How long do you practice every day

[Kaylia_D.]

Hi everyone. I have been playing the piano for 11 yearssince i was 7 (now 18). I often wonder what i am doing wrong because my progress is slow. I often get frustrated when i hear people who are playing for like five years or less play chopin pieces and other hard pieces. I know some ppl are just naturally talented moreso than i am. Then i realise prob it has to do with length of practise session each day because i get real lazy. So how long do you practice?

Thank you for your response. Have a nice day!

[Kaylia_D.]

sry about the typo i am now 18. thats what i meant

[Spatula]

Here is what I have learned about practicing.  It’s very true to what Bernhard said in an earlier post but I forgot where he posted it.
An AVERAGE practice period is 2 hours per session, while I usually do about 1 ˝  hours to about 2 hours.  What is required is that the practice is done EVERYDAY, which personally I find very difficult to do, which is why I suxxors at the more advanced pieces.  Practice a section of a piece for about 10 – 20 mins depending on how much time you want to spend on that. Then take a quick 2 min rest to get up and stretch, then sit back down and continue on the next section.  If you encounter (well more like you WILL encounter very difficult) passages in a piece of music, then keep drill that part.  Now here’s the catch.  

Most novice pianists stop drilling right when they achieve the appropriate tempo and shaping for that particular section, but the secret is to KEEP drilling it even more once you get it.  If you can actually dream about that section of music and where your hands go during your sleep, then you really know it (but just don’t depend on dreams to make you think that you’ve already accomplished it, you gotta still keep at it).  Then move onto the next section or piece if you prefer for another 15 mins or so.  Keep at it everyday.  

The best analogy (and I’m not saying that this is your habit) to learning a piece is that of studying for an exam.  Cramming all the stuff in one night will do next to nothing, and will not let your brain sort out what the facts are.  But learning a bit each day say half a chapter or so will help you.  Same thing with the piano; taking small steps will overall help your finger memory.  

Also practice SLOW practice where the tempo is sometimes even 30 % of the normal tempo of the piece.  That helps tremendously with the technique required and finger memory.  The thing is that when you’re starting out a new piece, its not the length of the practice sessions (although you have to let a reasonable amount of practice time to be set aside), but how concentrated your drilling is in that small section of music for say 15 min intervals.

[paris]

hi kaylia!

i think you wrong with that what you said about people who are more talented than you, that doesn't have to be true. (ok i't can be, but...)
most of the people who are succesful as good pianists have in background a lot of hours spent in practising and polishing pieces they play. you said you're lazy. that isn't good, you have to discipline yourself. i know how hard it can be, because i have had that situation, and sometimes i still have it! sometimes is really really really really really hard to practise, especially when you have to get up early (for example in winter, when is still dark outside and cold, and you have to get up to start practise!   ) but then i said to myself-i love it, if i do practise now, my playing will improve and i'll be happier.

you said you have slow progress. how do you practise? does that include your brain, or you just sitting like a bunch of potatoes and moving your hands?
i experienced that practising just 30min. but PROPERLY can have more effects than 2 hours spent in bad practising.
and also, which is very important, you have to practise every day. i'm saying this from my mistakes what i didn't practised disciplined-and my results were...quite bad i think. (my tehnique...ugh...)

you also said that some people who have played piano for 5 years can play hard chopin works, but you didn't mentioned-HOW? maybe they can tehnically do it, but in musical way i don't think they will understand structure they play. (except they are  geeeniiuses   )
you can play chopin piano concerto, but if you don't play it properly, it is sounds silly.
think like this-'every piece i have, i will do it on my best, it doesn't matter if is that piece isn't hard as chopin sonata or stuffs...

i hope this will help. i had problem like you, but i think this forum helped me so much

good luck with practising
ana m.

[Kaylia_D.]

Thank you for advice everyone. I learn by repetition and that is what bores me. I'd play 3-4 bars for 20-30 mins then i get extrememly tired and really bored then something gets my attention and i leave the piano and sometimes thats the practice session of the day. If i am really dedicated and its quiet i can get 1.5 hours. I really have to master this business of practising. Oh by the way i am loacated in the caribbean so I wont have that problem with practsing in the winter .

I hear Yundi Li at one time practiced up to 10 hours a day!

[bernhard]

Thank you for advice everyone. I learn by repetition and that is what bores me. I'd play 3-4 bars for 20-30 mins then i get extrememly tired and really bored then something gets my attention and i leave the piano and sometimes thats the practice session of the day. If i am really dedicated and its quiet i can get 1.5 hours. I really have to master this business of practising. Oh by the way i am loacated in the caribbean so I wont have that problem with practsing in the winter ;D.

I hear Yundi Li at one time practiced up to 10 hours a day!

I will make a wild guess here (correct me if I am wrong).

I think that what may be missing from your practice is aim.

You say that you spend 30 minutes repeating 3 – 4 bars. But why? It is not necessary to spend all that time repeating something. Once you achieved your aim, stop repeating it and move on to something else.

Your aim must be totally specific. “To play better” is too general an aim to have any kind of usefulness. You want aims stated like so:

1.      My aim is to get the correct fingers 7 times in a row.

2.      My aim is to get the correct notes seven times in a row.

3.      My aim is to get the correct rhythm (if you are using a metronome you want to be right on the beat) seven times in a row.

4.      My aim is to bring the melody over the accompaniment.

5.      My aim is to master that tricky hand position /movement so it becomes natural and comfortable.

You get the idea.

You can have several different aims for the same passage of 3 – 4 bars. But even so it should not take you 30 minutes to achieve them. And once you achieve them there is no reason to keep repeating compulsively Of course you want to achieve them consistently, not just once out of sheer chance. And the next day you want to check if can still do it, and if you cannot you may have to repeat the same bars again.

But if you are aimlessly repeating some passage just because of a sense of “duty”, you will not progress very far. Remember: you cannot make a mirror by polishing a brick, no matter how much time you spend doing it.

The time spent practising is completely irrelevant. Only results count. I doubt very much that Yundi li spent ten hours over a 4 bar section. Most likely he had a lot of repertory to cover (if you play through all 32 Beethoven sonatas it will take you 11 – 12 hours).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bizgirl]

Like some other people have already mentioned - it's not how long you practice, but rather how smart you practice.  I'm sure you have heard this numerous times before.  As soon as you find your attention wandering leave the piano - immediately!  It is a complete waste of time to practice if you're not fully focused on the task at hand.  You will end up practicing bad habits, which you will just have to unlearn later.  Normally I can't concentrate for more than an hour at a time.  After that, I just get up and do something else for a while and come back to it later.  On rare occasions I can concentrate for three hours straight.  Keyword rare.  Break it up as much as you need to.  The smaller sessions will be more productive in the long run.

[klavierkonzerte]

also what you are practising is important
don't atempt somthing beyond your  skills, it will only get you frustrated.

[monk]

One important point Bernhard didn't mention in his otherwise good post:

When repeating a passage, NEVER play the next repetition immediately, but ALWAYS make a short pause!

In this pause:

- watch your breath - let it flow freely towards your lower stomach;

- open your ears - hear all the little (or not so little) noises that are going on;

- relax your body; feel the weight of the feet on the ground and of the butt on the bench. And don't sit stiffly, but let your torso move gently.

Only then play.

This not only increases your awareness, it totally removes the hectic, manic pace from your practicing! Many people really practice as if behind their back there would be a taskmaster with a whip...no wonder they're tired quickly!

Best Wishes,
Monk

[super_ardua]

Also,  remember if your concentration wavers,  pause and continue in a few minutes

[paris]

lucky you in Carribean!  

i agree what klavierkonzerto said- NEVER do things wich are under your skills, it can be so bad, and unmotivate you.

[bernhard]

One important point Bernhard didn't mention in his otherwise good post:

When repeating a passage, NEVER play the next repetition immediately, but ALWAYS make a short pause!

In this pause:

- watch your breath - let it flow freely towards your lower stomach;

- open your ears - hear all the little (or not so little) noises that are going on;

- relax your body; feel the weight of the feet on the ground and of the butt on the bench. And don't sit stiffly, but let your torso move gently.

Only then play.

This not only increases your awareness, it totally removes the hectic, manic pace from your practicing! Many people really practice as if behind their back there would be a taskmaster with a whip...no wonder they're tired quickly!

Best Wishes,
Monk

Good point Monk . Micro breaks are surprisingly useful (and they go so much against common sense that everyone is reluctant to give it a go).

And while you are at it, use the time to run through the passage in your mind perfectly before you actually play it (That’s the beauty of mental stuff, since it is all in your mind anyway, you should have no problem in doing it perfectly!). If it is perfect in the mind, the fingers will comply.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Spatula]

One thing I saw pointed out was the breathing aspect.  I still find it very difficult to coordinate my breathing with where to exhale and inhale with the music. Some of it is subjective, but many a times I find myself totally out of breath because I focus too much or maybe my mind wanders.  

[monk]

DON'T breathe "with the music"!

Just let the breath flow freely and unimpeded!

When you practice, always play in a way that you can breathe uninterrupted. If you aren't able to do so, either the passage is too difficult for you or you are playing too fast / too unrelaxed.

The breathing is the best test whether you really have a piece "in the pocket" or not.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[Spatula]

DON'T breathe "with the music"!

Just let the breath flow freely and unimpeded!

When you practice, always play in a way that you can breathe uninterrupted. If you aren't able to do so, either the passage is too difficult for you or you are playing too fast / too unrelaxed.

The breathing is the best test whether you really have a piece "in the pocket" or not.

Best Wishes,
Monk

So it's just like normal breathing then?  Like inhale exhale etc etc etc

[ivoryplayer4him]

i usually practice 4-5 hours at a time, only because piano is so much a part of my life.  When i'm stressed, i got right to it, when things arnt good, thats where i go

[bernhard]

So it's just like normal breathing then?  Like inhale exhale etc etc etc

And never, ever stop breathing! It will kill you!

[schmetterling]

Make sure you listen to the *sound* you're making. I know that might sound elementary, but so many people don't really listen, they just play, play, play.
Before you start practising, play the C major scale, separate hands and very slowly, and listen to the quality of each note. play each note and let it resonate, and just listen =) Once you start to really listen to the sound, you'll progress a lot faster. Do this for everything. When doing technical work, don't just go for 'faster is better'. Every note must sound and be "full".  

[monk]

Hi Schmetterling,

you don't happen to have had lessons with Thomas Lange, don't you?  

(What you wrote is perfectly right, of course.)

Best Wishes,
Monk

[schmetterling]

Pardon my ignorance...I have no idea who that is =|

[arturobc]

Dear friend:

I am new to this, so I didn't know how to reply to all the people in the forum.  My name is Arturo, and I am from Costa Rica.  I agree very much with what you pointed out about the amount of time needed every day, I think it's the best answer a piano player/student could receive.  Besides, I would like to add something that you probably know.  Andor Foldes recommended to study, he recommends every day, 1 part devoted to a classical sonata. We should study the 3 or 4 different movements one each day.  He recommends to this 30 minutes.  Then half an hour also for Chopin Etudes, preferably to concentrate in several works rather than just one etude.  The 3rd half hour can be dedicated to Bach.  Another half hour in contemporary music.  The fifth half hour should be dedicated to a specific technical problem.  The last half hour he recommends to play for pleasure, which includes, of course, what we would like, checking older repertoire, playing 2 works like in a concert, plus new works.  Of course, another half hour can be hour to further divide the study.   He also recommends 2 different periods of study per day, divided by a totally different thing.  And obviously one could arrange this according to his needs.  

Warm regards.

[arturobc]

In my last mail, I wrote that I "agre with you" without mentioning who is "you" and I meant the reply of bizgirl.
Sorry for the omition.

[RachOn]

I agree with most of what has been said here, but the one thing I strongly disagree with is the warning against taking on pieces that are too advanced for you.  For example, I had been playing for four years and was a fourth grader when I heard a recording of Rondo A la Turc, by Mozart.  I was captivated, and the next day entreated my teacher to teach me.  He gave me a grin and said "Four years under your belt and you want to tackle the Turkish Rondo? Well if you think your ready I'll help you." Now some of you might be saying "When I was a four year student I could've played the Turkish Rondo with my toes! And this kids boasting about it?" But let me just say that whatever my ability was, it was beneath the Rondo.  Maybe it should've been on par with it but for whatever reason it wasn't.  But my teacher decided to teach me anyway.  And I worked like a fiend for several months.  And I played it and it was one of the most rewarding experiences of my piano playing career.  Remember: If you only tackle pieces you expect to be able to play, all you can ever do is meet expectations.  True inspiration comes from exceeding expectations.

[scarbo87]

I have 2 points to make regarding this topic :


1.)Personally, I get annoyed when people tell me
"you should not practice too much" or "TAKE A BREAK!"
While this is all very good, we have to remember what it
is we are trying to do (I am talking about aspiring concert
artist only) . If you dream of entering international
competitions, or maintaing a heavy tour schedule, then,I'm
sorry, you have to practice a LOT. Rudolf Serkin advised
his students to practice an 8 hour minimum. "practice untill
you feel as if you are going to drop, then practice an hour
more" where his words. Undoubtably, pianists must work
hard.

2.) On the other hand..i do think that there are a very
few who are just blessed with a unfathamobale talent- of
whom my above message does not apply. Someone said Martha
Argerich's genitic makeup is no different from everyone
else's. I beg to differ. It's very comforting to think that
all humans are born with more or less the same amount of
talent. Not so. There are examples. Argerich, for example
never practiced more than 5 hrs a day, at the most. Richter,
on the other hand (and Serkin) were COMPULSIVE workers who's
sheer amount of disicpline and hard work was beyond the mind
of most people. So how can you say that they all have the
exact same make-up? also, given this information, isn't it
proof that Argerich is more talented naturally?? well, maybe
not..but she at least was born with or somehow acquired traits.

My real point, however, is that everyone is different. People
lean at different rates, people practice more than others,
and people have different views on what to do to attain
success.

If you are not happy with your rate or progress, then you
CANNOT be lazy and you HAVE to practice more. That is really
the only thing to be done. Maybe Serkin was jelous of Agerich? we don't know. But we knew that he did what he did
to get the results that he wanted.
So do what you have to do.

[scarbo87]

I have 2 points to make regarding this topic :


1.)Personally, I get annoyed when people tell me
"you should not practice too much" or "TAKE A BREAK!"
While this is all very good, we have to remember what it
is we are trying to do (I am talking about aspiring concert
artist only) . If you dream of entering international
competitions, or maintaing a heavy tour schedule, then,I'm
sorry, you have to practice a LOT. Rudolf Serkin advised
his students to practice an 8 hour minimum. "practice untill
you feel as if you are going to drop, then practice an hour
more" where his words. Undoubtably, pianists must work
hard.

2.) On the other hand..i do think that there are a very
few who are just blessed with a unfathamobale talent- of
whom my above message does not apply. Someone said Martha
Argerich's genitic makeup is no different from everyone
else's. I beg to differ. It's very comforting to think that
all humans are born with more or less the same amount of
talent. Not so. There are examples. Argerich, for example
never practiced more than 5 hrs a day, at the most. Richter,
on the other hand (and Serkin) were COMPULSIVE workers who's
sheer amount of disicpline and hard work was beyond the mind
of most people. So how can you say that they all have the
exact same make-up? also, given this information, isn't it
proof that Argerich is more talented naturally?? well, maybe
not..but she at least was born with or somehow acquired traits.

My real point, however, is that everyone is different. People
lean at different rates, people practice more than others,
and people have different views on what to do to attain
success.

If you are not happy with your rate or progress, then you
CANNOT be lazy and you HAVE to practice more. That is really
the only thing to be done. Maybe Serkin was jelous of Agerich? we don't know. But we knew that he did what he did
to get the results that he wanted.
So do what you have to do.

[Shagdac]

I enjoy the piano so much, it's often tough to pull myself away. However, there is a big difference between practicing and playing. I may actually "practice" for several hours, but may "play" for 3 or 4 more. Then go back to practicing. For me, it's important to let go during my break times, and play (for fun too). I guess I consider it all pretty fun, however I enjoy playing pieces (or songs) that I have done as accompaniment, and will sit sometimes for lengthy periods and just play for fun, improvising, trying new techniques, and playing just to play, without having to work at anything. Then when I'm done, I go back to whatever I am practicing and really really work at it. By mixing it up like that, I never get bored. Sometimes my family will think I'm crazy spending a day off with 8 or 10 hours (not every day of course) at the piano. What they don't understand is that I do not spend 8 or 10 hours practicing. Some of that is just fun time, playing whatever, and however I want. I've always done that, and find when I tire of practicing it's a great way to "take a break" without dropping the piano completely.

Don't know if anyone else does this, but it works for me.

S

[bernhard]

I have 2 points to make regarding this topic :

And you made it twice too!

(By the way, I agree with you)

[Motrax]

I'm with you Shagdac!   Though with me, for every 30 minutes of practice, I spend 5 minutes messing around. Usually when I'm working on a specific passage, I'll get tired of repeating it, so after every 3-5 repeats, I continue an improvisation after the passage for half a minute. This clears my mind and relaxes my fingers. I find that I get much better results with these little breaks in between.

[dreamaurora]

I agree with most of what has been said here, but the one thing I strongly disagree with is the warning against taking on pieces that are too advanced for you.  For example, I had been playing for four years and was a fourth grader when I heard a recording of Rondo A la Turc, by Mozart.  I was captivated, and the next day entreated my teacher to teach me.  He gave me a grin and said "Four years under your belt and you want to tackle the Turkish Rondo? Well if you think your ready I'll help you." Now some of you might be saying "When I was a four year student I could've played the Turkish Rondo with my toes! And this kids boasting about it?" But let me just say that whatever my ability was, it was beneath the Rondo.  Maybe it should've been on par with it but for whatever reason it wasn't.  But my teacher decided to teach me anyway.  And I worked like a fiend for several months.  And I played it and it was one of the most rewarding experiences of my piano playing career.  Remember: If you only tackle pieces you expect to be able to play, all you can ever do is meet expectations.  True inspiration comes from exceeding expectations.

I disagree with you here. It is necessary to practice difficult pieces from time to time to improve our playing and also to motivate ourselves, however this does not mean we should just take any 'dfficult' pieces and just slog at them for months.

When I choose new pieces to learn, I am careful to spend one or two day to slowly go through the pieces to evaluate the technical and musical difficulties. And after I conclude that the piece can offer me an improvement in certain technical areas and also improve my overall understanding of music, I will take the piece up and learn it in depth. However, I am careful not to prescribe myself pieces that I could not do justice of ( read: make good music ), this will be the case in which I predict I will not be able to play certain passages up to acceptable tempo or in which I could not understand the musical concepts thoroughly.

You may argue that it provides you great satisfaction when you manage to play the Turkish March. However ask yourself, in the months you spent slogging on that piece, you could have spent the time to learn just slightly more advanced pieces and also do a thorough study on them. But its a pity, most teachers nowaday do not impose a strict repertoire progression rule. Working on overly difficult pieces on long term will cause mental burnout and most importantly, uneven and weak musical development.

[dreamaurora]

I have 2 points to make regarding this topic :


1.)Personally, I get annoyed when people tell me
"you should not practice too much" or "TAKE A BREAK!"
While this is all very good, we have to remember what it
is we are trying to do (I am talking about aspiring concert
artist only) . If you dream of entering international
competitions, or maintaing a heavy tour schedule, then,I'm
sorry, you have to practice a LOT. Rudolf Serkin advised
his students to practice an 8 hour minimum. "practice untill
you feel as if you are going to drop, then practice an hour
more" where his words. Undoubtably, pianists must work
hard.

2.) On the other hand..i do think that there are a very
few who are just blessed with a unfathamobale talent- of
whom my above message does not apply. Someone said Martha
Argerich's genitic makeup is no different from everyone
else's. I beg to differ. It's very comforting to think that
all humans are born with more or less the same amount of
talent. Not so. There are examples. Argerich, for example
never practiced more than 5 hrs a day, at the most. Richter,
on the other hand (and Serkin) were COMPULSIVE workers who's
sheer amount of disicpline and hard work was beyond the mind
of most people. So how can you say that they all have the
exact same make-up? also, given this information, isn't it
proof that Argerich is more talented naturally?? well, maybe
not..but she at least was born with or somehow acquired traits.

My real point, however, is that everyone is different. People
lean at different rates, people practice more than others,
and people have different views on what to do to attain
success.

If you are not happy with your rate or progress, then you
CANNOT be lazy and you HAVE to practice more. That is really
the only thing to be done. Maybe Serkin was jelous of Agerich? we don't know. But we knew that he did what he did
to get the results that he wanted.
So do what you have to do.

In response to your post:
1. It is common to hear pianists and piano students who practice as if there's no tomorrow. In fact, this is very common among Asian pianists' who make this 'hot-housing' practice a lifestyle. However, let's take into consideration what needs to be done to have a extremely long practice hour. For most people, that means giving up a lot of social lives and activities. And many also disregard their physical health completely. While it is true that many of us aspire to be accomplished and famous, but ask ourselves, what is the price? It is known that many famous pianists have serious problems with their lives that stem with their obessessions with pianos. In the end,  I believe our physical n mental well being is far more precious. I have scores of pianists telling me already that they wished they were not obssessed with pianos too much when they were young. Now most of them stay in apartments alone, and lonely.

And besides, to be successful , being street smart and knowing the right persons, and also being intelligent and creative ( and this means also non-classical stuff ) are far more important nowadays.

2. I agree that natural talents do exist in individuals, though I personally think it's more to do with the soul than the genetic makeup. As we all know, music comes from deep profound understanding of the piece and also the unique individualism that exist in all of us. Understanding of a piece has more to do with scholarly learning , the unique individualism will be largely dependent on the emotional qualities and the spiritual state of the pianist.

[ahmedito]

During my first 2 years as a piano student I practiced an exagerated quantity of 10-14 hours a day in two 5-7 hour sessions. I knew I was a late starter so I was obsesed. Luckily I never got hurt. Afterwards I cut down so now I practice 5-8 hours a day... add in classes and chamber music and lied rehersals. In vacation time I practice 3-4 hours a day. I started getting more results when I started to devote less time to practice in front of the piano and more time for research, reading and listening to music... and most important of all: thinking and reflection.  

[bernhard]

But its a pity, most teachers nowaday do not impose a strict repertoire progression rule. Working on overly difficult pieces on long term will cause mental burnout and most importantly, uneven and weak musical development.

Yes, but let us not forget that students these days are far less inclined to follow teacher's suggestions. The general attitude seems to be: "I will practise/play whatever I want " (when they practise/play at all).

I do agree with you that progressive repertory is best.

Then again it is surprisingly common how pedestrian most of the repertory suggested by teachers can be.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bizgirl]

I heard a quote by someone (sorry, I can't remember who) about limiting your practice time.  It said not to practice more than four hours a day; if you do you have no life, if you have no life, you have nothing to express in your music.  I think Ahmedito's story is a good illustration of this.  Believe or not, a life outside of piano is good for something.

Shagdac, you mentioned the difference between playing and practicing.  It is easy to play for many hours outside of your regular practice time and I, too, take short breaks throughout my practice sessions to play stuff for fun.

[RachOn]

Because I don't know how to quote, I'm talking to Dreamaurora.  The thing is, with that piece I vastly improved my right hand technical skills.  The scale lines in the middle section allowed my right hand to get tremendously stronger than it was before hand.    So it didn't lead to "weak and uneven" musical develeopment, it led to the first real inspiration I had on the piano, and it motivated me to work far harder at the piano from then on in.  With the exception of about six month period where my teacher was unable to teach me anymore (he was diagnosed bipolar and had to get his life together) I've experienced far more progress since then.  I'm now 15 btw.  So although I may be wrong or I may be an exception, I truly feel that learning that piece was not only satisfying but tremendously beneficial to me as a pianist.


P.S. how do you quote?

[.COM]

P.S. how do you quote?

Simple,

Simply click the quote button on the top right corner of the members box. Then you will be taken to the reply page where you are able to edit the quote. Either delete the other sentences to leave out the part that you want or just quote on the whole paragraph.

I hope this helps.

[RachOn]

I hope this helps.

It has tremendously.  Thank you.  

[amo]

Hi. I do think that all that u do must be very effective. Even so, there is a lot of work to be done. We can't afford in losing time. I do think that if you cannot concentrate, you should go playing with your life a little. We got to hold our life in balance, and is very bad if you are studying just like that, because you know you have to. Go do something else, don't stress yourself with questions like "with if i won't come back". You would. You will even fell the need.
About how many hours by day... i think that if you do like 3-4 hours / day, maybe even 5 when you have a lot of repertoire (but really doing it, and enjoying it), is satisfaing. The joy with wich you study will show you haw balanced your life really is...

[nick]

I used to practice 6 hrs. a day in school. Now I practice 30 minutes every day, and 1 hour on weekends. I think I play much better now.
Nick