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Topic: Improvising  (Read 3495 times)

Offline elephant

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Improvising
on: August 24, 2004, 09:50:29 PM
I want to get deeper into improvising - I´m tired of just rambling over some chords and some scales. What is the prefered approach of getting a real good relative pitch and transfering the music in my head to the piano note for note (I´m too slow for this at the moment, but hopes to improve with practise), or focus on a tonal centrum, and kind of feel my way around the scale?


- or perhaps none of the above ::)

Offline ted

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Re: Improvising
Reply #1 on: August 25, 2004, 10:49:22 AM
There are as many ways of improvising as there are improvisers. Some do it like that, mostly with their ears, others do it by what amounts to very rapid mental arithmetic. Some do it by keyboard geography and patterns, others by something akin to automatic writing. Whatever your likings or strong points are as a pianist and a musician, then these will naturally come out in your improvisation. The most interesting improvisers usually use all these things.

I guess in the crudest sense, you could say that to express something meaningful to yourself at the piano (never mind what others think until much later on) you must have the keyboard vocabulary to say it with. Just as you cannot capture complex and abstract ideas with words of one syllable, you can only go so far by improvising melodies in single notes.

As you already know scales and chords (at least the simpler chords) I would tend to begin from there. Let your initial vocabulary be the scales and chords you are familiar with. The big trick is to start playing them in non-standard ways. Most people only play scales in one or two ways - that's a good restriction to get rid of. Start from a position of freedom and work towards one of discipline, not the other way around otherwise you'll never get started.  

For instance you might play any figures at all (if they sound nice to you so much the better) provided they are within say, a C minor harmonic scale. Gradually get both hands going playing little single note figures which make a pleasing counterpoint, right hand against left - any rhythm, any sequence, keeping the very free rule that everything lies within C minor.

Short motifs are easier and more versatile building blocks than long melodic strands. Once you've done it in one key, do it in the others, around the key circle. Don't try to repeat figures precisely at different pitches - not necessary - inexact repetitions are more interesting musically anyway.

That's just one way - certainly not the only way - you could start. It is quite unlike learning and playing pieces and is much closer to composing. It is a lifelong, continuously developing activity which reflects your whole psyche; you never stop growing with it. But neither do I feel can it be properly described as rapid composition , although I have seen this definition.

Your best bet is, of course, to learn under the guidance of a good teacher. Although rare, these people do exist, perhaps more commonly within the jazz field than the classical, although there is nothing untoward about improvising in a classical style. The trouble is usually that most who can do it cannot be bothered teaching it and most people who teach cannot do it, especially in the classical field.

Some retired jazz pianists, provided they have a classical technique, are very good. Try to find one.

"Mistakes are the portals of discovery." - James Joyce

Offline ted

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Re: Improvising
Reply #2 on: August 25, 2004, 11:13:33 AM
I stopped there to do the dishes and while drying them I realised a better way to say what I mean about starting from a point of view of freedom.

The thing is FLOW - improvisation always has FLOW. Stop/start creative playing is more in the nature of compositional tryouts - nothing wrong with it but it isn't improvisation. This ability to FLOW has to be acquired first, even if the material is kept simple, even if mistakes are made relative to intention, even if the results do not please or surprise for a few months.

That is what I was trying to say but couldn't think of the right words before.
"Mistakes are the portals of discovery." - James Joyce

Offline super_ardua

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Re: Improvising
Reply #3 on: August 25, 2004, 07:01:18 PM
Also,  think if the bass chord you're going into before you put stuff on top.
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Offline Max

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Re: Improvising
Reply #4 on: August 25, 2004, 08:39:20 PM
You need to stop thinking in terms of scales and chords, and think more on the lines of "what sound does this note make". You can improvise easily by singing, right? Well the same principles should apply here - being able to put the tunes you think onto the keyboard. Guitarists (myself included) use this approach, rather than thinking in terms of theory. And I have to say it works just as well with piano.

Offline jr11

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Re: Improvising
Reply #5 on: August 25, 2004, 09:51:09 PM
I'm no expert, but a couple good (dare I say it) tricks for more colour are varying rhthyms (eg: 1/4 note triplets) and using polytonality. Listening to the jazz greats is most inspirational.

Offline in_love_with_liszt

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Re: Improvising
Reply #6 on: August 26, 2004, 12:44:03 AM
I do alot of improvistory work, and I can't really describe it much more than that the music just seems to flow from your mind onto the keyboard, like an artist sketching. Basic theory knowledge is good to have, that way you know standard rhythmic patterns, chord progressions, and cadences. Theme and variation is a wonderful base for improvising. It is really about experimentation and the equivelent of a stream of conscience instead of a thought out and revised novel. Don't listen to jazz, jazz is like nails on a chalkboard.
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Offline IllBeBach

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Re: Improvising
Reply #7 on: August 26, 2004, 09:52:52 PM
Don't try to start by doing something too complicated.  

One good way to start improvising is to begin by improvising a melody alone.  You can then develop it easily by repeating it in thirds or sixths--then begin to play with it, altering and/or filling out the chords.  Use octave displacement to expand it more, perhaps breaking it up into shorter motives that you can put into different registers.

Improvisation has to practiced regularly just like anything to begin gaining fluency.  Know your chords and chord progressions, scales and arpeggios thoroughly and that will help.
Soli Deo Gloria

Offline Derek

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Re: Improvising
Reply #8 on: August 27, 2004, 05:52:57 AM
Beware of telling yourself: I must learn this that and the other thing before I can begin to improvise.   I started out knowing only one scale: G# minor, and started making up stuff in it and remembered what I made up. Eventually I began taping myself....then when I had made up a ton of riffs I began playing more freely. I LOVE improvising. I highly reccommend jumping in the deep end and trying all sorts of stuff no matter how crappy it sounds because who knows months later you might surprise yourself.

Your ability to surprise yourself will start to increase after a while. There's no end in sight to the amount of variety possible in improvisation.

Offline Nightscape

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Re: Improvising
Reply #9 on: August 27, 2004, 11:41:38 PM
One thing that you could try, especially when you are beginning to improvise, is ostinato patterns for the accompianment.  For example, if you want the harmony to be an Eb major chord, instead of just playing the chord, you could arpeggiate it (like in the style of Rachmaninov).  This really has helped me in other areas of improvisation, because it allowed me to focus on elements of things like melody without having to worry so much about the harmony right off.  Since the sound of an arpeggio is continuous and resonating, you'll know exactly when to change the harmony becuase it will not sound like the way you want it.  This can help you learn what works and what doesn't.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Improvising
Reply #10 on: August 28, 2004, 06:20:38 PM
You may find this book interesting:

David Sudnow – “Ways of the Hand” (MIT Press)

David Sudnow is a sociologist who as an adult decided to learn how to do jazz improvisation. He got himself a teacher and in the book does a “phenomenological” account of his progress from total beginner to accomplished improviser (he actually ended up devising a piano method based on his insights).

It is a very interesting book, but do not expect an easy read. Sudnow has a very convoluted prose and you must read a paragraph several times to pry its meaning. :P However, buried in there are some real gems.

Here  are a few excerpts:

“When I looked at pianist’s hands, I looked past them to the places they were going, not to how they were going about, but where. I sat at my piano and had to bring my hands to some particular notes. […] I learned several years later that where the hands are going very much depends upon how they go about their doings, but the teacher did not tell me about that at the beginning.”

“I began to have an experience with the keyboard that would seem essential to the making of music. It was not until the start of my third year of play that I found myself ‘going for the sounds’. […] I was expressly aiming for the sound of those particular notes. […] I was aiming for sound spots.”

“[…] it was not as if I had learned about the keyboard so that looking down I could tell what a regarded note would sound like. I do not have that skill, nor do many other musicians. I could tell what a note would sound like because it was a next sound, because my hand was so engaged with the keyboard that it was given a setting of sounding places in its own configuration and potentialities.”

“ A recurrent piece of advice had been given in the jazz subculture when discussions were had of ways to develop skills at improvisation: sing while you are playing.”

Much less esoteric and full of interesting exercises is:

Martan Mann – “Jazz improvisation for the classical pianist” (Amsco)

I hope this helps,

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline Derek

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Re: Improvising
Reply #11 on: August 30, 2004, 11:47:27 PM
Anyone notice a coincidence that improvise shares several letters with the word "improve"?

I am told there is no etymological connection; however in my own playing it makes perfect sense. I play a whole bunch of mildly interesting musical things on the piano, and then improve them by improvising.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Improvising
Reply #12 on: August 31, 2004, 01:34:13 AM
Quote
Anyone notice a coincidence that improvise shares several letters with the word "improve"?

I am told there is no etymological connection; however in my own playing it makes perfect sense. I play a whole bunch of mildly interesting musical things on the piano, and then improve them by improvising.



:D
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline Daevren

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Re: Improvising
Reply #13 on: August 31, 2004, 04:58:15 AM
Improvising is like on-the-fly-composing. Its very hard. But there are ways to 'cheat'. Improvisers have lots of small musical elements ready. Its like lego, or a puzzle. They just grab a handful of musical elements and try to fit them together as fast as possible, while playing of course.

They play things they already played before, but in new ways, by changing them. And out of old things come new things, evolution. If you practice enough you will get a very distict own style (this proves that an argument creationists use vs Darwinism is wrong :) )

Important is to know in which key you are. If you know that, playing the correct chords and notes, the ones diatonic to the key, is very easy. Then, you can try to use non-diatonic chords. There are lots of ways non-diatonic chords and notes can function. You can use them instinctively or intellectually.

Sining is very important. Understand that playing an instrument is not a very effective way of making music. You tend to think about moving muscles, which move fingers, which move keys, which move hammers, which move strings, which moves the air etc, you aren't thinking about music!

So you want to change the way you think. You want your brain to think about musical sounds, not about patterns on the keys. Singing helps. If you sing, you will never thing about moving your muscles or something non-musical. Singing is so intimately related, there is no boundary.

So you think about music, try to sing the music and while you sing the music play the piano too. You can be an awful singer, it doesn't matter. There are many examples of people who used this method.

Rhythm is a powerful element. You can change a melody endlessly using rhythm, Just one small change and it will sound totally different. Its the easiest and most powerful tool of the improviser.

Quote
Don't listen to jazz, jazz is like nails on a chalkboard.


So? Maybe that makes it fun. I rather listen to Charlie Parker than an atonal Schoenberg orchestral piece heavy on brass. Or John Cage...

If you don't like jazz, then listen to indian music. Those people have been perfecting improvised music the last 4000 years. Its the most advanced form in the world today. Classical music is only 500 years old, jazz only about 100. Indian music is 8 to 40 times as sophisticated. Plus, no chalkboard harmonies, which both jazz and contemporary classical have.


BTW, I think a real musician should either compose or improvise. If they don't then they don't really create anything.

Offline rohansahai

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Re: Improvising
Reply #14 on: September 02, 2004, 08:31:48 PM
Try the INDIAN way of improvising! Although its quite different from what you all are used to, but I can simplify it a bit.
Take the A flat major scale for instance.
Remove the D flat and G (i.e. just don't touch them) and with the remaining five notes, starting from A flat play the scale slowly (skipping D flat and G of course) and try and fit in variations with the left as well as the right hand on just these 5 notes ( you can use the upper and lower registers too). If done properly, you will get a very exotic harmony and things will keep coming after that.  Make the A flat note your base i.e.  keep returning to it frequently at the phrase ends. This way, if you are new at improvising, you can get a hang of it and ultimately be able to do it with no restrictions using all notes!
Waste of time -- do not read signatures.

Offline Daevren

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Re: Improvising
Reply #15 on: September 02, 2004, 10:48:18 PM
Thats Ab pentatonic major; 1 2 3 5 6

If anyone wants the 72 indian Melakarta ragas I have them.

Of course you can't play them in the indian way on a keyboard. You need a string instrument.

Offline steveolongfingers

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, but Re: Improvising
Reply #16 on: September 03, 2004, 10:15:33 PM
Improvising is matter of trail and error.  No one can tell what to do, because your making it up.  here is a few tips from an article recently in GUITAR WORLD, with tret anastasio, from the band PHISH, Al Schinier and Chuck Garvey from moe.  and Derek trucks.

Forget what you've learned.  

Keep it simple

Use odd tonal centers to keep the audience hooked, ie 3rds and 7ths.  Instead of ending on the tonic end up on the mediant or something funky like that.

Rely on tension and release.

Embrace the concepts of lameness (if you sound bad who cares?!?)  Getting over this "fear"  will help you relize that if your making it up, you cant be wrong.

Drop your ego(harder for guitar players than piano players personally!)

Steal steal steal, good musicans borrow but the best steal outright.  

PRACTICE

try to tell a story.

Never play something you havent played before infront of an audience.  

Know your theory.  Learn progerssions for the modes.

And one rule i have made up......never go into a improvising session without an idea of what your playing.   Sit down and figure out some good mellodys and use them as a repeating motif as you explore. dont play the samething the same way twice, EVER.  When you want to go back to your melodic motif, add some extra nuances or mordanants of some sort.  Some sort of embelishment that makes it sound different.




Writing about music is like dancing about architecture – it’s a stupid thing to want to do- Frank Zappa

Offline Daevren

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Re: Improvising
Reply #17 on: September 03, 2004, 10:20:36 PM
"dont play the samething the same way twice, EVER."

I disagree. Change it into thrice. Its perfectly normal to repeat something, something short, twice and then play something else and after that repeat it a third time but this time altered/embellishment/variation.

Offline thomas_williams

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Re: Improvising
Reply #18 on: September 06, 2004, 01:15:39 AM
Quote


They play things they already played before, but in new ways, by changing them. And out of old things come new things, evolution. If you practice enough you will get a very distict own style (this proves that an argument creationists use vs Darwinism is wrong :) )



.


What in the world does improvisation have to do with Creationism vs. Darwinism?  ::)
It's GREAT to be a classical musician!

Offline fnork

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Re: Improvising
Reply #19 on: October 10, 2004, 02:13:53 AM
I would recommend everyone who want to learn more of improvising to LISTEN a lot to some musicians who improvise. The biggest names in solo piano improvisational music would be Keith Jarrett and Chick Corea - check out their stuff. They are classically trained at first, but became crossover artists who play jazz (without abandoning classical music) and other things. In other words, a jazz musician with technique as good as classical musicans.

Listen to Keith Jarretts "The Köln concert" (not his best concert perhaps, but his most famous nevertheless) or "Paris concert" (Paris concert has a lot of classical influences I think, it starts out sounding like it's Bach who improvises), or Chick Coreas "Piano improvisations, vol 1" or "Solo piano originals" (not only improvisations, but worth listening to).

If you like the music, try to transcribe some of it yourself. I've done it a lot, and I can tell you that it is a great way to develop your ear.

Offline elephant

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Re: Improvising
Reply #20 on: August 30, 2005, 09:05:18 PM
My brain must be faulty - I started this thread almost a year ago only to forget all about it. Just wanted to say thanks for all the great ideas ;)

Offline nightmarecinema

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Re: Improvising
Reply #21 on: August 31, 2005, 01:45:28 AM
But man, some of these ideas are just so... skewed - I think a lot of this is bad advice.

I don't really practice improvising on the piano, but that's mostly what I practice on the guitar whether it be rock or jazz. Some of the best lines sound so good because they are repeated...just think of a great composition - how often is NOTHING played more than once? A solo is in many instances a mini composition within a song.

"Never play something you haven't played before in front of an audience"

If you follow this advice, then you're never going to be truly improvising, just stringing licks. You don't want to do this. While every musician falls back on licks occasionally, the idea of improvising is that you are playing how you feel at that exact moment. Therefore preparing some melodies or riffs or practicing licks beforehand defeats the purpose of improvising.

There was more I didn't agree with, but I don't feel like looking. There were also good ideas, but some a little strange to be offering as advice to a beginner.

Offline jeremyjchilds

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Re: Improvising
Reply #22 on: August 31, 2005, 05:42:34 AM
If you like the music, try to transcribe some of it yourself. I've done it a lot, and I can tell you that it is a great way to develop your ear.

THere are so so so many things, but in a pinch, If i had only one method of learning to improvise, this is it...

Transcribe and analyze....transcribe and analyze.

Learning to play in other's styles is the best way to broaden your  own style (and technique)
"He who answers without listening...that is his folly and his shame"    (A very wise person)

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Improvising
Reply #23 on: September 01, 2005, 02:27:53 AM
I'd advise to keep it simple at first. Don't put many notes in your improvisations. The less the better to start off with. Understanding how to repeat phrases that you play is very important and how to add variation to them. This requires good memorisation and ear sense, also creativity. You have to be able to immediatly play melodies over any key, so transpositional skills are important to develop.

Study musical punctuation like Cadences, Chord progressions, Common arpeggio/chordal/scale Patterns (Jazz or Classical) etc. These things really come from learning lots of repetiore. The more music you have memorised the more musical tools you absorb and have at your disposal. A good idea would be to try and mix parts of music you already have memorised in an improvisation. Not necessarily playing them exactly as written but mucking around with them, moving notes here and there, creating a sound to your liking.

"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
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