Modes and Progressions

[nickt]

Hi, i have started to look into the world of Diatonic Modes, but am wondering about Chord Progressions, how do i find out what the Dominent/Subdominent Chords are specific to the New Tonic Chord ?? Any help on this would be great. Thanks.

[healdie]

I don't really know how it's done it relation to classical music (I come from a Jazz theory background) but I would suggest ditching names like Dominant etc it only confuses the situation and doesn't provide the same results as a regular Major scale for example in the 4th mode lydian your Tonic chord is a Major 7th chord but the chord built of the 5th degree is C Major

F, G, A , B, C and using this will make the piece sound like its back in the major key again so you lose that characteristic Lydian quality even though the FMaj7 is the tonic, so always avoid using chords that will pull the piece back to the "Parent" key so in the Dorian mode never use the "Parent" tonic so in D Dorian never use the C Major as you will destroy the Dorian feel and make the piece sound C Major again so the 5th chord does not always act as a Dominant and does not always provide that harmonic stability and sometime is too stable and breaks the feel of the Modality

Most modal piece/tunes use very few chords to retain this character for example So what by Miles Davis only has two chords and is in the Dorian Mode

the trick is to pick chords that always suggest that mode and cannot be mistaken for anything else so if I wanted to sound Lydian in C I could go CMaj7 to BMin7 wich would be I - VII

Sorry for the long post and I hope this is fairly clear if you want more I did an assignment on Modal Chord Progressions for college that I could send if you need more info

[nickt]

Hi Healdie and thanks for your reply, i'm afraid i havn't really grasped the Diatonic Modes yet? Had my head in a theory book for 3 hours this afternoon but still no joy. I can understand your comment on staying away from the parent chord but in your example you state "if i wanted to sound Lydian c I could go CMaj7 to BMin7" but i am thinking but C is the Parent chord (Even though they sound great!) so how does that work? Sorry if i am missing something here Healdie.

Thanks.

[healdie]

oops sorry I didn't make it clear that that example is in the key of C Lydian (G Major) I'll roughly run through the modes sorry if you've already covered this

but for every sclae it has modes these are simply the notes of that scale but starting in a different place so for the Major scale in C you have

C Major (Ionian) - C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
D Dorian - D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D
E Phygian - E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E
F Lydian - F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F,
G Mixolydian - G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G
A Aoelian (Natural Minor) - A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A
B Locrian - B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B

So as you can see D Dorian is the same as F Lydian which is the same as B Locrian etc, so this will make it easier to see why it can be difficult to make one mode sound distinctive and the key as I've stated is to use few chords and highlight the what I call the colour notes

What I mean by colour notes is you can think of the modes as the Major or Minor scales with alterations, by this I mean they all have a basic Major or Minor feel to them with an altered note so

Dorian = Minor Scale with a Major 6th
Phrygian = Minor scale with a Minor 2nd (flat 9)
Lydian = Major Scale with a Augmented 4th (#11)
Mixolydian = Major Scale with a Dominant Seventh
Aeolian = Natural Minor Scale
Locrian = Natural Minor Scale with a Minor 2nd and a Diminished 5th (so it's tonic chord is a Minro 7th fat 5)

so to demonstrate this further if you take F Lydian you could think of it as the 4th mode of C Major or you could treat it as F Major with a augmented 4th interval which naturals the Bb I find this second way of looking at them easier as it further distinguishes them from the parent key so don't think C Major with an emphasis on the F, think F Major with a B natural

So when writing melodies make sure that you target the colour tones of the mode and you'll get a stronger modal resemblance

I hope this clears some of it up a bit further heres another Modal example by Joe Satriani I know it's a guitar piece but it shows the targeting of the colour notes really well it's in C Lydian and he really targets that F# bringing out that Lydian quality

[/youtube]

[nickt]

Thanks again for your reply, i think i am starting to get it a little bit more now, i understand the first example when you simply rotate the Root note to create different modes of any scale and that it is easy to fall back to the Parent key.

But not sure still on the second example? Am i correct in saying that you can be in a certain Major Or Minor Key, i.e G Major, so i would be using the G Major scale, i would then choose to play in Lydian Mode which would mean my G Major scale would be altered, in this case by the Augmented 4th. Also that my root would not be G anymore, as it is now C because it is the 4th note up from G which is the Lydian Mode (Mode 4).

My confusion is if i begin a Progression with C Lydian,

1, Is my new Root key C and no longer G?

2, When i write a Melody over the top, i would use the Lydian G Major scale Starting on G      still and not on C even though the Root key has changed?

3, When i think of C Lydian it makes me think The key of C so the root is F, where as what i think you are saying is C Lydian must be the key of G because that is the only key where you could play C Lydian?

Hopefully that makes sense to you and that i am almost there in understanding Modes more.

Thanks very much.

[nickt]

Think i'v got it now, but one thing, would the CMaj7 chord have a c# due to the new G Major scale or a Natural c if i was just changing the Tonic note of the G Major Scale?

Thanks.

[healdie]

1. The confusion come form technically have two true tonal centres theres the "actual" tonal centre the relative Ionian Mode or the treated Modal centre so to continue to use the C Lydian/G Major example if you are writing in C Lydian you are still technically in G Major but I prefer not to think of it this way, I would treat C Lydian as your tonal centre and forget all about G Major, so I would think completely in C with an Augmented 4th (F#) and then I would build my chords of the degrees in the same way as usual and so on the only consideration I would give to G Major is to make sure that I am not inadvertently pulling the tonality back towards it, so if I used D7, followed by a G Major even though those chords exist in C Lydian it will sound G Major

2. If you used the Lydian mode starting on a G you would have modulated to D Major as G is the fourth tone in G, to avoid confusion think of the formulas for each mode and try to apply them the same way you did the Major scale when you first learnt it, I presume you learnt the formula and then a couple of classical progressions and melodic ideas that were characteristically Major as opposed to Minor and then experimented and found it out that way, you essentially need to do the same with the modes the key is to stop thinking of them as the Major scale on another note and treat them as different types of Scales themselves

but yes as you said in point 3 C Lydian is G Major, in the Key of C the fourth note is F so to use this as your tonic you would be in F Lydian

and the last post no you would not have a C# in C Lydian remember that you are raising the fourth of the Modal key not the parent key, so C is the Fourth note in G Major which is the Lydian mode and we know the Lydian mode is the Major scale with an augmented 4th and the fourth of C is F so C Lydian would have an F# (like G Major does) so remember that the modes share the same key signature with the parent key, so all of the modes of G have an F# whether it is G Ionian or C Lydian or B Phrygian they all have the same key signature as the Parent so like wise the Modes of A Major all have 3#s and they are the same 3 sharps of A Major

The trick is separating in your mind the distinction between the two approaches to learning the modes from the Major scale on a different note and treating them as keys of their own as even though it is the same theory both have different applications the former is easier to find the notes of the modes if I know that the Phrygian mode is the 3rd Major mode and I want to write in F Phrygian then I know I have the same notes as Db Major and I find the Latter more helpful in actually writing in those modes once I know the notes as then I am not getting tangled up in the distinction between the mode and the "Parent"

hope this helps a bit further modes can take a bit of time to get you head around (it took me about a years worth of study before I was really fluent in them) but once you've cracked them you can then apply it to any type of scale the Melodic Minor has some mighty fine modes

[healdie]

Sorry if this confuses you a bit further but I thought I'd also just explain exactly how I use the modes, the way I use them is totally dependant almost on character/colour rather than any other criteria so a general rough guide would be

Ionian = Major (needs no introduction)
Dorian = Minor Key but with a Major lift thanks the Major6)
Phrygian = Quite a dark Minor key with a middle eastern feel to it thanks to the Flat 9/Minor2nd (You could make it even more middle eastern with a Major 3rd making it the Phrygian Dominant Mode the 5th mode of the Harmonic Minor)
Lydian = Major but with quite a dreamy/surreal feel to it
Mixolydian = Major but not too happy because of the dominant 7th (very common in blues/country and classic rock music)
Aoelian = Minor
Locrian = Very Dark key and is quite hard to write melodies in so it is usually used mode for riffs and Ostinatos rahter than melodies or Chord progressions

Also the way I may use the modes when improvising is I will treat each chord change as a different mode so if I had the chord progression C, F, G, Am I could change modes for each chord change as long as the Mode corresponded with the basic triad, so I could play C Major over the whole progression (but thats a little dull ) I could Play

C Lydian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Phrygian or
C Major, F Major, G Lydian A Aoelian or any other combination that works with the chords

see? because the altered notes in those keys does not effect the triad (In C Major and C Lydian the notes of the core triad are un-altered so I can interchange them) then I can use it there (but note you will have to consider any alterations to the chord if there any but here I have only written simple triads) so technically I am changing key on every chord change and it can make the improvisation really exciting alot of Jazz is based around this principle of treating every chord change as a key change which is way to the untrained ear a lot of Jazz may sound random and it is because they are changing key so rapidly

Hope I havn't confused you further but its just food for thought and yet another way of playing modally

[nickt]

Hey Healdie, thanks for the time and effort you have put into this helping me, many thanks. I think i have nailed it now, guess i was just getting confused with what scale i should be using.

Just to clarify, if i wanted to be in C Dorian i would be in the Key of B flat and the scale that i would be using would be the C Minor scale with a Major 6th, so obviously my scale would start on the root note C. (So i should never think of it as a B flat scale with a Major 6th starting on B flat).

So yes i would use the same Key Signature as B flat but the scale is actually a C Dorian which starts on the Root note C and nothing to do with a B flat scale apart from it shares it's Key Signature, because yes the C Minor scale has a B flat and an E flat in it.

Phew, thanks for your patience Healdie let me know if i'v got this one sussed 

[healdie]

Yup it sounds like you've got that one sussed that sounds totally correct C Dorian does = Bb Major

[nickt]

Thanks Healdie