is that the new one has some things about it that I like better which makes me pretty optimistic. For non-piano techs, voicing seems a bit unreal until you experience it first hand. There is a natural inclination when I hear a piano to think - "that's just how this piano sounds, and that's final".

After hearing the fine recording of the partly voiced new D, I'd say it's time to attend to the hammers on the old one!

Ian

[noambenhamou]

thank you for that withindale.

[keys60]

Don't mean to drive you or your tech crazy, but there is a new device on the market called Touchrail that makes adjusting the weight of actions much easier than regulating every note individually.

https://www.pitchlock.com/touchrail.shtml

[noambenhamou]

I went to the steinway store to check out my old D again. (I know, i'm driving myself crazy) and I noticed something very different between the pianos which has nothing to do with voicing.
I was trying to see hwy the old D had a more natural echo. My hunch was that the dampers springs weren't as strong as on the new D.
I hit any key mid range staccato Forte and I heard the same note being resonated for about 1 second. So I did another test, I hit the same note again and immediately after pressed down on the damper hard with my other hand. But again - that same note was resonating quite loudly for another second. I did a 3rd test and after hitting that middle C again, I pressed down on the damper AND I put my fingers on the string for extra dampening. The echo was definatly coming from the soundboard inside the piano. It was a very noticeable round warm tone either the same note or 1 octave higher. As if that sound board was seriously vibrating from that note.

Then I went home and tried the same thing on my new D. Hitting a note staccato pretty loud, but it immediatly vanishes. Maybe some very quick high pitch resonations from the open strings at the very right of the piano, but very short and faint.

This is not in my head, and not part of the room acoustics. If anything, my apartment is much more live acoustically speaking. After hitting a note on the old D, it you can clearly still hear that note for about a second coming not from the string that was hit, but from inside the piano itself.

Can anyone explain the difference of what exactly I have noticed here? Could it be due to age? Do older piano have this charactoristic? Maybe it has something to do with the pressure from the downbearing?

I'm open to any ideas. Very curious.



sorry guys - I just read this online - very interesting:
"You can tell when an older piano loses the crown of the soundboard, as it will have a longer after-ring that cannot be stopped with the dampers."

[iumonito]

I love that you answered your own question.  Bravo!

Soundboards are particularly misunderstood, and hence you will hear lots of lore around he little bit of science on the question.

Rather than loss of crown (which while it may be a fact, I doubt it is a cause), I would put my money on downbearing.

Although in your D this is adjustable, this is an adjustment rarely made.  Ask your tech.

A couple other areas of study should be they why and what if's of the Mason metal spider under their pianos (the tension resonator), and then the why and what if's of the ribs in the Overs soundboard.  Then investigate a bit what a cut-off bar is supposed to do.

Then you get get to the rim, and more mystery ensues!

[keys60]

.....or as simple as, the dampers on the new D are new soft felt with new damper wires that have proper adjustment and tension on the strings. Dampers, like hammers, get hard and compact as well as picking up metallic residue from string corrosion. The strings will have a tendency to keep vibrating of not dampened properly.  If they were to be replaced and wires adjusted, you may get that note cut right off just like on the new D.

 From what I've been told about the myth of the M and H "tension resonator" is, that was just to correct a mistake. The inner rim of Mason Hamlins had a tendency to warp so that turnbuckle style spider rectified the problem. To save face, it became the tension resonator, made to appear like its actually improving sound, exclusive to M and H.

[noambenhamou]

iumonito, thanks for your comments.
My tech is coming tomorrow and last time he was here we spoke about the downbearing and he said the only way to adjust it is to unstring the piano, and lift the 500 pound plate.
Are you telling me there is an easier way to mess with the downbearing pressure?

I see your point as to the old D not likely to have a bad sounboard. 20 years old is very unlikely.
Also, my question is, what is normally preferred? Alot of "after-ring" or immediate silence after hitting a note?

[iumonito]

You want the sound to stop when the damper touches the string, and I think generally it does.

Yup, to adjust downbearing you would have to restring.  But even when restringing this is rarely messed with.  LOTS can go wrong with this adjustment, and if not properly done, you may find yourself in the unfortunate situation of needing a soundboard replacement.

But, it IS adjustable, which in my book unfortunately means that it is subject in individual pianos to have been improperly done at the factory.  Unusual to be awful, but possible.

The thing is, when it comes to craftmanship and quality control, Steinway simply is not in the same league with Yamaha and Kawai, let alone really well-made pianos like Bosendorfer, Steingraeber and Fazioli.  Unfortunately Bechstein has degraded to Steinway's level, and in lower-tier pianos I would actually assume this is not properly done, and you would be very lucky to find individual pianos that turn out correctly.

So, put it this way, if you have a problem with downbearing and detect it soon, this would be something to bring up right away under your warranty.  With a new piano like you just got, for what you paid, there is simply no justification for you just to live with it and wait until you are due for re-stringing, which may easily be 10 or 20 years from now.

[noambenhamou]

I'm returning this new D. I decided to go with the 1993 loaner D that I had for a month. Nomatter how good I think the new D sounds, the second I go to the steinway store and play the old D, within 5 seconds it's so obvious that it's a much better piano.

I think steinway is having a quality control issue or they are using cheap parts now. I don't think steinways are what they used to be.

[iumonito]

There is no substitute for taste in this things.  If you feel that way, there is no amount of voicing and tweaking that would make the soon to be rejected piano to your taste.

There is a book for everything. Not to change your mind, but some of these book by Vilayanur Ramachandran may be a good read for you.

Phantoms in the Brain : Probing the Mysteries of the Human Mind, coauthor Sandra Blakeslee, 1998, ISBN 0-688-17217-2

The Encyclopedia of the Human Brain (editor-in-chief) ISBN 0-12-227210-2

The Emerging Mind, 2003, ISBN 1-86197-303-9

A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness: From Impostor Poodles to Purple Numbers, 2005, ISBN 0-13-187278-8 (paperback edition)

The Tell-Tale Brain: A Neuroscientist's Quest for What Makes Us Human, 2010, ISBN 978-0-393-07782-7

Enjoy the 1993.  No regrets.

... but don't blame it on the new piano ... (at least not necessarily).

[john90]

You have spent quite a lot with this piano store already. If they are not offering you a good deal, have you thought about pushing for a good price on the other as well. It wouldn't take up that much more space.

[withindale]

The old D needed new hammers badly. They were completely worn out and flat at the top and no more room for reshaping hammers.

Interested to hear about the hammers? Are you going to replace them - with Steinways or, say, Ronsens?   

Ian

[john90]

Interested to hear about the hammers? Are you going to replace them - with Steinways or, say, Ronsens?   

I would say don't touch the hammers if it is the best piano you have ever played, you would be back to square 1. Enjoy the old D at its best, and have the new D ageing nicely to take over when the old D starts to go off.