Liszt: Sonetto del Petrarca

[pianoman53]

This was part of a masterclass/festival I attended. We had been given key-cards, to get access everywhere, but mine had stopped working. So I had been running up and down for the 20 minutes before I finally made it to the room... 2 minutes late, so no time in trying the instrument.

Any suggestions are welcome!

[pianoman53]

Really, 7 downloads and not a single comment? I mean, loads of people here complains about all the advertisers and stupid posts about new notation system, yet you keep commenting on them! Here's a piece of advice: Don't comment! Just press the freaking "report", and then leave it there. And while you're at it, maybe you could comment on the non stupid/advertising-stuff, like this one ^^

[pbryld]

Really, 7 downloads and not a single comment?

Perhaps that is a good sign?

I thought it was well played.

[pianoman53]

Perhaps that is a good sign?

I thought it was well played.

Good sign or not, it's boring that no one comments...

But thanks

[rachfan]

Hi pianoman,

EDIT: I converted everything to measure number.

I enjoyed hearing your rendition of the Sonetto 104.  You bring out the romantic exuberance of youth with it's changing moods.  Also there are parts of the piece where you play in a declamatory way where appropriate, which is the way I played it too--it's very effective and when followed by nostalgia, the contrast is vivid.  I would just make a few suggestions for performance, as you're looking for some feedback.

Not counting the partial opening measure, page 1, measure 5: In the descending small notes short cadenza, I would not pause after the E in the last triplet.  The voice leading is directly from the E to the G# in the following measure 6. I'd maintain motion there.  Also in the cadenza notice that your have the rit. along with a crescendo, thus the combined effect is really allargando.  I think you could make more of it there for greater drama.

Measure 20:  In the third beat you play the first two 8th notes staccato but I don't see any marking in the score to justify it.  (I'm looking at Joseffy's edition.  He worked very closely with Liszt on the edition of "Italie" and Liszt was a stickler for detail when reviewing publishing proofs.)  I would aim more for a nonlegato effect there.

Measure 31: Except for the ornament, this music is very similar to the that in measure 29.  You might want to use a quieter echo there and then bring the volume back up in the following crescendo in the first measure of the next line.

Measure 35: When you execute the short cadenza there, you're carrying the pedal into the rinforzando notes at the end of that measure.  Too many overtones causing a big blur there! Pedal for clarity by lifting it at the end of the cadenza after the last E in the RH.

Measure 37: Recall that this piece was originally written as a a song for tenor.  Thus, this piano transcription of Liszt is written in the bel canto style to emulate the voice. Try playing the RH arpeggiated chord, then take a breath to "sing" the top melodic line with the surging crescendo.  That breath will make it all more vivid in your mind, thus will transfer to the execution, and will be even more exciting for the listener.

Measures 59 and 61: Be sure you're using the tre corda pedal only there--no damper pedal at all, not even light pedal.  On the six 16th notes played against the three 8th notes, be sure the match-up is precise.  To me it sounds a bit tenuous in there.

Measure 62: Nice push on the descending octave passage.  Sounds great!

Measure 64: More perdendo, perdendo--dying away.  Combined with the ritardando the effect is actually callando.

Measure 65 through 67: OK, I like your accentato assai.  That's exactly how I play it too.  I think that the character in this music is still deeply in love, but he's trying to exhibit in this mood a devil could care less attitude.  He's pretending to himself that the relationship is over and no longer matters.  In the third measure, I like how you back off of that attitude, as his mind switches to a more nostalgic and tender feeling.  The relationship is not over!  What you can do there is visualize a comma just before the last F## octave at the end of measure 66--pause there before making that transition to a contrary mood. Right now, it's a bit too abrupt I think.    

Measure 77: First, in the Joseffy edition there is in the RH a C# at the top of the second beat, making it a chord, not double notes.  So the C# is what gets voiced there.  Did you play it but it didn't sound, or does your edition omit it? Also, there's no fermata over the fourth beat, and the voice leading for the top of the double note F# leads directly to the G# at the top of the chord in measure 78.  I wouldn't stop, but would keep going to complete the musical thought rather than severing it.

Measure 79: I believe the pedaling would be more natural, effective and unobtrusive if you were to depress the damper pedal to catch the low note of the broken chords, keep it down to take the follow G which is consonant, lift the pedal at the end of the measure and take the very last measure, 80, in its own pedal.

Overall, I think you succeed well in creating the atmosphere of the sonnet and contrasting the antithical moods.  It's a convincing rendition.  In the romantic piano literature I believe that programs are important and guide the expression while comporting with the score.  You do very well with all of that in my opinion. I hope my thoughts are helpful.

Thanks for posting your recording.

David

[emma84]

What an answer! Bravo, David!

[rachfan]

Hi emma,

I'm glad you found my response of some value.  Sometimes in reading posts in threads, I've picked up good ideas there.  That's one of the benefits of posting at Piano Street.

David

[pianoman53]

Thank you for the reply, Rachfan (emma, mind commenting on the piece as well? )

I figured we don't have the same edition, cause your pages ends on different spots than mine, if you understand? But I've tried to figure out some of them anyway.

1) The slur ends, and there is a quite obvious "new part"-mark. I know most people don't think that way, but I do. I probably can't explain it in a story-like way, but that's how I see the score.
2) I assume you mean right before the theme comes the second time? I know, they got a bit too short. Me and the pedal on that piano didn't really like each other, and I didn't have time to try it before the lesson.
3) That one, I don't understand where you are. I'll have a closer look later.
4) I think I use quite a bit of pedal, but I'm aware of that it's a bit too much right now.
...
I can't comment on everything at once, cause I have to practise But I'll be back and commenting on the rest. Thank you!

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

Sorry I can't give a helpful comment like Rachfan...
But I really, really loved your performance, and wanted to say thanks for posting it here:)

[pianoman53]

Sorry I can't give a helpful comment like Rachfan...
But I really, really loved your performance, and wanted to say thanks for posting it here:)

And that's just as nice as to get good comments. I mean, most people in an audience wont be able to comment on anything we play, but it would be really boring if none of them came up and said thanks just "because they didn't have any comments". So thank you very much!

[rachfan]

Hi pianoman,

In my earlier comments, I have since converted the finder aids to measure numbers.  That will be more specific for you given the two different editions.  Hopefully that will help. 

[scottmcc]

my internet connection has been hit/miss lately, especially for listening to streaming music.  for some reason it really didn't want me to listen to this performance beyond a few chunky seconds at a time.  so I can't offer too much, but I wish I could!

anyway, it seems like lately the audition room has not lacked for good recordings, but has lacked for commentary on them.  this is saddening.  here qualified artists offer up essentially a free concert, and nobody has the time or effort to even drop a "thanks for posting that was nice" or other similar quick note?

anyway, I will try to actually listen to this piece later today so that I can make a meaningful comment, although I'm not nearly familiar enough with it to give it the same detailed treatment that rachfan did.

[rachfan]

Hi scottmc,

I think I know your player problem.  You need to go to Adobe and download the latest version of Flash Player.  Once you have it, be sure to install it, as it does not self install.  That should resolve the stop/go/stuttering and the play cursor outrunning the download bar.  It always works for me.  I hope this helps.

David

[pianoman53]

Or maybe it's just a random bug? There has been a few lately on the website (which, I guess, haven't been here forever?), with problems posting replies and stuff like that.

But thank you anyways! Looking forward to your comment!

[scottmcc]

ok, I got it to work.  I just moved to japan so I'm blaming any internet issues on that.  David, I use chrome on my laptop and safari on my ipad so either way I can't update my flash player (it's integrated into chrome and not compatible with apple).

anyway, on to the music.  overall, great performance, very enjoyable.  your recording cuts off the first second or so of the music, which is distracting. alas.  the first few bars feel a bit hurried to me, but I think it's because you were a bit hurried, running late as you mentioned.  the slower, lyrical sections of the piece sometimes felt a bit hesitant, or a bit nervous. again, I think this reflects your emotional state at the time of the recording more than your innate skills or your musical vision of the piece.  you actually seemed most at ease during the trickier, faster sections, where it seemed like you relaxed and just let your fingers fly.

anyway, I think if you were to record this on your instrument, after an appropriate warm-up, you'd be much more comfortable and it would carry through to the performance.  of course, when it comes to giving concerts you will be in uncomfortable situations (even if you aren't running late), so I guess you have to get used to it.

don't take these criticisms too harshly.  I think that overall you did a marvelous job, and you've clearly studied very hard to get to this point with a pretty difficult piece of music.

I look forward to future recordings from you.

[pianoman53]

I don't know if you have some scores that I don't, but I don't cut the first few secs...

The introduction: It's written agitato, and the best way, I think, is to be a bit stressed. But I'm always in for change and new ideas, so if you know a better way, feel free to fell

The lyrical section should not be too calm, I think. The poem is about great love (Who could guess?) and a fight within one self:

"WARFARE I cannot wage, yet know not peace;
I fear, I hope, I burn, I freeze again;
Mount to the skies, then bow to earth my face;
Grasp the whole world, yet nothing can obtain.
Pris'ner of one who deigns not to detain,
I am not made his own, nor giv'n release.
Love slays me not, nor yet will he unchain;
Nor life allot, nor stop my harm's increase"

To play this in a very calm way isn't to trust the poem, I think. I mean, some pieces are meant to be played "perfectly", with perfect rubato and.. just nice... I don't think this is one of those pieces.

But I, ofc, respect your opinion even if I don't agree

Thank you for your comment!

[scottmcc]

again, it could certainly be my internet connection, but it definitely cuts off at least the first few notes (and yes, I know the piece starts out with a bit of a bang).  you might try recording at least 1-2 seconds of silence before you start playing, just don't do too much silence or else people will think it's not working.

I agree that a certain degree of tension is required, and a certain level of drama.  but I guess we shall respectfully disagree about exactly how and where to present it, which is the joy of interpretation, right? 

anyway, thanks again for presenting this for us.

[pianoman53]

again, it could certainly be my internet connection, but it definitely cuts off at least the first few notes (and yes, I know the piece starts out with a bit of a bang).

No, I swear to you, I didn't cut anything. It might be that it starts right away, but I've checked 3 times already, and I don't cut.

Thanks again for your comment.

[pianoman53]

Rachfan:

... continue from last comment I wrote you...

Bar 31: I'm not a big fan of echos, but I can see your point. Though, I think it would be rather... cheezy and a "look, I'm doing something"-moment. Just a bit too much to add an echo, probably... But I, as I said, see what you're going at.

Bar 35: And I also sort of miss the chord, so not many right there Though, I kind of like it with all the pedal. It's kind of an outburst, from the crescendo. If it gets too clera, it's kind of virtoso just for the sake of it. Do you understand?

Bar 37: You're right. It needs a bit more tone, and maybe also, as you said, an inch of air between the chord and the melody.

Bar 58-60: Yupp, I know. I was aware of that I wasn't completely right on that spot. So I can't do anything but agree with that.

62: Thank you

63: You're right... But it's difficult. I don't want it to be overdone, but I still want to hear the perendo. I'll look at that later, and try to find out how to do it as I want to...

67: I agree. It's one of those places where I have quite a bit of adrenaline in my body, and just forget some things, cause I want see it in the same way...

77: Yupp, I just missed the c#. Stupid, cause it's not difficult, but I still missed it...
I know there is no fermata, but he did write 'no pedal' and also a non-legato slur, ending at the 4th beat. I see this whole last part as just a memory. And this place is where the old man leans back in his chair, wait a bit, and then tells the last part of the story. Like "It was so.... wonderful". I wouldn't tell a story, and end with "It was so wonderful" without the pause.

78-79: You may be right... But he didn't right an "up pedal"-mark. So we can't really say what he wanted. You idea is obviously good, and I've thought about it a few times.


I've just started to discover this piece, so I'll probably change quite many things on the way.

Again, thank you all for commenting!

[lelle]

Hi pianoman! I was just thinking about making a recording of the Sonetto 104 del Petrarca myself and putting it up here but it seems like I'll have to increase my standards quite a bit now that we have such a well played one already.. SO here's some comments in the meantime Just take this as suggestions based on my own thoughts when it comes to this piece and not as absolute facts that I think you HAVE to do this way

In my edition I have a crescendo from the third "real" bar in the Agitato assai to the beginning of the Adagio. If you do as well, then I think there could be a point in building up and aiming for the top C sharp in the first Adagio bar as the "climax" of the big line here. I think the diminuendo/ritardando you are doing right now suits the music but I'm not sure if it's in the spirit of what is written.

I think the molto espressivo recitative comes across as a bit "nervous" currently. As you argue, the poem is about a fight within oneself, about different extremes of emotion appearing at the same time (unrequited love and the emotional consequences?) as I read it in the translation I have. However, I think the basic character of the lyrical sections can be read from the "official" Adagio marking in the beginning of the section. Here it's not so much about a certain tempo as the character of an Adagio; calm, stately, at ease. The piece contains plenty of outbursts for sure which goes with the character of the poem, but it keeps returning to these almost languid sections like the opening recitativo, the "cantabile con passione senza slentare", the "ritenuto a piacare", the final ending section after the "accentuato assai". As I read the poem the person feels almost drained because of these emotional extremes he is experiencing and I think that goes with the character of these sections (you can't go around and be all fiery and passionate all the time, sometimes it gets enough and you wonder about what is the point of it all). Like I already said, the piece has plenty of outbursts but to make the different extremes conveyed in the poem felt I don't think the piece should be nervous and agitated all the time.

One of the things I'm most interested in developing in my own play at the moment is cantabile and a bigger sense of a musical line (you know, the thing that Alfred Cortot does so amazingly well) so though I'm not there yet myself I've started to listen for it a lot when hearing other people's recordings. In measure 32 I think you should watch those thirds so they feel connected with the surronding melody in one line. Right now this measure came across a bit like each melody note is stated on it's own, like portato rather than legato (a rather tired and overused comparison: the melody sounds like it consists of s i n g l e  l e t t e r s rather than of one sentence).

I disagree with rachfan about measure 35, I think you should keep the pedal exactly like you do it now; in my score, the pedal is marked that way, maybe start slowly lifting it while playing the sixths, but don't change it. To me, it sounds like it was intended to be played that way. Very nice "molto appassionato" by the way!

Measure 49 I think has a bit of the same issue as measure 32. Sure, in my edition each octave has a staccato under the tie, but I think it becomes a bit too pronounced here to the point that each right hand octave almost stops the flow of the music.

I like your characterization of the accentuato assai a lot, but I'm wondering a bit about the ties in your edition here. I think sometimes there seems to appear breaks in the melodic line that sticks out a bit and aren't indicated by the ties that I have. For example in the second bar of the accentuato assai there is an octave triplet consisting of c, e and f# leading to a dotted quarter note g#. Between the e and f# you make a perceptible pause and then play the f# and g# like they were part of a new phrase. I'm not sure if I like that execution, I read (and hear) these notes like they all belong to the same melodic line.

Seems like I've written a sh!tl0aD^ of text now so I hope you'll have time to read at least some of it and hopefully get some feedback from it

[rachfan]

You're welcome, pianoman.  I'm glad I could point out some things of interest to you.  I'm OK with your points of disagreement because you can offer thoughtful and defensible reasons for your decisions.  Recall that in defending our interpretations, you have the following factors to consider: the stylistic period; commentary by the composer, his students, and contemporaneous concert goers; prevailing performance practices; precedents in the score; music theory; and principles of pianism.  (I probably left something out.)  Anyway, any choice we make should be justifiable.

This has been an interesting discussion!

David

[lostinidlewonder]

Great detailed comments by Rachfan.

Overall you met the technical demands of this challenging piece easily. There is musical work required which I am sure in time you will solve. One major issue I had with this recording is that there needs to be more lightness and more caressing piano touches. Things just sounded a little too heavy, a tier too high, in cases it caused your melodic lines to become adversely effected and forte passages became too noisy/unclear, the mic of course amplifies this furthermore.

[pianoman53]

Lost: Ye, the piano was very heavy, and loud, and the room was quite small, for that big instrument. That should do everything, but that's a part of the sound.

Lelle: Oh, come on! Even if my recording might be better, it wont be better in every single way. And if it is, we'll still learn a lot from each others recordings!

[rachfan]

Hi pianoman,

I agree with the possibility lelle raises on pedaling the last measures.  So yes, if with a half-pedal release you can clear enough overtones from the C naturals, then the single pedal might well work right through to the end.  I'm  not near the piano now, but I believe it's worakable.

David

[pianoman53]

And I've tried a few times. And with a pedal that I'm comfortable with (not those stupid Yamaha-pedals, that only has either full or no pedal) one pedal works well...

[emill]

anyway, it seems like lately the audition room has not lacked for good recordings, but has lacked for commentary on them.  this is saddening.  here qualified artists offer up essentially a free concert, and nobody has the time or effort to even drop a "thanks for posting that was nice" or other similar quick note?

How true!!!  If I remember right it was David (rachfan) who told me once in a PM that it was the "responsibility" of the older generation to teach the younger ones. And yes, some of the "older ones" here do that .... unfortunately for a myriad of reasons some have left, like Birba ... what a loss ! ! ! at least to my son Enzo for he really took time out to teach. 

To make things worse, a good number of posts get hijacked by interminable discussions which does not help in anyway the learning experience of the poster but bloats the EGOS of the discussants. In my mind, they are not better than plain provocateurs.    CIVILITY on many occasions is thrown out of the window. I also suspect that some feel that it will demean their reputation to post/comment on some lowly member's audition of simple pieces.  Oh well ... it is really sad.

I hope pianoman53 will forgive me as I can not post any comment intelligently as I am not a pianist. However, personally I feel that the pianist is quite expressive in the manner he plays this piece by Liszt.  THANKS.