I must start a topic regarding touchweights and hammer weights

[noambenhamou]

I know this is an over viewed type of topic but I may have some of my own input regarding touchweights.
As some may know, I've been struggling with my new D vs a 20 year old loaner D that I had for 2 months which had a seriously light touchweight of 38grams. (needs new hammers / has very light hammers).

My tech has been attempting to voice my new D so I would be able to get a very big dynamic range I could get from the old D but not from the new one.
The old D could easily be controlled all the way from a whisper to thunderous sound.

The initial direction was to get the hammers on the new D to be soft on the strike point but hard deeper for stronger blows. But I really light a bright sound out of my piano which required the strike point to be relatively hard.

My hunch was that voicing is not just about the density properties of the hammer, but the weight of the hammer itself.

I don't have formal education in physics but I'm usually pretty intuitive when it comes to things like that.

Lets pretend that on average, on an average piano, playing ppp would send the hammer to hit the string at 1m/s. A heavy hammer hitting the string at 1m/s would have much more momentum than a light hammer hitting the string at 1m/s. The lighter hammer is much more easily rebounded. Also QUICKER. This also means that the lighter hammer will spend less time in contact with the string as heavy hammer. THIS MUST EFFECT THE TIMBRE / VOICE OF THE PIANO.

The other issue is inertia. I hope I'm using the right terminology.
One of Nueton's law states something to the effect of a body at rest wants to remain at rest, and a body in motion wants to remain in motion. Meaning that to when I press a key, I must produce extra force to "free" it from rest, but once it starts moving, I will need much less force to keep it in motion all the way to the bottom of the key.
The problem is that the 10mm dip takes a fraction of a second to accomplish, and I don't know any piano player that can "break" the rest of the key, and let off pressure.
Here is an easier way to explain:
Have you ever pushed a very heavy shopping cart and to break inertia, you had to push very hard, but you weren't quick enough to stop pushing so hard, so the shopping cart now is way too fast? But to control the speed of an empty shopping cart is very easy.

I think the same applies with the action. Lighter action is easier to control. Is easy to play it softly, and it might be easier to play it loudly. After-all, we can exchange speed for momentum of mass. I bet I can make a light hammer move up faster than a heavy one.


So, if my theory is correct, the hammer must be lighter. But reducing a hammer by 1gram reduces the touchweight by 5grams at the key.

I am wondering, what is so wrong and frowned upon with super light action? I myself have NEVER played a piano and thought to myself "this action is too light". But countless times I felt "too heavy". Doing some reading, I found that historically, bigger hammers were being developed because pianists wanted more sound, to over power an orchestra etc, but not because pianists wanted to press harder on the keys.

So maybe I won't be able to play any other pianos if my downweight is 40grams, but the way I'm feeling right now, is that at least I'll enjoy my new piano. When I play a light actioned piano, even if it's old and sounds bad, I always feel happy. I don't feel like I fight the piano, but me and the piano are together on the same team trying to make music.
I read some people online who don't like light action, they want to feel the "feedback". What feedback? A piano is like a hammer catapult. You can't feel the string like on a violin or cello. It's not a steering wheel on a car or a yoke on a small airplane.


The hammers on my new D are absolutely enormous. Having seen enough hammers in my time, and also my tech has mentioned it many many times. The shoulders are very broad. Next time, my tech will cut them, then sand them to much smaller to decrease weight, and also taper the "tails" of the hammer. I think that will bring me down to low 40's from the 48 I am at now.

[keyboardclass]

I am wondering, what is so wrong and frowned upon with super light action? I myself have NEVER played a piano and thought to myself "this action is too light".

Hey, love your post.  I know for a fact that Horowitz' action was very light.  Liberace's super light, as obviously was Chopin's.  I play Mozart, Bach etc on an 1800 Broadwood with about a 7mm keydip and super, super light action.  Their music makes far more sense to me on that instrument.  I'm awaiting the delivery of a 19th century Pleyel - Chopin's favourite make.  I have absolutely no interest in playing him on a 'D'!  - save that for your Schumann.

[john90]

Have you considered building an experimental action and keyboard for the D?

Shouldn't be that expensive, and could be amazing. The idea would be to slide out your original keyboard and action, and put that on one side so it is ready to play anytime. The other is experimental. You could start with a new keyboard and brackets, or get a used one and have it rebushed.

You could build a custom action with these action parts:

https://www.wessellnickelandgross.com/index.php/action-parts/repetitions

These can be set up to be lighter and faster apparently than wooden ones.

Renner or Abel hammer sets seem to be available in Europe from about 500 euros. Other brands for about 200. Seems amazingly cheap, with some claiming them to be suitable for (Hamburg) Steinways. I always thought they would be much more?

Also you could make your own hammers, and glue them on to carbon fibre, instead of a wood base. You should be able to measure the compressibility of the existing hammers by putting them under different weights, and measuring compression, and design yours accordingly.

[keyboardclass]

I'd be a lot easier to just get a Pleyel on ebay like I did!

[richard black]

Hey, that WNG link is interesting! I'd quite fancy building up a second action for my Bechstein with some of those parts in it.

I like light actions too. One of the most eloquent (if rather distasteful!) justifications for a heavy action came from a rather fine pianist whom I'd better not identify, who when selecting a piano for a recording picked the heaviest with the words, 'When I play a piano, I like it to be like a rape.' If that's his feeling, I can see the point, though I don't agree in any sense at all.

[iumonito]

Did you finally read this?

https://www.stanwoodpiano.com/PTGMarch00.pdf

[noambenhamou]

yes, actually I read this exact same thing last night after I posted this. Very interesting and somewhat the same conclusion. Don't add weights to make all keys even, but 1st make sure all the hammers are at the right weight.
Has anyone had this method done on their piano? what is the result? Too perfect?

[iumonito]

There.  is. No. Such. Thing. As. Too. Perfect.

A smoothly balanced keyboard that is neither too light nor too heavy, nor too deep nor too shallow, becomes a telepathic joy that translates your thoughts directly into sound, and make you feel you have the technique of Godowsky.

Having your piano in shape is just heaven.  It doesn't last very long there, for, alas, the thing is alive and changes constantly, and it is not humanly possible to keep it in its apex.

But, boy, is that an enjoyable thing - to have your piano just right...

[pianolive]

Now, Horowitz grand had a down touch weight at 40 grams and very high tension on the repetition springs. I dont think any other pianist could control a piano like that.
I have prepared piano for K. Zimerman and he used two complete actions. One very heavy for rehearsals and then a very light one for the concert. Both of them were made that way at the factory.
In a concert hall it is not possible to have pianos like these, because there are so many different pianists playing, but for your own piano it is important you get it to work just like you want it to.

[spencervirt]

You prepped a piano for Zimerman? He is my favorite pianist still alive today. His touch is unmatched. What a pleasure that must have been!

Where was this concert?

[pianolive]

Germany and I can tell you that Mr Zimerman is an excellent piano tech too.

[spencervirt]

I would love to meet him and see him in concert someday. His performance of the Chopin Ballades are irreplaceable. It seems like everything that he plays is gold!

[noambenhamou]

yeah, but what how inappropriate to discuss your political view during a concert. I was very disappointed with how professional it was regardless whether I agree with his viewpoint or not.

[spencervirt]

Are you referring to his announcement that he would no longer perform concerts in the U.S due to the destruction of his piano at the airport? Was there a separate incident?

While such things would be unprofessional, I still believe that his playing is unmatched.

[noambenhamou]

no no that's was fine, is some country destroyed my piano I probably would never go there again.
I'm talking about him during a concert in california where he started talking about politics to the audience in the middle of the concert.


"Zimerman sat silently at the piano for a moment, almost began to play, but then turned to the audience. In a quiet but angry voice that did not project well, he indicated that he could no longer play in a country whose military wants to control the whole world.

“Get your hands off of my country,” he said.  He also made reference to the U.S. military detention camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba"

source: https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/04/krystian-zimermans-shocking-walt-disney-concert-hall-debut.html

[spencervirt]

Hmm.....interesting. I'm not sure what to think about that.

The piano incident was ridiculous, I know that for one.

[noambenhamou]

yes, it was so ridiculous.
But as for political statements??? If I go to listen to Lang Lang do the Rach3, the last thing I want to hear at the end or between the movements is his political views!!! I'm not paying to hear out his opinions on politics. I am on the other hand paying to hear his opinions on musical interpretation (if he has any).

Nothing irritates me more than seeing Richard Gere on TV making a speech about international conflicts!!! Shouldn't that be left to professionals with an IQ higher than 100? Robin Williams maybe I'll let slide, although an actor, he is very educated. I'll leave politics for Noam Chomsky even though I don't agree with half the crap he says. At least he is educated on the matters.

I love Zimmerman and really respect him as a pianist, but I would be one of the people in the crowd shouting - "shut up and keep playing" even though I COMPLETELY AGREE with his point.

[keys60]

Again, you may want to look into this:  https://www.pitchlock.com/touchrail.shtml

I really does work and saves a lot of time. Its inexpensive and easy to install.

[noambenhamou]

Yes, my tech brought it up to my attention. But I want to keep my piano "native" as in - authentic.

[john90]

Yes, my tech brought it up to my attention. But I want to keep my piano "native" as in - authentic.

I agree completely, as it is your own new D, it needs to be as perfect as can be for starters. It may be an inconvenience for the tech for a bit, but once it is right...

With an 80+ year old Bechstein or Boesendorfer on the other hand, some WNG action parts, carefully weighed and graded new hammers, this touchrail thing, some nice strings, it would be fun to see just what you could get out of it.

[keys60]

I can agree with that. Its really proper to do through traditional regulation. The touchrail takes a lot of the labor out of it and does work, but I do respect your decision.