keybedding and healthy movement- how to play with confidence

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's a recent post about keybedding and absorbing impact etc.

https://pianoscience.blogspot.com/2011/07/keybedding-to-follow-through-or-to-hold.html

[mcdiddy1]

Lol 
Ouch ...I think it is funny you put someone playing Minuet in G and compared it to a concert pianist playing a Liszt Transcription.

[nyiregyhazi]

Lol  
Ouch ...I think it is funny you put someone playing Minuet in G and compared it to a concert pianist playing a Liszt Transcription.

Well, it might seem a little extreme but I think it illustrates my point perfectly. There's a good reason why I'd be hard-pushed to find a concert pianist who I could have used to illustrate repressed movement. It's the same reason why you'd be hard-pushed to find a golfer who uses the repressed putting action I described. You don't see examples of either at the top, because people who depend on those erratic approaches never get to the top. What better example than someone who both preaches this and illustrates the problems it causes? And what better example of how unnecessary it is to hold back from the keybeds than somebody who plays both so positively and with such total ease? It proves that it's really about HOW you interact with the keybed, and that there's no requirement for any of this implausible nonsense about having to avoid it.

[keyboardclass]

Aren't those people who only post to advertise their blogs annoying?  I certainly don't read them! 

https://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

[thalbergmad]

 

[mcdiddy1]

lol Well all I am saying is that it may be a bit more fair to compare to pianist playing the same piece. The Liszt is on a totally different level and more importantly style. The technique he choose may be because he chooses to play it this way rather than an inability. I am not saying that is the case, just merely bring out the possibility.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm interested in any views on the issues raised, but I have no interest in getting involved in anything outside of the subject.

[keyboardclass]

but I have no interest in getting involved in anything outside of the subject.

...and three guesses at who the subject is!

[nyiregyhazi]

lol Well all I am saying is that it may be a bit more fair to compare to pianist playing the same piece. The Liszt is on a totally different level and more importantly style. The technique he choose may be because he chooses to play it this way rather than an inability. I am not saying that is the case, just merely bring out the possibility.

The gaping holes in the left hand line are a choice? Anyway, I see your point, but I'm not comparing insane octaves to fingerwork. I specifically chose that film of Prats, precisely because it features so many comparably simple passages (as well as plenty of virtuosity). I don't believe for a moment that Prats would resort to half-baked little prods (or have the associated problems in creating a coherent musical line), were he to play the Minuet. Accomplished pianists may sometimes play with quite small movements but they do not play negatively or with a braced arm.

The subject is PIANO TECHNIQUE by the way. The topic is far more important than any individual person.

[keyboardclass]

The topic is far more important than any individual person.

Funny how it presumably features individual persons!  Anyway, Proud to be Stalked!

[nyiregyhazi]

Funny how it presumably features individual persons!  Anyway, Proud to be Stalked!

You're a mere illustration of what happens when a person moves stiffly, due to fear of the keybeds- rather than when they learn to deal with them confidently and heathily. I use you simply to show the mindset you preach causes problems in the results. If you think the post is actually about you then feel free to believe that. It's not. However,0 I'm sincerely grateful to you for posting videos that serve as an example of how particular intentions easily limit results. You provide a very useful illustration. However, the subject is piano technique and you're just a brief example.

[keyboardclass]

However, the subject is piano technique ...

Stalking technique more like!

[nyiregyhazi]

Stalking technique more like!

Believe whatever you will. I'm sorry to inform you that I am only interested in piano technique and have zero interest in you personally- which it why this is my last response to anything outside of the topic. Continue to write whatever uninteresting accusations you like. I'm not going to spend any more time feeding off-topic trolling.

[keyboardclass]

I'm not going to spend any more time feeding off-topic trolling.

As I'm the topic, I'm trolling myself??  That's a new one.

[richard black]

All I can see in those videos, as regards what the fingers are doing, is fingers going up and down on keys. Of course the player of the Liszt has much more precise control of how fast the keys are going down, but it doesn't look as if either of them is really thinking about the keybed much, if at all - nor do I when I play, the keybed is simply there to rest the key and finger on when they've finished doing anything useful.

[nyiregyhazi]

All I can see in those videos, as regards what the fingers are doing, is fingers going up and down on keys. Of course the player of the Liszt has much more precise control of how fast the keys are going down, but it doesn't look as if either of them is really thinking about the keybed much, if at all - nor do I when I play, the keybed is simply there to rest the key and finger on when they've finished doing anything useful.

I agree in the case of Prats, certainly. However, I think that a less talented player can make a huge improvement by initially thinking about the motion- in order to be in a position to forget about the keybed and get on with truly positive movements. I know that this is making a colossal difference to my own ease of playing. If you only notice yourself resting on the keybed between notes, that says to me that you're already dealing with the way the key lands upon it well enough not to need to notice. Not everyone has the ability to do it- even some rather advanced pianists. Just look at Leon Fleisher on film! Also, Kissin too often plays with shocking levels of impact. I seriously anticipate an early retirement from arthritis- just like Ashkenazy (another high impact player). The current post is primarily an introduction to the concepts- but the next one will be packed with exercises that illustrate how particular types of action enable totally unrestrained movement. I need to make various videos first, to illustrate everything very clearly, but I'd be interested to hear your views on the direct applications of the theory.

I see all the characteristics of redirecting momentum in the motions of Prats. There's no sign of him either trying to "relax" between notes or use contrary muscles to repress positive movement. Whether the other player consciously thinks about the keybeds or not, the movement is loaded with repression that suggests fear of them. I have a student who started with me recently at Grade 5. Although she plays rather well in many ways, everything is marred by an even greater type of repression. If I simply tell her to get into the keys and play more positively, that causes improvement- but she sometimes ends up digging in too hard and always tends to go back to less precise movements and thin, uneven sounds. With prompting, the quality always vastly improves- but this does not yet stick or become her normal way to move. I'm realising how important it is to show her a style of movement that can be executed with total confidence- without "keybedding" ever being a possible side-effect. Unless a student can be sure that even the most confident action directs energy away from the keybed (rather than into compressing against it) such consequences are always going to be scaring them away from the most positive style of movement.

Interestingly enough, I watched a little bit of a documentary on Prats where someone spoke of how as a youngster he was "never scared" of the piano. Very insightful, I think. The problem is that, for most pianists, they haven't acquired a foundation that would enable them to play with such lack of restraint- without suffering impact.

[keyboardclass]

I see all the characteristics of redirecting momentum in the motions of Prats.

Redirecting, schmidirecting...  It's all yer mind buddy!

The momentum is not "redirected" without unnecessary energy input by you. You said so yourself the key lifts your finger when it is relaxed. So why bounce like this when you have a free energy source (after it's depressed) of the weight of the hammer.

[nyiregyhazi]

Redirecting, schmidirecting...  It's all yer mind buddy!

That you have no interest in such things is already more than evident from your playing. If you want to learn to play difficult repertoire with some level of comfort, you need to stop directing energy into impact and give it somewhere else to go.

Also, I have not the slightest idea what point Venik was attemping to make in that quote. At one point he had even claimed that momentum cannot ever change direction without energy input- which can be disproven as easily as by dropping a rubber ball on to the ground. I wouldn't pay much attention to the various claims he made.

[keyboardclass]

I wouldn't pay much attention to the various claims he made.

We know you wouldn't.  As he was a real physicist you waffled him off the forum pretty smartish!

[nyiregyhazi]

We know you wouldn't.  As he was a real physicist you waffled him off the forum pretty smartish!

He might have studied physics, but what he claimed was absolutely riddled with factual errors. Perhaps worst of all was the claim that it takes the same energy to accelerate from 20m/s to 30 m/s as it does from 10 m/s to 20m/s. He made severe errors in some astonishingly basic physics.  

Unfortunately he was just interested in arguing- but sadly not terribly interested in bothering to verify his facts before trying to make 'corrections'. Maybe he's used to impressing people who don't know anything about physics with reams of inaccurately remembered information- but the sheer volume of bogus claims didn't impress me.

[richard black]

shocking levels of impact.

I hope we can all agree that that is something to be avoided.

[keyboardclass]

He made severe errors in some astonishingly basic physics.

So you, with your grade school qualification, liked to assert.   Personally, I'll go with the physicist.

[nyiregyhazi]

So you, with your grade school qualification, liked to assert.   Personally, I'll go with the physicist.

If you want to believe that kinetic energy can accurately calculated from changes in velocity (rather than magnitude of velocity) and a host of other schoolboy errors, then feel free. Unfortunately, just because somebody once studied something it doesn't mean that they can be trusted as a source of accurate information.

[keyboardclass]

Unfortunately, just because somebody once studied something it doesn't mean that they can be trusted as a source of accurate information.

Yeh, but you can be darn sure someone who never studied something knows nothing about it!

[nyiregyhazi]

Yeh, but you can be darn sure someone who never studied something knows nothing about it!

Indeed, which is precisely why I studied the subject and why I take great care to verify anything I refer to, before writing it up (rather than state partially-remembered distortions that do not represent reality, like Venik repeatedly did) Seeing it's the nature of possibility that interests me, it's in nobody's interests more than my own to maintain accuracy. If something falls outside of my knowledge, I know better than to fill in the gaps with what I might hope to believe might be the case. 

Anyway, you're just trolling again. I'm not going to reply to any more cheap shots unless they raise a point about the subject of piano technique. If you want an off-topic argument, you'll have to look elsewhere.

[keyboardclass]

Indeed, which is precisely why I studied the subject

Yeh right, pull the other leg.

[jazzyprof]

Stalking technique more like!

The two of you need to get a room.

[the_duck]

The two of you need to get a room.

Preferably a room filled with carbon monoxide fumes.

[keyboardclass]

Preferably a room filled with carbon monoxide fumes.

That won't be needed, one of us all ready has enough wind and p*ss toxic enough for both!

[nyiregyhazi]

The two of you need to get a room.

Thanks, but I'm not even going to respond to his content free insults- particularly now there's not even the slightest pretence that he is interested in arguing about the subject, rather than merely against myself. An off-topic slanging match is of literally zero interest to me- as is the troll who is trying to get attention and draw me into one.

If anyone has any thoughts on the subject of piano technique (which I am not going to be distracted from), however, that certainly would be of interest.

[lostinidlewonder]

Honestly, getting really sick of you two arguing with each other. It is like two seagulls fussing over a lowly scrap of food, you can keep this in private messages and spare us this rubbish constantly.