New to site and have a Baldwin SD 10 question. Please help

[956angler]

Hello,

As the Subject header reads, I am new to this site.  So please bear with me.

I am the parent of two daughters that wanted a new piano.  They been taking lessons for a year and been practicing on a digital keyboard.

After some research, and few trips to local pianos stores (2 stores in our area) I have narrowed the choices to Three instruments for my kids.  Neither of these instruments are in the local shops. 

They were as follow: Baldwin SD 10, Petroff II, Yamaha CS. 

These were similarly priced instruments. 

The Baldwin is coming off a music academy and being sold as a consignment, the Petroff is from a dealer selling it as a consigned instrument, and the Yamaha is from an online vendor that imported it from a Japanese rebuilder.

Price aside what are your opinions or experiences with the mentioned pianos??

I had a piano technician from the local technician's guild inspect and appraise the Baldwin and gave it a clean bill of health with the exception of some minor cabinet scratches that were described to me by the seller.

The Petroff II was evaluated by a technician hired by the owner/seller prior to accepting instrument as a consignment and it has a stellar report.

The yamaha is on e-bay along with a video and a very visual vendor with solid reputation, etc.

Your thoughts fellows.

[quantum]

These pianos would be a huge upgrade from a digital keyboard.  It looks like you've already looked at the technical reports on the pianos.  I would also recommend hiring a tech to look at the Yamaha if you are considering it, as I would not wish to rely on e-bay reputation for instruments of such caliber.

Now it is time for you to try and hear these pianos in person.  All three represent different flavors, it depends on which flavor you are most attracted to.  Seeing as these are also large semi-concert and concert instruments, there may be some variability due to any custom voicing or work done to the pianos.  It is difficult to label these high quality instruments with any generalizations.  You did say none of the instruments are local, but the class of instrument you are after warrants a trip to evaluate each one in person.  

Out of the three you mentioned, I've played the SD 10.  The bass range could knock your socks off.

[keys60]

All three are high quality instruments so it would be unfair to tell you my personal preference. I like the tone of the Baldwin, the smooth waxy feel of the Petrof and the reliability of the Yamaha. Since even like brands and models can vary widely from previous regulation and voicing, especially its climatic environment, each piano should be played and inspected in person and chosen by deciding on which you like the best.

[iumonito]

If in comparable state of repair, these three are not comparable pianos.  The Baldwin is very materially superior to the other two, and the Yamaha considerably superior to the Petroff.

However ...

If they are used pianos, you should not think of them as being in comparable repair until each of the three has been thoroughly inspected by your trusted piano technician, who right away will have to do some work on the chosen piano before it gets adjusted (mechanically, like a tune-up), and aclimated (that is, the wood becomes stable in its new environment).  If the space where the piano will live is susceptible to dramatic changes in humidity (and to certain extent temperature, but temperature matters less), you will constantly (seasonally) have to have work done on the piano.  Consider methods of humidity control.

Sight unseen, used pianos from Japan often have suffered a lot, and it takes a lot to rebuild them well, even though their design execution is generally excellent.  Petroff pianos, on the other hand, vary greatly in craftmanship (some of them are good, none very good, and many not good), and I would not consider getting one sight unseen.

But ...

If you have had a chance to play both the Petroff and the Baldwin, and like the Petroff better, there must be a reason.  There is no substitute for preference in these matters. 

[956angler]

Thanks for replies.  

Not being a pianist, nor versed on pianos; but an engineer I am looking at these instruments from strictly a technical spects. of the build, componets, cost, etc.

I am drawing some conclusions based on some reading I have done on the subject.  Here is what I have concluded from reading the technical data from each instrument.  Again, my analysis is strictly based on the nuts and bolts that make up these instruments.  I realize that I am probably very wrong on some or all of these assumptions.  Please clarify/elaborate or correct me.  Thanks again in advance.

1.  The Baldwin, being the largest of the Three, will inherently by the simple physics of its size have a wider dynamic range and volume.
2.  The Baldwin and Yamaha share similar rim building method/material (continuos laminated maple rim design) that therefore enables them to project sound similarly.  This material is what they also use to manufacture higher end drum shells to maximize the sound's resonance and projection as it is produced by the instrument.  The Petroff uses a different material for their rims and not maple as is the preferred material.  They, Petroff, do employ a continuos rim design as the other two.
3.  The Baldwin and the Petroff both benefit from a Renner action and thus probably have similar feel/touch for the pianist.  The Yamaha, its my understanding, use their own design/manufacture action assemblies.
4.  Soundboards, on all Three instruments, appear to be crafted from better than average Spruce.  Again the larger the soundboard the larger the dynamic range and higher volume.  People with personal experience on either of these instruments can better attest to their particular sound tonal or color characteristics than I can from reading a tech sheet from a manufacturer.
5.  The exterior or cabinets are all black and I assume equally or similarly fashioned.

Again, I am not a musician.  I do not have nor pretend to have any musical knowledge.  I do, however, approach every major purchase or investment I make from a very analytical perspective.   I understand numbers and realize my tendency to immediately attempt to quantify instruments qualities that are usually judged based on different criteria than on the simple physics of their components.

Based on these observations, I am placing the Baldwin higher on the list.  My daughters are taking classical piano lessons.  I live in South Texas where real-estate is cheap, so space in my home is not an issue and there is plenty of room in my game room to accommodate a larger piano.  I think in fact, a piano would nicely complement my early 1900 six legged pool table and the overall piano bar theme going in the room.  I am looking at these pre-owned instruments because they cost around the same as a lower to mid level new instrument.

At the end of the day, pianos are works of art and musical instruments.  Such items may be sold/traded or disposed of at some point, and their value comes into question.  Who knows, I might do what I did after I bought my pool table.  The pool table started as a whim to fill up a game room and ended up being an investment and in the process I learned to play pool and actually look forward to progressively get better at it.

I welcome any thoughts or suggestions.

Thanks



 

[quantum]

I think iumonito makes a good point.  Get your technician, the one who will be tuning and caring for the piano, to evaluate all three pianos.  Analysis by the same person will give you a more level playing field for comparisons of the instruments.

To answer some of your questions:

1. On paper yes, bigger would give you the better sound.  However in practice, the instrument, its voicing, the room you put it in, and the person that plays the instrument are all factors with regard to dynamic range and volume.  An exquisite concert grand put into a poorly designed concert hall can make you strain to hear the details and nuances of the music, while a small piano placed in a non-optimal corner of a living room can create unpleasant shrill room resonance.  Don't get me wrong, concert grands can and have been put to use successfully in residential dwellings.  It is a matter of striking balance.  

3. There is much more to an action then the name.  Action can be a rather personal choice, as the physique and technique of the pianist come into play.  Some pianist feel they can play better with certain types of actions.  The best way to evaluate an action is to play on the action, and observe its effectiveness with regard to the intent of sound vs. the actual sound produced.  

Have you heard the story about Horowitz's Steinway?  After the maestro's death Steinway made significant changes to the action of one of his pianos, stating something along the line that the action was not representative of Steinway's current models.  Following that, they tour the piano labeling it as Horowitz's instrument.  A piece of history has been lost.  

Seeing that your daughters are the ones that play, they should also be the ones to try out these instruments in person, before any decisions are made.  It may also be helpful for you to bring a third party pianist to play for all of you, in order to give all of you the chance to hear the pianos from a distance.  

Not to sway your judgement or anything, IMO I find nothing wrong with placing the Baldwin higher on the list given that it is in a suitable state of repair

[iumonito]

Angler!  What an entertaining post!  Nothing wrong with bringing some thought to the question, but, as Quantum points out, pianos are very complex things and many a factor will negate what seemingly plausible reason could suggest.

Not for the purpose of critique, but rather as a conversation, I will disect some of what you write below.  In the end, I think the message is: get the one your daughters like, after you figure out why they like it, and get the help of people knowledgeable.

an engineer I am looking at these instruments from strictly a technical spects. of the build, componets, cost, etc.

Nothing wrong with that, but beware of believing that by putting together the same chemical components and a few similar parameters you will get two similar people.  Not true of people of course, nor of pianos.

my analysis is strictly based on the nuts and bolts that make up these instruments.  

Again, nothing wrong with that, but for your analysis to be useful to you, you wold need to go a little deeper, and consider things like how long the strings are in relation to their thickness, taking into consideration material and tension for each note, the angle, shape and position of bridges, ribs and pins, and the relative aesthetic choices that, for example, differentiate a Bosendorfer from a nice-vintage Baldwin.  Say all this is design.  Then very importantly introduce design execution, and for used instruments their maintenance and any traumas they may have suffered.

Here are some links I think you will enjoy reading:

https://www.overspianos.com.au/

https://www.stuartandsons.com/

Let me put it another way.  Investigate a little, and don't feel satisfied until you understand the difference between a Steinway Model L and a Steinway Model O.  Very similar in superficial ways, entirely different in any important way.

1.  The Baldwin, being the largest of the Three, will inherently by the simple physics of its size have a wider dynamic range and volume.

Not at all.  Consider that a Bosendorfer imperial is much bigger, yet the SD 10 is much louder and powerful.  Less dissipation of vibration because of rim characteristics and soundboard ribs may account for this.  But then, unless Bose were to do with Yamaha and Baldwin what Bechstein did with Steinway (i.e., loose their identity and try to copy someone else's aesthetic), there is no reason why Bose would change.  Each design is beautiful in its own voice.

However, one thing you can't teach is "tall."  A full grand is preferable, IMO, because the strings are longer, which in turn (particularly for the bass) will give you a more satisfying acoustic profile.  This is so because the strings do not need to be as thick, which in turn makes them vibrate with better frequencies.  So if in fact the other two options are shorter, that would be a big plus for the SD 10.  You can fix many things, but size is not one of them.

You may also enjoy reading this:

https://www.stanwoodpiano.com/

but beware of this:

https://www.pitchlock.com/touchrail.shtml

2.  The Baldwin and Yamaha share similar rim building method/material (continuos laminated maple rim design) that therefore enables them to project sound similarly.  This material is what they also use to manufacture higher end drum shells to maximize the sound's resonance and projection as it is produced by the instrument.  The Petroff uses a different material for their rims and not maple as is the preferred material.  They, Petroff, do employ a continuos rim design as the other two.

You are a little off on this.  Not all maple is equal, and there are several other woods you can make a perfectly functional rim with, most notably beech.  Also, regardless of material identity, the thickness of the rim, and most importantly how it is braced (with the beams below the piano) will make a great difference in how stable (quiet, no vibration, do no dissipation of energy from the soundboard) the rim is.

That said, the SD 10 has a quieter rim than the other two, so your conclusion is right, even though your reasoning is off.

3.  The Baldwin and the Petroff both benefit from a Renner action and thus probably have similar feel/touch for the pianist.  The Yamaha, its my understanding, use their own design/manufacture action assemblies.

Goodness gracious!  If I may translate this: think of Renner as a maker of engines that are placed in various brands of cars.  But the various models of engines vary, and even similar engines will vary greatly because of how they are tuned up.  Additionally, depending on how old the Baldwin is and how it has been rebuilt (if that is the case), it may not be a Renner action.

The Yamaha action is nothing less than the Renner action. Individual pianos, even with the same model action, will sound vastly different depending on how it is adjusted, and the particular characteristics of the hammer set and the keys.  And then there is voicing .... (a topic too esoteric for words, but suffice it to say that without changing the action at all, the piano will sound vastly different depending on the density and hardness of the hammers, which can be adjusted rather easly by your tech with a little bit of needle prickling).

4.  Soundboards, on all Three instruments, appear to be crafted from better than average Spruce.  Again the larger the soundboard the larger the dynamic range and higher volume.

Consider the discussion of Bose above.

Hopefully helpful?  The other thing is that no one (including most particularly me) knows what they are talking about - there are too many factors and too many myths involved.

Hence the advice of trusting one's preferences.  (But chances are the preferences can be readily explained with reference to design and maintenance).

One last word on investment and inflation.  While it is true that if you bought a Baldwin 50 years ago and are selling it now chances are you beat inflation and the Dow by a lot, it is illusory; just a function of the market and preferences.  You are better off if you think of it as a Beanie Baby: get it because you like it, have no expectation that it will hold its value.

[lhorwinkle]

iumonito: It's rare for me to find a lengthy post that I completely agree with. But that's one of them.

To the OP:  Skip the analysis. It won't do you any good. Ordinarily I'd say "trust your fingers and your ears." But since you say you're not a pianist it might make sense to bring one along when you audition pianos.

[956angler]

Thanks to all who took the time to chime in with their input.

I had a piano technician go over the SD 10 and then compile a report for me.

The report basically broke down the piano in its major components and described their overall condition.

All were a 4 out of 4 except the cabinet which had a few scratches but these were minor.  He did tell me that to correct these there was probably going to be a rubbing/buffing needed.

Sound/tone he characterized as powerful, deep based, with a robust mid register, and clean projecting upper register.

Action said to be responsive, even, but perhaps slightly in the lighter end of the weight scale.

This instrument was apparently hand picked by music director at a music academy out of several instruments.  So instrument is a 'choice' piano from a lot several completed SD 10s available at time of purchase.

With all being said, the instrument is now mine and will be loaded on truck and delivered to me soon by a national piano moving company.

Im being told that this instrument will be a huge upgrade from a digital keyboard for my daughters.  

At this point, I am fairly satisfied I got my daughters a decent instrument to grow musically with.  In the future, if they hear or play another instrument that calls to them or that they find better suited for their style of playing or taste, we will explore our options then.

Their instructor seems happy about my choosing the SD 10 and wants to visit with my daughters for a couple of lessons so she can hear/play our new to us piano.

For now, I will just wait for delivery and will set up a local technician to come over and give it another inspection and tuning after I take delivery.

[quantum]

At this point, I am fairly satisfied I got my daughters a decent instrument to grow musically with. 

That is a gross understatement!  You now have an instrument of the caliber found in concert halls and recording studios.  Many concert pianists don't even have such things in their homes. 

Congratulations on your new piano. 

[iumonito]

Congratulations!

To celebrate, here are some recordings made in a piano just like yours.

&feature=related

&feature=related

[956angler]

I don't mean to take anything away from the instrument. 

I just don't like to set myself up for disappointment.  So best to underestimate and be pleasantly surprised.

This instrument, I am being assured, was hand picked by a music academy out of 7 or 8 SD10s that were part of Baldwin's artist fleet and about a dozen SF10s also belonging to Baldwin's artist fleet.

I don't know what criteria was used in the selection process.  But I am sure the person originally given the task of selecting the piano was significantly better versed on the matter than I could ever be. 

Apparently this person purchased a wonderful instrument that was simply too big and cumbersome for the limited space in which the piano ended up calling home.  And thanks to the poor economy in the region, I am fortunate enough to be able to purchase this instrument at a price that seriously rivals a capable but still regarded entry level new instrument such as a Yamaha C3, etc.

Time will tell how things sort themselves out.

Once again, thanks for all info and input.  I was much appreciated.

[956angler]

I am please to report that the SD10 is finally at home. 

The piano is been acclimating for almost a month now and will have a piano technician give it a through cleaning of the soundboard and action and tuning.

Piano arrived as expected out of tune, but not terribly.  Moving company did do a good job at keeping it well wrapped and crated to protect the instrument.

Can't wait to hear it sounding at its best this Thursday evening after technician finished his work on our piano.

Once again, thanks to all who share their knowledge and offered much needed advice when I so sorely needed it.