physiological reason for my wanting to stretch my wrists?

[silph]

hello! after i type on the computer, or play a little bit of piano, i feel the urge to stretch my wrists. the subjective feeling is that my wrists "have been still for too long" or something, and the slight discomfort urges me to stretch my wrists.

(to let you know what i mean by "stretch my wrists", here are two stretches i feel an urge to do:
- hold my hand palm to the ceiling, as if i'm carrying a platter of food; then grab my fingers with my other hand and bend them downwards and towards my body, causing my palm to start facing away from my body
- hold my hand with my palm facing my face, as if my hand is a handheld mirror and i'm looking at myself in it. i put the palm of my other hand against the back of the hand i'm stretching, and i twist my wrist so that the palm is facing away from the centre of my body and towards the side wall.)


can anyone tell me what is happening physiologically that causes me to have the urge to stretch my wrist, and what stretching my wrist actually is doing, physiologically?

[cmg]

I don't know whether it's so much purely psychological as it is a combination of a physiological need.  Maybe more the latter feeding into the former!

I would imagine you are playing the piano (and typing) with locked, immobile wrists.  A little secret of piano technique that all accomplished pianists know naturally (or learn from a good teacher), is that the wrist should move to and fro, up and down, to expedite performance.  This wrist movement is connected to, and, in fact, originated by the elbow, which should function as a lever, moving backwards and forwards (NOT side to side).  Elbow moves in and wrist moves up.  Elbow moves out and wrist drops down.  This movement is repeated constantly in playing.  You can see its obvious advantage in Alberti bass figures, by the way.  This levered action makes almost any difficult passage playable with ease.  Furthermore, it discharges any tension -- something you must do to avoid injury.

The great teacher Abby Whiteside discovered these levered movements by observing athletes and virtuosos jazz pianists, who, she noticed had incredible facility and played in a looser, relaxed fashion than many classically-trained, amateur pianists.  They were never "taught" to keep their wrists tight and still.  Proficient pro classical pianists, of course, utilize this technique naturally.  Because they never had to think about it, they are usually unable to teach it.  (Horowitz and Perahia are notable examples of this.)  This was Whiteside's great discovery. 

So, back to your problem.  I'd suggest you are playing with an immobile wrist.  This tightness, then, prompts you to need to stretch.  Keep an eye on your wrists.   

[silph]

to everyone:

i seem to be posting in the wrong forum. i just noticed the following on my screen:
==
Please note: This board is primarily intended for professional pianists and piano teachers as well as piano students and amateures at an advanced level. If you are not part of this group, consider posting in the Student's Corner instead.
==
can anyone tell me how to move this thread to the student's corner?


@cmg:

I don't know whether it's so much purely psychological as it is a combination of a physiological need.  Maybe more the latter feeding into the former!

i seems you misread my post a little :-) i /am/ looking for the PHYSIOlogical reasons, more than the psychological reasons!

thanks for your response. it makes me think of some questions that might clarify what kind of information i'm looking for.



it seems that i'm looking for information that is more "precise", about "what's really happening". for example, here are some phrases you mentioned that i honestly don't *really* know what they mean:
- "locked, immobile wrists"
- "Furthermore, [using the elbow to let the wrist be loose] discharges any tension"
- "This tightness, then, prompts you to need to stretch."


But here are some of my confusions:
- what IS the wrist, exactly?
- what does it mean for the wrist to be "locked and immobile"? what actually, objectively and physiologically, is happening?
- what is tension? what does "discharging tension" physiologically mean?
- what does "tightness in the wrist" actually mean? what is actually happening physically when your wrist gets tight? what is stretching actually doing physically?

do you see better, now, what kind of information i'm looking for?

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't know whether it's so much purely psychological as it is a combination of a physiological need.  Maybe more the latter feeding into the former!

I would imagine you are playing the piano (and typing) with locked, immobile wrists.  A little secret of piano technique that all accomplished pianists know naturally (or learn from a good teacher), is that the wrist should move to and fro, up and down, to expedite performance.  This wrist movement is connected to, and, in fact, originated by the elbow, which should function as a lever, moving backwards and forwards (NOT side to side).  Elbow moves in and wrist moves up.  Elbow moves out and wrist drops down.  This movement is repeated constantly in playing.  You can see its obvious advantage in Alberti bass figures, by the way.  This levered action makes almost any difficult passage playable with ease.  Furthermore, it discharges any tension -- something you must do to avoid injury.

The great teacher Abby Whiteside discovered these levered movements by observing athletes and virtuosos jazz pianists, who, she noticed had incredible facility and played in a looser, relaxed fashion than many classically-trained, amateur pianists.  They were never "taught" to keep their wrists tight and still.

There's a fundamental error in Whiteside's thinking though. A wrist can be still without the muscles being tight. When you're properly connected to the keyboard and you release the arm enough, the arm becomes a taut chain. The wrist is suspended in a straight line not by localised tension or effort, but due to the equivalent effect of pulling both ends up a rope in opposite directions.

If a wrist is fixed still by fusing the local muscles that's bad. However, excessive wrist movement can be even worse. A high wrist in particular is even more easily destabilised by gravity or contact with the piano, if you relax the muscles. So it can lead to even greater efforts and tensions. It's not really about whether you are still or moving- but about HOW you make it happen. When the whole mechanism works well, you can have an extremely still wrist without either tensions or stiffness. In the past I personally used to play with a ludicrous excess of wrist movement- which actually contributed to putting a huge burden on it. Keeping things better balanced keeps it a lot looser and freer- although it actually stays a good deal more still. Looking at the exterior (without understanding what creates balance inside) can be very deceptive. Whiteside's writings had my arms and wrists flailingly around but actually caused even greater stiffness during the moment in which I depressed the note. The looseness and even flopiness I could find while moving was in vain- because it was impossible not to regularly stiffen up while actually moving keys.

I think of it that the wrist should be "movable"- rather than necessarily "moving".  

[silph]

@nyiregyhazi:

can i share with you something i just noticed?
i can emulate some of the "tiredness" that makes me have an urge to stretch, just here as i sit in front of my computer reading your post:
- i'm holding my forearm in front of me (so it is parallel with my chest/torso, and parallel to the floor) and the palm of my hand facing the floor. i am relaxing my hand, so it is naturally curved (ie instead of stretching it out).
- now, if i use my wrist to lift up my hand so that the thumb is more or less parallel to my forearm, and hold it there for a little bit of time, i notice my wrist getting tired, and i want to stretch it.
- if i then let it go, and let my wrist go loose and floppy, and let my hand fall down and pointing to the ground, it feels wonderful. that tiredness i felt in my wrist dissappears, which feels so relieving.

but at the piano, i'm getting the former (tired wrist) feeling even as i place my hands on the keys; my wrist looks "still" but it still gets tired!

are you saying that if i managed to make your main idea work for me (ie having my arm and wrist in good position just the way a chain or rope hangs from being kept in position at both ends of it), then my wrists will be in proper playing position (ie more or less horizontal to the keys), BUT that it will feel as good as the second scenario in the experiment (ie letting the wrist flop loosely)?


i am wondering about some of the videos that seem more arm-weight affiliated, that i've seen; where they lift their hands up from the keyboard and their wrists flop down very loose. to me, that /looks/ like it relieves the muscles that keep your wrists horizontal from continually doing their work.

i want to make sure i'm understanding what you're saying:
- are you saying that it /does/ in fact let those keep-wrist-horizontal muscles let go for a little bit, when you lift your hands up and let your wrists loose, but
` a) it's not necessary to have so much muscular work to keep your wrists horizontal, in the first place; because your main idea takes care of that, and
` b) even if you do let your wrists go loose when you lift your hands up, they will likely stiffen again when your fingers go down on the keys again?

[nyiregyhazi]

"- if i then let it go, and let my wrist go loose and floppy, and let my hand fall down and pointing to the ground, it feels wonderful. that tiredness i felt in my wrist dissappears, which feels so relieving.

but at the piano, i'm getting the former (tired wrist) feeling even as i place my hands on the keys; my wrist looks "still" but it still gets tired!"

Sure- there's nothing inherently relaxing about being still- either at a piano or away. However, you can learn how to be totally comfortable by getting a feel for the minimum effort needed in both states. Away from the piano, you can learn how to feel the least effort required to only just stop gravity collapsing the wrist. Then once playing the keys even this effort can be released too.

Away from the piano practise hanging your wrist limp. Then feel a movement that is done so lightly, it barely overcomes gravity. When you stop moving, you cannot release this. If you released it even a fraction, you would start falling. At the top, try to feel how even the slightest release of the minimal effort allows gravity to very slowly pull you back down. It's the same principle as in the chicken clucking exercise for the shoulders. By scarcely moving at all, you improve sensitivity- so you no longer hold the wrist in a fixed position with "spare" effort but balance it perfectly. This is keeps it totally movable. 


"then my wrists will be in proper playing position (ie more or less horizontal to the keys), BUT that it will feel as good as the second scenario in the experiment (ie letting the wrist flop loosely)?"

yeah, exactly. The effort is closer to the hanging wrist. Imagine a chain hung from one end compared to one pulled fairly taut from each end. There's no internal stiffness in the latter. Relaxing only causes limp dangling when you're supported at just one end.


"i am wondering about some of the videos that seem more arm-weight affiliated, that i've seen; where they lift their hands up from the keyboard and their wrists flop down very loose. to me, that /looks/ like it relieves the muscles that keep your wrists horizontal from continually doing their work."

Yeah. It's extremely valuable to be able to do that. But my belief is that everyone (who is successful) does much the same when contacting keys. The only time my wrists were relaxed before was when they were dangling, without contact with the keys. Upon contact, they stiffened. This is the moment that everything depends on.



"- are you saying that it /does/ in fact let those keep-wrist-horizontal muscles let go for a little bit, when you lift your hands up and let your wrists loose, but
` a) it's not necessary to have so much muscular work to keep your wrists horizontal, in the first place; because your main idea takes care of that, and
` b) even if you do let your wrists go loose when you lift your hands up, they will likely stiffen again when your fingers go down on the keys again?"

yeah, that's it. Dealing with tensions in between notes is pretty much futile- unless it spills over into what you do WHILE depressing the notes. It's like the equivalent of training someone who is careless at handling a knife how to apply plasters to wounds- rather than how to actually handle the knife. Relaxing after doesn't get to the real issues. People have assumed that any muscular activity is terrible and must instantly be turned off- which is why the "and then relax" is so popular. People who play with little feeling of effort generally just assume they must have just relaxed really quickly and that those who are stiff obviously need to relax faster after moving a key. But it's a collossal simplification to think that everything works harder to move the key and that everything is free to relax after. To retain unwanted stiffness after the key is depressed would be bad. But if you need to relax after playing a key, what you really need most of all is to eradicate what you're relaxing from at its source.

[cmg]

There's a fundamental error in Whiteside's thinking though. A wrist can be still without the muscles being tight.

Whiteside never indicated that a still wrist was a tense wrist.  Many times the wrist must be still to allow tight, rapid digital work such as ornamentation, etc. to be executed.  Her observations are born out for any pianists who have mastered Chopin Etudes.  They are unplayable at tempo without a flexibly moving wrist.  By the way, the rising and falling wrist is almost not observable.  The movement Whiteside was talking about was minute.  Almost more a feeling of movement than an observable flailing about of wrists.  Watch Argerich videos.  It's all there.

[nyiregyhazi]

Whiteside never indicated that a still wrist was a tense wrist.  Many times the wrist must be still to allow tight, rapid digital work such as ornamentation, etc. to be executed.  Her observations are born out for any pianists who have mastered Chopin Etudes.  They are unplayable at tempo without a flexibly moving wrist.  By the way, the rising and falling wrist is almost not observable.  The movement Whiteside was talking about was minute.  Almost more a feeling of movement than an observable flailing about of wrists.  Watch Argerich videos.  It's all there.

I think the problem is that striving for wrist movement as a goal in itself can totally screw things up. At the moment I'm playing op. 25 no. 12 a lot. I have to keep the possibility wrist movement to an absolute minimum through total avoidance of up and down motions- otherwise I'd need to hold it tightly to stop it collapsing. If I thought "keep still" that would be terrible. But the solution is not to actually strive for movement or to force stillness. It's low effort balance.

I'm not necessarily opposed to exercises that involve willful wrist movements to free up those who make it ultra-stiff. But I honestly think that generally the less wrist movement there is the better- as long as you don't repress it with stiffness. Small movements at the wrist are simply the natural consequence of a loose wrist- I don't think there's any need to willfully induce them. If you make movement a goal in itself, it can actually make it even harder to keep the wrist loose on depression. I think that Whiteside's writings can be extremely dangerous for anyone who does not yet have an extremely good background in activation of the fingers. They are extremely polarised and involve literally zero attention to many key elements of the whole.

I'm having to work consciously on moving in a way that does not cause my wrists to move around so much. I need to acquire a more consistent line from the elbow to the fingertip. I think it's essential to get that (without stiffness), before thinking of deliberately causing the wrist to break alignment. I think the most important thing for any pianist's wrist is the ability to make it consistently connect forearm and hand without the muscles being at all tight. I do value gradual up and down motions of the arm- but generally not in a way that changes the angle of the wrist one bit. I think that's an extremely advanced technique.

[cmg]

I'm having to work consciously on moving in a way that does not cause my wrists to move around so much. I need to acquire a more consistent line from the elbow to the fingertip. I think it's essential to get that (without stiffness), before thinking of deliberately causing the wrist to break alignment. I think the most important thing for any pianist's wrist is the ability to make it consistently connect forearm and hand without the muscles being at all tight. I do value gradual up and down motions of the arm- but generally not in a way that changes the angle of the wrist one bit. I think that's an extremely advanced technique.

Don't you see that the wrist movement IS the result of the indispensable and necessary elbow movement?  Sit at the keyboard, arms loosely at your side, hands just above the keys, and move your elbows forward, then backward. Watch what your wrists do automatically and naturally.  They rise ever so slightly with the elbows' forward movement and they fall ever so slightly with the elbows backward movement  This is Whiteside's observation and the heart and soul of Russian piano technique.  I studied with a student of the legendary Nadia Reisenberg who said Reisenberg coached her through every Chopin Etude expressly to teach her this technical approach with the ever-so-slightly rising/falling of the wrists that occurs with the natural backward/forward movement of the elbows.  Mastering this literally makes playing the piano much easier, more fluent.  Without it, you can't get Chopin Etudes at tempo.  Interestingly, Opus 25, No. 12 was my introduction to this technical approach with Reisenberg's student.  When I nailed it, the Etude took off! 

And this was Whiteside's important contribution:  she attempted to describe this in her writing and, of course, her teaching.

[nyiregyhazi]

"Don't you see that the wrist movement IS the result of the indispensable and necessary elbow movement?  Sit at the keyboard, arms loosely at your side, hands just above the keys, and move your elbows forward, then backward. Watch what your wrists do automatically and naturally."  

Sure. That's exactly what I don't want. My wrists are constantly bunching up too much- meaning that the muscles have to work a lot harder not to collapse down under gravity. That's why I have to make a conscious effort to think of the arm as a whole. My elbow tends to go forward way too much- so I have to concentrate on keeping it back, so it pulls any unwanted angle out of the wrist. The ability to maintain this if desired is absolutely essential. I don't believe that aiming to deliberately moving the wrist around is productive unless you have such a foundation to depart from.  

I have no doubt that for some people this is what they need to improve a rigid wrist. But unless you have the option of taking out all but the bare minimum movement (without using stiffness to do it) there's a real problem. My rising wrist in that etude causes a bobbing motion that I'm having to work extremely hard to eradicate. It means that I fall too much into my 5th and have to brace hard to maintain accuracy. I have the same in op. 10 no. 1. When I've filmed myself, it's extremely visible that the moments where I struggle involve excess motion at the wrist. The more comfortable I am, the flatter I see the wrist managing to stay.

I really cannot understand why the wrist itself would be the focus for attention though. Why not look at the shoulder or the elbow, or even the whole arm as one entity? As long as I keep my elbow back, the wrist is kept from rising or collapsing with very little effort. I have plenty of ways of moving my elbow from side to side and up and down. The whole arm can move freely behind the fingers- but the wrist can keep alignment between hand and forearm. I cannot see any reason why the wrist needs to be deliberately moved- rather than naturally allowed to respond extremely faintly to motion of the arm as a whole.

I think it's very rare to see this type of movement controlled effectively:

This is more my idea of a "normal" approach

Some people who are locked up might need to add more movement to achieve that quality, but there are going to be plenty who have to work on REDUCING wrist motions to that bare minimum.Thinking of the upper arm leading the sideways motions will automatically lead to those tiny motions- provided that you can keep the wrist loose. I'm convinced that they are almost entirely passive in most pianists- rather the result of the elbow prodding forwards.

[cmg]

Well, those youtube examples illustrate EXACTLY what I am talking about:  the levered motion of the elbows and the resultant rising and falling of the wrists!  LOL!  You must really have a floppy wrist issue if you find the playing you selected as illustrating what you want to achieve.  What you selected is textbook perfect and what I was trying to describe to you.  Good luck in correcting your wrist problem.

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, those youtube examples illustrate EXACTLY what I am talking about:  the levered motion of the elbows and the resultant rising and falling of the wrists!  LOL!  You must really have a floppy wrist issue if you find the playing you selected as illustrating what you want to achieve.  What you selected is textbook perfect and what I was trying to describe to you.  Good luck in correcting your wrist problem.

I'm not convinced it is instigated by the elbows- at least, not in the 2nd video. Every finger action produces a reaction force- that acts upon the the wrist. Some pianists will try to fight this and strive to stay perfectly still with stiffness. They need to learn how to let go. But those who keep the wrist free will see small movements in response. It happens automatically. Lisitsa does very big ones indeed, but that is most unusual.

Take a look here:

One of the few bit that looks reasonable are the G major at about 20 seconds in and the 2nd C major bars about 25 seconds in. The wrist hangs level and moves very little on these. Elsewhere it bunches up and regularly gets stuck there- because letting it flop down again would just destabilise too much. Excessive movement displacing the wrist actually leads to more tension than the bars in which my wrist was left to simply hang in alignment. Since then I've been working a lot on actively pulling back a little at the elbow. It makes a hell of a difference.

[emma84]

May be your wrist is too static and stiff while playing piano? And it needs more breath and flexibility? You can do it if your wrist will be express your sound idea, that will fill up the wrist with free vibrations and energy that eliminates all unnecessary tensions in the wrist.
And working with computer isn't healthy not only for your wrist, but also for elbow, neck, spine, eyes...