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Topic: Liszt as a pianist.  (Read 3703 times)

Offline pianovlad1996

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Liszt as a pianist.
on: June 27, 2011, 09:25:08 AM
How was Liszt as a pianist?  :)
Current repertoire:
Bach Toccata in E minor
Beethoven Sonata op.110
Rachmaninov Corelli Variations
Liszt Paganini Etudes No.2 and 6.
Strauss Burlesque in d minor, Brahms piano concerto No.2.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #1 on: June 27, 2011, 09:42:05 AM
How was Liszt as a pianist?  :)
I cannot say, as I am not old enough to have heard him play; somehow, I doubt that anyone else here is, either...

Best,

Alistair
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #2 on: June 27, 2011, 10:31:07 AM
I cannot say, as I am not old enough to have heard him play; somehow, I doubt that anyone else here is, either...

.. however there are copious accounts of his playing available in the literature; perhaps most interesting being those emanating from the pupils at his Weimar masterclasses.
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Offline bleicher

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #3 on: June 27, 2011, 10:42:13 AM
A couple of days before a funeral I was involved in arranging, I had a phone call from the funeral director. They were very apologetic that, although they had got hold of a recording of 'Un Sospiro', they hadn't managed to get a version of it performed by the pianist I had requested. I was a bit puzzled by this as I hadn't requested a particular pianist, but the funeral director said 'it says here you requested Un Sospiro performed by Franz Liszt'. I had to explain that Liszt was the composer and, although I would love to hear a recording of him playing Un Sospiro, it wasn't going to be possible.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #4 on: June 27, 2011, 11:25:31 AM
.. however there are copious accounts of his playing available in the literature; perhaps most interesting being those emanating from the pupils at his Weimar masterclasses.
Of course there are - and, of the many so many people who claimed to be "pupils of Liszt", a not insignifcant number actually were at some point - and not only those who participated in those masterclasses. The problem nevertheless remains, however, that no one here can express thoughts about Liszt as a pianist - they can do no more than express thoughts about the views that those who heard him play expressed more than 125 years ago, which is quite a different matter.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline spencervirt

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #5 on: June 27, 2011, 05:19:41 PM
I agree and disagree here..

When Franz Liszt had to make Mazeppa (his seventh? transcendental etude) EASIER so that others could play it, he must have been a phenomenal pianist.

When Liszt sightread Chopin's etudes at full speed, he must have been even better.

We have countless historical examples of Liszt's impeccable technique at the piano which cannot be ignored.

While I agree that only a time-traveler could truly make a proper assessment, if we discarded relevant historical data as insufficient we would have much smaller history books in school.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #6 on: June 27, 2011, 06:55:02 PM
We cannot hear Liszt, but we can hear his pupils.

Perhaps when we listen to Rosenthal, who I have read modelled his playing on that of Liszt, then we can have a reasonably accurate glimpse of how Liszt sounded.

However, even when we listen to Rosenthal, we are listening to an older Rosenthal and not the younger volcano.

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Offline pianovlad1996

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #7 on: June 27, 2011, 06:59:58 PM
Thank you very much for your posts. ;D
Current repertoire:
Bach Toccata in E minor
Beethoven Sonata op.110
Rachmaninov Corelli Variations
Liszt Paganini Etudes No.2 and 6.
Strauss Burlesque in d minor, Brahms piano concerto No.2.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #8 on: June 27, 2011, 07:34:19 PM
Liszt as a pianist?  well Chopin found his playing "vulgar."  If we are speaking strictly of technical prowess there is no debate that he was phenomenal.  He was also followed by women wherever he went and really can be considered the first "rock star."

I will tell you my experience--and I've been playing for 4 decades--professionally for 20 and I've been teaching for 15--and yes I attended music school.   My whole life I have been under the impression that the Hungarian Rhapsody #2 was too difficult for me to even attempt.  Looking at the score was enough to scare me away--for years.   Recently I have started playing the piano 8-12 hours a day, just like when I was in college.  (yes after 40 years I was under the impression I had reached my peak, and it was no longer necessary to "practice."  WRONG :)  Anyhoo--I pulled out HR #2 and started to attempt it.  I have found that, though it is difficult, it is in no way impossible. Though I do not have it perfect yet, I know in time I will. 

Liszt was a master at making things sound way more difficult than they actually are.  He was a showman, "flash piano,"  --  not to diminish him in ANY WAY.   Now that I have a greater understanding of music theory, history, and the like--I have a greater understanding of him as a pianist and composer.  He was incredible, awesome, phenomenal--but MAYBE not the piano deity that history has portrayed him as.

this is just my opinion of course--but it is shared by many of my fellow long-time teachers.  If I had to choose, I would place Rach higher than Liszt as a pianist.  I welcome any argument to the contrary.


Offline noambenhamou

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #9 on: June 28, 2011, 04:50:49 PM
"When Liszt sightread Chopin's etudes at full speed, he must have been even better." rumors. People overtime tent to exhadurate. He might have sight read them at full speed, but he didn't hit all the notes. Maybe 80% of them. No doubt the rumors have truth to them, I bet he was an amazing sight reader. But a good sight reader does not guarantee a good pianist. There was a girl back in highschool who can sight read everything and made music. But she was a terrible pianist. She couldn't get past sight reading towards actual memorization and perfecting a piece.

I think Liszt as a pianist can be seen from his compositions and the difficulties of those pieces.
I was talking with my teacher about la campanella 4-5 trills plus thumb and I asked him "did he add the thumb to make it easier to control the rhythm of the trill because the trill alone is so hard?" and he replied "for Liszt that trill was probably child's play".
Probably :)

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011, 09:07:41 AM
error
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Offline sordel

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #11 on: July 05, 2011, 09:42:17 AM
He was also followed by women wherever he went and really can be considered the first "rock star."

If Liszt had had the foresight to understand what a rock star was, he would have properly given the title to his major inspiration, Paganini.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011, 09:47:56 AM
"Words cannot describe him as a pianist - he was incomparable and unapproachable. I have seen whole rows of his audience, men and women alike, affected to tears when he chose to be pathetic: in stormy passages he was able by his art to work them up to the highest pitch of excitement; through the medium of his instrument he played upon every human emotion. Rubinstein, Tausig and Bulow all admitted that they were mere children in comparison with Liszt"  Oscar Beringer.

During his concerting from Munich, Stuttgart, Strasbourg to Paris, Liszt convinces critics that even at the age of 12 he could play better than Moscheles and Hummel, the two great virtuosi of the day. Paris rhapsodized over him: reproductions of his portrait were to be seen everywhere, and the newspapers called him the second Mozart, the ninth wonder of the world.

An extraordinary and amusing account of one of Liszt's recitals was given in the autobiography of Henry Reeves. Reeves attended a concert of Liszt given in 1835:
"Liszt had already played a great fantasia of his own, and Beethoven's Twenty-seventh Sonata. After this latter piece he gasped with emotion as I took his hand and thanked him for the divine energy he had shed forth..... My chair was on the same board as the piano when the final piece began. It was a duet for two instruments beginning with his Mendelssohn's Chants sans Paroles and proceeding to a work of his own.
   ..... As the closing strains began I saw Liszt's countenance assuming that agony of expression, mingled with radiant smiles of joy, which I never saw on any other human face except in the paintings of Our Saviour by some of the early masters; his hands rushed over the keys, the floor on which I sat shook like a wire, and the whole audience were wrapped with sound when the hand and frame of the artist gave way. He fainted in the arms of the friend who was turning over the pages for him, and we bore him out in a strong fit of hysterics. The effect of this scene was really dreadful. The whole room sat breathless with fear, till Hiller came forward and announced that Liszt was already restored to consciousness and was comparatively well again. As I handed Madame de Circourt to her carriage we both trembled like poplar leaves, and I tremble scarcely less as I write this."

Liszt's style was invariably extravagant, he loved to stagger his audience with extreme velocity, terrific attack and immense power, yet his runs and arpeggios were as near perfect as any mortal could hope to get them. His brutal fortissimos often resulted in broken wires and smashed hammers, yet his more delicate passages were executed with a superb touch that could bring tears to the eyes of all emotional people.

The rising reputation of Thalberg as a pianist was party responsible for Liszt's decision to return to Paris 1836. Continued absence would have made it easy for Thalberg to challenge the great virtuoso's acknowledged supremacy. Liszt reached the French capital with the Comtesse d'Agoult in December 1836 to find Thalberg's name upon everybody's lips in all the musical circles. Undismayed, he arranged to appear at a concert being held by Berlioz, and to play his own transcriptions of various pieces by that composer. The audience, little suspecting that his technique had become even more remarkable during his absence, gathered in a sceptic frame of mind, but within fifteen minutes they were gasping with astonishment. Sir Charles Halle was present and we have his personal testimony:

"At an orchestral concert conducted by Berlioz, the March au Supplice, that most gorgeously instrumented piece, was performed, at the conclusion of which Liszt sat down and played his own arrangement, for piano alone, of the same movement, with an effect even surpassing that of the full orchestra, and creating an indescribable furore. The feat had been duly announced in the programme beforehand, a proof of his indomitable courage."

Halle remarked:
"Such marvels of executive skill and power I could never have imagined... Chopin carried you with him into a dreamland in which you would have liked to dwell forever; Liszt was all sunshine and dazzling splendour, subjugating his hearers with a power that none could withstand. From him there were no difficulties of execution, the most incredible seeming child's play under his fingers. One of the transcendent merits of his playing was the crystal-like clearness which never failed for a moment even in the most complicated and, to anybody else, impossible passages; it was as if he had photographed them in their minutest detail upon the ear of the listener. The power he drew from his instrument was such as I have never heard since, but never harsh, never suggesting 'thumping'. "

Thalberg happened to be out of Paris at this time, but he returned to the capital in the following March and arranged a concert at the Conservatoire. Liszt accepted this as a challenge and arranged one at the opera house, where to an audience many times larger than that drawn by his rival, he played Weber's  Concertstuck and his own Fantasia on Pacini's Niobe, and convinced the musical world for all time of his supremacy.

Liszt went to Venice and there he heard of the plight of the peasants who where suffering great hardships after flooding of the Danube. He played 10 concerts within a month and raised a large sum of money which he handed over for the relief of the stricken peasants. These concerts where of great artistic success and Liszt rose to even greater heights of fame.

Some idea of Liszt's fame as a pianist might be gained from an incident at Pressburg, where nobility were so unanimous in their desire to hear him play that the Prince Palatine of Hungary had to cancel a levee because he warned that it clashed with Liszt's concert, and that if he persisted in holding it on that day, nobody would attend!


Liszt's contemporary von Lenz wrote: "Liszt is a phenomenon of universal musical virtuosity.... an apparition not to be compressed within the bounds of the house drawn by schools and professors. Liszt is the past, the present, and the future of the pianoforte.... When Liszt thunders, lightens, and murmurs, the great B-flat Sonata for Hammerklavier by Beethoven, this Solomon's Song of the keyboard, there is end of all things pianistic; Liszt is making capital for humanity out of the ideas of the greatest thinker in the realm of music.

Prosniz wrote: "Liszt is the father of modern pianoforte virtuosity. He developed the capacity of the instrument to the utmost; he commanded it to sing, to whisper, to thunder. From the human voice as well as from the orchestra be borrowed effects. Daringly, triumphantly, his technique overcame all difficulties- a technique which proclaimed the unqualified dominion of the mind over the human hand."

The last 20 years of Liszt's life was spent mostly in Rome where he found plenty of activity at Weimar and frequently visited Budapest. In 1866 he went on a "jubilee Tour" to celebrate his forthcoming 75th birthday, visiting Paris on the Way to London, where he arrived on April 3rd, for a performance of St Elizabeth in the st James Hall. He attended the rehearsal on the following day, and in the evening delighted everybody by improvising brilliantly on the themes from that oratorio. On the following Wednesday it was performed under Sir Alexander Mackenzie's direction, and on the Thursday evening Liszt was received by Queen Victoria at Windsor Castle. He played her various works of his own and Chopin's Nocturne in B-flat minor no 1.

A great reception in his honor was given at the Grosvenor Gallery on April 8th, and once again he found it impossible to disregard requests play; he went to the piano and gave an astonishing performance of the Second Hungarian Rhapsody and the finale of Schubert's Divertissment a l'Hongroise. While he was in London he also went to a concert of his own works at Crystal Palace, dined with the Prince of Wales at Marlborough House, attended the London debut of Frederic Lamond at the St James's Hall on April 15th, and went to a gala performance of Faust at Lyceum, where he met Irving and Ellen Terry. He never saw his 75th birthday however, for later in summer he caught a chill and died at Beyreuth on July 31st. He played throughout his entire life, which to me is a very blessed pianist.
 
Hope some of this has been food for thought.
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 11:41:18 AM
How was Liszt as a pianist?  :)

He was a right tosser - always getting pissed and playing at bars - showing off his skills. Bastard borrowed $10 from me and never paid it back...



 ;D

Offline pianoplayjl

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #14 on: October 28, 2011, 11:43:05 PM
I  reckon a minority of the accounts of Liszt's plaing were exaggerated. However, I'm not saying he's not the greatest pianist of all time. I wish the accounts were combined into one volume of book and be called: Liszt and his Technique.
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Offline Romantica

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #15 on: October 29, 2011, 12:27:40 AM
How was Liszt as a pianist?  :)

In my new Liszt film which has exactly this subject: how did Liszt play and what advice did he give to his pupils? I chose the best original texts I could find for the main aspects of playing, unfortunately (or not?) in German: see


I have just posted most of the original texts in my article about my Liszt film, thus you can read them directly (in German). And three of them are given in English translation. Please see there.

Moreover you find in my film many rarely seen pictures and much music played at his 1862 Bechstein. Please enjoy.
Romantica
Romantic Singer and Film Artist.

Offline Romantica

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #16 on: November 04, 2011, 07:39:22 PM
It is a pleasure for me to announce that the ENGLISH VERSION of my film has just been finished and uploaded! Please enjoy "The Poet at the Piano - Franz Liszt and his 1862 Bechstein" with complete English subtitles
(The German version can also be found there)
 
You may watch the English version even in 1080p HD.

In my film you may thus read now in English all those interesting original texts about or from Liszt concerning his piano playing and his instruments.

Comments to Liszt the pianist or to the film are welcome.

Romantica
Romantic Singer and Film Artist.

Offline pianomcl

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #17 on: November 04, 2011, 08:44:41 PM
Was it a Rosen book where he quotes someone hearing a performance of Liszt and then meeting him after the concert? Asking about Liszt's showy performance of a Bach fugue, Liszt replied that it was too showy and then went on to play the fugue in a far more artistically "proper" manner. (This story is from memory though so forgive the inaccuracies!)
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Offline mike_lang

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #18 on: November 04, 2011, 08:59:05 PM
I cannot say, as I am not old enough to have heard him play; somehow, I doubt that anyone else here is, either...

Best,

Alistair

Although we can guess to some degree by looking at the music he wrote  . . .

Offline pianoplayjl

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #19 on: November 04, 2011, 09:24:05 PM
If he wrote the music then he must've been able to play it.
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Offline bleicher

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #20 on: November 07, 2011, 09:37:49 AM
Plenty of composers write music they can't play! Also, even they do play it, they might not play it well.

Offline pianoplayjl

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #21 on: November 07, 2011, 10:19:21 AM
Plenty of composers write music they can't play! Also, even they do play it, they might not play it well.

True. Great examples of this include Chopin and his etudes and Balakirev and his Islamey. But I'm sure Liszt would have composed music that he could have played to a satisfactory standard. A testament to his great ability is his simplifying of his Transcendental etudes into the 2nd version. If he simplified it then he must have thought the 1st one was too hard. This proves his great ability, technically and musically.
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Offline bleicher

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #22 on: November 07, 2011, 01:10:40 PM
Agreed!

Offline pianoplayjl

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #23 on: November 08, 2011, 02:03:49 AM
Yes yes I'm just trying to back up your point so I agreed with you.
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Offline mike_lang

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #24 on: November 08, 2011, 12:38:29 PM
Plenty of composers write music they can't play! Also, even they do play it, they might not play it well.

True -- Ligeti wrote his études to further his own study of certain pianistic difficulties.

In the case of the Chopin études, I think the dedication that op. 10 bears is at least some evidence of Liszt's stature as a pianist.

Also, maybe we should make a distinction between pianistic vision and pianistic execution?  That is to say, the degree of foresight/insight into what is possible on the piano, and the level of mastery over the instrument and its extant literature, independent of possibilities. 

I would estimate that Chopin had an enormous amount of pianistic vision, and being to some degree self-taught, he may have intuited some things about comfortable piano playing that led him to set forth the two opuses of études as his treatise on piano technique.  The fact that he did this does not mean that he could play them; however, it is true that most (if not all) of the textures/difficulties found in the études are found to some degree in his more substantial works, so it is possible that he wrote them, just as Ligeti, to help himself master these difficulties.

Liszt was a pianist with an enormous amount of vision (this seems somewhat inarguable), and probably a great deal of mastery of execution.  Accounts by listeners and composers testify to this, as do the prowess of descendants (direct and otherwise) of Siloti in Russia.  We cannot hear Liszt play, of course, but we can attempt to gauge based on the legacy left in scores, records, writings, and students.

Mike

Offline pianoplayjl

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Re: Liszt as a pianist.
Reply #25 on: November 09, 2011, 11:34:45 AM
Let's just say that Liszt has been brought back to life and his piano skills haven't changed a single tiny bit. I think it would be very interesting to compare him to other greatest pianists, in terms of technical and musical mastery in their prime. That what be the piano competition of the century, in my opinion.
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