Helping a kid getting rid of some bad habits?

[tocca]

A friend of mine asked me if i could give her daughter some pianolessons.
She's eleven years old and selflearned. I've heard her play a couple of times when visiting them, and she's not that bad actually... but she's got some bad habits. Her fingering is not good and she needs to be taught a bit about rytm.

I told her mother that they would be much better off if she could get a professional piano teacher. I have no teaching experience myself.
She said they couldn't afford it, they have four kids and every one of them have lots of activities and the girl in question doesn't want to give up anything else.


So, my question (if i actually will start teaching the girl):

Last time i heard her she played Fur Elise (what else) and the beginning of Griegs "In the hall of the mountain king".
She played the beginning of Fur Elise fairly, but she can't handle the faster part later on. The Grieg piece is obviously way above her level.

I will have to give her pieces which are much easier, and at the same time try to work on her fingering and rytm as well as sightreading and some other things.

My feeling is that she will just see me as a "kill-joy"! Any tips on how i should go about this?
Should i really "restart" her at almost the beginning or is it better let her play things she like (within reason) for the time being, and just work on fingering and rytm initially.

Above all: Do you think i will do her a disfavour by teaching her?
Maybe i should talk to them again about getting a professional teacher?

[bernhard]

This is a tall order: teaching an 11 year old who has bad habits.

To accomplish this you need two skills:

1.      Know what the good and bad habits are yourself, and know how to show/impart them (that is the easy part).

2.      Have the technology to convince the 11 year old to change her way – which by now is very comfortable – of playing to a different way of playing which will feel utterly unnatural and positively wrong. By the way a lot of ”professional” experienced teachers are at a loss here as well.

If the 11 year old happens to be exceptionally mature, is aware the she has bad habits is determined to replace them with goodd habits, and regards you as an authority having nothing but admiration for your playing and an irrepressible desire to emulate you, then of course all she needs is a little guidance from you and she will excel.

Unfortunately such ideal students are far and in between. Now comes the interesting point: It is this sort of ideal student who will actually be at most risk if they get a teacher who does not know much, or a “bad” teacher, because they will actually follow instructions to the letter and work industriously on the teacher’s directives. So if she is this sort of student then definitely suggest to mother to look for a really good teacher (especially if you think you can “ruin” her).

However – and I am guessing wildly here – you probably have in your hands a little brat who will not follow any of your instructions, who is quite pleased with her progress so far (the necessary condition for teaching only appears when the student is dissatisfied with his/her own progress), and who most likely will display the very common attitude: “I am going to play in any way I please. What does this guy know anyway?”

If this is the case, rest assured, you will not be doing much damage (and possibly not much good either).

And from your post I gather that you will not be getting any (or much) payment. So before you take on this assignment, consider this: What are you going to get out of this deal? Because unless this is clear to you, and you are satisfied with what you will be getting, very soon teaching this sort of student (assuming that she is this sort of student – I may be wrong) will be a major energy draining. You will start resenting the assignment and hating the student. Not a good situation.

Here is my suggestion if this is the case. Instead of focussing on the student, focus on your own teaching skills. Accept this student as a way to gain experience in teaching this sort of student. Approach the assignment in a spirit of curiosity: “What can I do to replace this student’s bad habits with good ones?” Consider that you will have succeeded, not if the student has become perfect, but if your own ability to teach has increased. In this way, you will be getting a lot of experience and knowledge out of this deal Does that make sense?

Teaching impossible students (assuming that she is an impossible student) can be quite exhilarating and empowering as long as you focus on your results and your improvement rather than the student’s. Funny enough, by doing this you will probably be giving her superlative teaching as well.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[tocca]

Thanks a lot Bernhard.

I'll have to think about this, i was already convinced that this would be a big task but maybe it's even impossible (for me).

Doing this as a way to develope my teacher skill is something i hadn't thought about, but i can see the wisdom in it.

Of course she isn't that ideal student you mention, but i don't think she is as bad as your following example.
According to her mother, she really wants to take lessons and she is quite mature for her age.
She also very much like when i play something on the piano.
I do think she will follow my guidance, atleast initially. But i'm no authority on this, far from it, and after a couple of weeks or so if she finds everything boring i think there's a great risk that she'll loose interest.

If i do this, and find that she really is a good student, more like your ideal student example, then i'll make sure and stress the importance of a professional teacher even more.
She do have some talent as it seems, she's got good feeling for music. Even if she stumbles quite a bit on most what she plays, she does "make music" as opposed to just robotically playing the notes.

What do you think about the thing i said in the first post, about how to start off?
Should i let her play what she likes for a start (within reason though) and concentrate on some of the bad habits or is it necessary to sort of start over?

[bernhard]

What do you think about the thing i said in the first post, about how to start off?
Should i let her play what she likes for a start (within reason though) and concentrate on some of the bad habits or is it necessary to sort of start over?

This of course goes without saying.

Unless a student loves to bits the piece they are assigned they will not put any work into it. In fact this is true of everyone. No one (including me) will touch a piece they don’t care for no matter what excellent reasons for playing it there might be.

Of course, some people have more wide taste than others, and taste definitely changes with age. Pieces I would not touch with a bargepole in my teenager years, now I cannot get enough of them (and vice-versa).

Also an 11 year old may simply not know yet what she likes or dislikes, so be prepared to play/give her CDs of lots of different pieces just to figure out what kind of “style” she likes.

Finally if she likes a piece that is truly impossible for her (actually I don’t believe in this: any piece can be learned by anyone, but it may take such a long time that   frustration will get an upper hand), it is always possible to do 3 things:

1.      Find a piece that sounds more or less the same but is within her level. The only limitation for this approach is how much repertory you know. In any case, you can always ask me.

2.      Stick with the impossible piece, but assign other pieces/exercises that will pave the way for the mastery of that piece in the future. The motivation to do such pieces is the knowledge that they are leading to the piece she likes.

Have a look here for an example on how to go about this:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1083060519

3.      Simplify the piece she wants to learn by outliningit. I am completely against the usual commercial simplified versions of pieces, and I never assign them to my students. The reason is simple. Such commercial simplifications actually butcher the original piece beyond recognition. Many times they change the key signature to make sight reading simpler (e.g., I have seen a version of the Moonlight transcribed to A minor). If you learn one of these simplified versions, it will not help you learning the original and it may even hinder your progress on it. What I am suggesting is quite different. To use the example of the Moonlight, one way to simplify it is to get rid of all the triplets, but beep everything else the same (including the original fingering). To learn this “outline” is manageable even for a total beginner, and at the same time it prepares the ground for learning the full piece later on. A surprising amount of the romantic repertory is amenable to this treatment, which incidentally throws light on the compositional process and the formal structure of the piece.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Swan]

What do you think about the thing i said in the first post, about how to start off?
Should i let her play what she likes for a start (within reason though) and concentrate on some of the bad habits or is it necessary to sort of start over?

Hello Tocca.  Just read your post and thought I'd add my 2 cents worth.

Don't feel bad about not being a 'professional' teacher.  We all had to start with our very first student!  And who knows, you might get a taste of it, and decide to become a teacher - either full time or part time.  That's how I started ten years ago.

concentrate on some of the bad habits

A comment about this.  Keep in mind this girl has been cruising along doing 'well' by herself.  If you were to now come in and show her all the things she's doing wrong it could be very deflating, which could lead to withdrawal... and then all sorts of time wasters come into it.

Instead of pouncing on everything she does wrong, concentrate on the things she does correctly.  Be specific in your praise.  You don't have to gush, just say, "You do this well, or very well, or excellent" (whatever the case).

When you do correct bad habits, simply say, "Watch the way I hold my hand/curve my fingers" etc.  Now you try.  This approach avoids the whole, "no you're doing it wrong" etc.  Just offer the alternative ask her to do it.  Praise when she does it.  Remind when she doesn't.

No need to go 'back to the beginning' so to speak.  Find repertoire of a similar standard (or something she really wants to play).  Add to the lessons scales, sight reading exercises, improvisations, duets ( really helpful for rhythm work).

Don't be surprised if her siblings want lessons too!  And then be prepared for word of mouth to spread the news that you're now a teacher - kids have a way of sharing the information they're excited about.

Have a think now, about what you're going to do if this does happen.  Can't give free lessons to everyone!

[tocca]

I really appriciate all the inputs.
I do think i will go ahead with this, i'm unemployed and having something meaningful like this to fill some of the free time would be great.

A future as a pianoteacher? Well in my late teens i could only see two possible careers ahead. Concert pianist or piano teacher.
Deep down i certainly realised, even back then, that i hadn't got what it took to become a concert pianist.
The rest is history, i was to immature and lazy to pursue my dream and started working right after school.

I have never considered teaching piano without having the proper education, and although it's never to late to study it's certainly not as easy when you got kids/house/loans and so on.

Somehow, to me, teaching without a degree feels like i would be sort of a charlatan. Maybe i shouldn't think like that.
In this case with this eleven year old girl, it's more like: Either i give her lessons or she gets no lessons, and even if happen to be a not so good teacher i still believe i'll do better than if she continues on her own.

I actually don't think i'll be such a disaster as a teacher, i'm good with childrens and some of my friends often come to me with their problems because they think i'm good to talk too, a good listener.

Again, thanks for all the help. I will post later on if/when i have given some lessons, and tell you how it goes.

[tocca]

A little update on this...

We just had our first lesson today, and one thing i'm wondering how to tackle: She's got very small hands!
She can reach an octave, if she stretches and play out on the edge. In other words, even with just two notes an octave apart she need to "roll it" for it to be comfortable.

Do i show her how to roll chords, or is it better to "strip the piece" of some notes for the time being?

Rolling a chord effectively, so it sounds good, isn't easy when your new. It feels like it's to early to start showing something like this, but if you can't reach an octave it will be a lot of "outlining" in every other piece she plays!
Any thoughts on this?

Otherwise everything seems good. She's very enthusiastic about this as it seems. She had made a practise schedule on paper that she showed me, and she took notes a couple of times during the lesson (i don't know if that's common or not though, i only know i didn't when i was young)  

[aisling_7]

Have you taken lessons before?  Yes? Thought so! There is your education.  You know what teachers did to encourage you, motivate you, correct you.  In college, you may learn the theory of teaching, but everyone develops their own way of teaching.  In fact, many teachers hate education classes, because they feel they are pointless!  Perhaps you don't have to change her music.  Has she learned the notes?  If she is at the playthrough stage, then this might just be where you need her to be.  It might be very difficult for her to correct bad habits when she is thinking "finger 3 on note A."  Use this as an opportunity to correct her technique on a piece that she kinda sorta knows.  There is no telling how much she will grow with this piece.  I would also recommend you take a look at www.practicespot.com if you haven't already.  It has some awesome practice tips!

Jackie  

[bernhard]

To add (a twist) to what Jackie said:

Have you taken lessons before?  Yes? Thought so! There is your education.  You know what teachers did to encourage you, motivate you, correct you.

Perhaps just as important is what teachers did that you hated and that you come to believe was completely and utterly wrong. So, do it differently!

On the question of octaves, all four options are valid:

1.      Roll the octaves.

2.      Omit notes (they can be brought back once her hands have grown)

3.      Work on repertory that spans less than an octave (e.g. Burgmuller studies op. 100).

4.      Divide notes between hands (if possible).

Also, from the beginning insist on consistent fingering. Never mind correctfingering (since this may change form person to person. But once she uses a finger, she must always use that same fingering. The bad habit is not using a different fingering from the one suggested (either by the book or by you), but using a different fingering every time. This really confuses the brain and is the main reason behind an untold number of mistakes.

Congratulations on a good start and best of luck!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[tocca]

Just thought i'd tell you a bit about how it's going so far.

First, a quote from what Swan said:
..................
"Don't be surprised if her siblings want lessons too!  And then be prepared for word of mouth to spread the news that you're now a teacher - kids have a way of sharing the information they're excited about."
..................

Hehe, you were very right! It didn't take that long before one of her sisters wanted lessons too, and soon after that their brother.
Since then, i've had atleast five or six other families asking about lessons!

I'm giving lessons to the both sisters and their brother, but i've said no to the others. I have to give it much more time before i decide on taking others too.

Everything is progressing nicely though, the oldest sister (which i started out with first) is really interested in learning and seems to practise regulary. She's improved quite a lot and it feels really good to be helping.
The other sister plays Harmonica (started this summer) so she knows a bit about sightreading and stuff... makes it a bit easier.

The young kid (eight years old) is a complete beginner, and that's an entirely different experience. I really have to remember that he doesn't know anything about Piano, so that i'm not too hard on him.
He doesn't practise much (if at all) as it seems, and i find it hard motivating him since there's really nothing much he can play yet.

I'm considering copying Bernhards way of teaching. Having lessons everyday or atleast every other day, for a time. He's interested during lessons, listens to what i say, but once i'm gone his interest seems the same!

I'll have to think about it.

[kaff]

This is great - it's so interesting to get feedback on what's happened after the original post.  I wish more people would do this!

Kathryn