\"\"
Piano Forum logo

BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!! (Read 11895 times)

Offline emxo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 1
BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
« on: July 24, 2011, 02:17:53 AM »
I just got my practice tests and my real exam is in about two weeks, but I'm panicking big time right now! I haven't had much time to study but I've finished my book (with moderate difficulty) so if anyone could pleaaaase help me out, I'd be so grateful!

-Does a repeat sign affect the number of measures? (Ex: A song has 8 measures but a repeat sign at the end - does that mean it really has 16 measures?)
-What are the types of dance in the Baroque era? (Description if you can!)
-What does "V/V" mean?
-What does V8-7 mean?
-What are tips to correctly analyze phrasing? How can I be sure that what I think is a phrase really is a phrase?

Please please help! Answer as soon as you can!! :)

Offline vandermozart3

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #1 on: July 29, 2011, 12:50:45 PM »
V/V means the V chord of the V of the tonic

So if it were in G, V of G is D, and V of D is A. So, V/V in G is A

Offline vandermozart3

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #2 on: July 29, 2011, 12:55:40 PM »
There are lots of Baroque dances depending on the country/composer, but I'd say the main ones are:

Menuet
Gigue
Sarabande
Courante
Allemande
Gavotte
Bourrée

Offline oxy60

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1480
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #3 on: July 29, 2011, 03:45:49 PM »
V/V means the V chord of the V of the tonic

So if it were in G, V of G is D, and V of D is A. So, V/V in G is A

Would that be using the key signature of G, making that chord A minor or does that indicate an A major with a C#?

In either case why not use II (two) to indicate the chord if a C natural is wanted?

"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."  John Muir  (We all need to get out more.)

Offline vandermozart3

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #4 on: August 01, 2011, 01:13:27 PM »
No, it is A major, because the V chord of D major is A major...it has to have the C# to lead to the "tonic" of D.

I'm not sure about the II thing - I guess it's just a matter of making the relationship clear? Sorry I can't help you there :)

Offline bachbrahmsschubert

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #5 on: August 05, 2011, 03:33:43 PM »
Not to step over you vandermozart, but it's not labeled a II because of how the chord is functioning. In fact, a II chord (as far as I'm aware in Classical notation) does not exist, it will always be some form of secondary dominant.

You may also see a "bII" which is how some wackos notate the Neapolitan chord. The Neapolitan chord is typically notated with "N" which is infinitely easier to understand, in my opinion.

Offline oxy60

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1480
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 09:36:58 PM »
OK. But what is wrong with an A minor chord in an harmonic progression in the key of G? Actually it could make a nice change ie., II, V or V7, I.
"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."  John Muir  (We all need to get out more.)

Offline nystul

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 270
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #7 on: August 06, 2011, 09:12:22 AM »
OK. But what is wrong with an A minor chord in an harmonic progression in the key of G? Actually it could make a nice change ie., II, V or V7, I.

There is nothing wrong with it at all.  It's one of the most common cadences in classical, jazz, and popular music.  But it is not a secondary dominant (V/V).  It is the ii.  Am comes straight from the key of G so it is the ii of G.  A7 comes from the key of D, which is the dominant of G, so it is V7/V.  Or at least that is how we tend to analyze it.

Offline vandermozart3

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #8 on: August 07, 2011, 11:36:30 AM »
Not to step over you vandermozart, but it's not labeled a II because of how the chord is functioning. In fact, a II chord (as far as I'm aware in Classical notation) does not exist, it will always be some form of secondary dominant.

:) that's okay, I wasn't sure about it anyway, so thanks!

Offline yale_music

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #9 on: August 11, 2011, 11:49:54 PM »
Not to step over you vandermozart, but it's not labeled a II because of how the chord is functioning. In fact, a II chord (as far as I'm aware in Classical notation) does not exist, it will always be some form of secondary dominant.

Not to step over you, bachbrahmsschubert, but you're wrong; II is a very common chord in classical music. In fact, II6 is the most common pre-dominant chord of the classical era (much more common than IV). The reason V/V isn't labeled II is because these are two DIFFERENT chords. In the key of C major, V/V is D-F#-A, and II is D-F natural-A).


Offline yale_music

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 11:52:45 PM »
V8-7 means that the dominant seventh enters after the chord sounds initially, and comes as a passing tone from scale degree 8 (also 1), the tonic. In C major, the V chord in four voices is G-B-D-G. When the top G moves to F while the bass remains G, you have a V8-7 motion. The 8-7 simply denotes the melodic motion above the bass (also known as figured bass): a note an octave above the bass moves to a note a 7th above the bass.

Offline yale_music

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 11:54:45 PM »
-What are tips to correctly analyze phrasing? How can I be sure that what I think is a phrase really is a phrase?

The definition of "phrase" varies considerably depending on who you ask. You should find out what your examiner's definition is before moving forward.

Offline vandermozart3

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #12 on: August 12, 2011, 04:32:14 AM »
Not to step over you, bachbrahmsschubert, but you're wrong; II is a very common chord in classical music. In fact, II6 is the most common pre-dominant chord of the classical era (much more common than IV). The reason V/V isn't labeled II is because these are two DIFFERENT chords. In the key of C major, V/V is D-F#-A, and II is D-F natural-A).




Isn't D-F natural - A written as "ii"? Because it's minor so you use lower case roman numerals.

Offline yale_music

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #13 on: August 12, 2011, 05:07:05 PM »

Isn't D-F natural - A written as "ii"? Because it's minor so you use lower case roman numerals.
It doesn't matter. Some schools use lower-case Roman numerals for minor and diminished chords, and some do not. Abbé Vogler, for example. who was the first theorist to use Roman numerals consistently, did not distinguish chord qualities in his notation. I prefer his method, but I understand the value of using lower-case numerals for minor and diminished chords when still learning harmony. Ultimately, it's your choice.

Offline keypeg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3451
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #14 on: August 12, 2011, 05:18:29 PM »
This is one I wondered about, exam-wise.
Quote
-Does a repeat sign affect the number of measures? (Ex: A song has 8 measures but a repeat sign at the end - does that mean it really has 16 measures?)
Obviously you play 16 measures, but in an exam would you say it "has" 8 or 16?

Offline thinkgreenlovepiano

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 450
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #15 on: August 12, 2011, 05:35:24 PM »

-What are tips to correctly analyze phrasing? How can I be sure that what I think is a phrase really is a phrase?

 


I think you look for where the cadences are, that's the end of the phrase.

 
"A painter paints pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence."
~Leopold Stokowski

Offline yale_music

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
Re: BASIC HARMONY QUESTIONS! HELP PLEASE!!
«Reply #16 on: August 12, 2011, 05:45:11 PM »
I think you look for where the cadences are, that's the end of the phrase.

 

It can't be this simple. For instance, what about an eight-measure phrase that leads to a deceptive cadence, followed by an additional two measures that end with a perfect authentic cadence? This would be a 10-measure phrase with two cadences. Anyway, the point is that the definition of "phrase" is, historically, controversial. That said, cadences are probably a good indicator for the type of exam I assume you're taking.

Offline infiniteworlds123

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 5
Oof ok plz someone helpp meeee
«Reply #17 on: July 02, 2020, 01:22:02 AM »
Hey sry to interrupt but I still don't understand what a V8-7 chord in Harmony is. Does anyone have any clues? Thxxxxxx ;D