Neglecting Mozart

[poiuytrewq11zc]

Everything Chopin and Beethoven wrote for the piano is being played and programmed today. Isn't it kind of funny how so many pianists have such enormous respect for Mozart, yet only play a limited amount of his compositions? Discuss.

[liszt_ani_rach]

Mozart's music was very influential and also beautiful, but many consider that his best works are only for Orchestra and Opera. His piano music was good, but if you compare his style of piano composition with that of Beethoven and Chopin, he is more or less degraded. I love Mozart's sonatas and rondos, but Beethoven's sonatas and Chopin's Waltzes overtake Mozart's pieces. Mozart is very much respected for his great work in composing 41 great symphonies. His overtures and operas are also great. In fact, I bought a book of Piano transcriptions of Mozart's 3 Operas. So, what I'm trying to say is, Mozart's music is respected, but only in the field of Orchestration. Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, etc were born to make Piano Music. (Beethoven is an exception, everything he composed was great).


Currently working on:
Scarlatti Sonata k 27
Chopin Ballade no 1
Liszt La Chasse

[werq34ac]

Well keep in mind, Mozart is freakishly difficult to play well. I think most pianists want to avoid playing Mozart because it's difficult to pull off. A pianist's nightmare is a Mozart 2nd movement O.O so scary....

Mozart's music was very influential and also beautiful, but many consider that his best works are only for Orchestra and Opera. His piano music was good, but if you compare his style of piano composition with that of Beethoven and Chopin, he is more or less degraded. I love Mozart's sonatas and rondos, but Beethoven's sonatas and Chopin's Waltzes overtake Mozart's pieces. Mozart is very much respected for his great work in composing 41 great symphonies. His overtures and operas are also great. In fact, I bought a book of Piano transcriptions of Mozart's 3 Operas. So, what I'm trying to say is, Mozart's music is respected, but only in the field of Orchestration. Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, etc were born to make Piano Music. (Beethoven is an exception, everything he composed was great).

And I don't think his best works are only for orchestra and opera. His sonata in d major for 2 pianos is my all time favorite mozart piece. Mozart's piano works are very much respected.

[fftransform]

Well keep in mind, Mozart is freakishly difficult to play well.

Certainly not the case, compared to most other concert repertoire.  Schubert, on the other hand . . .

[werq34ac]

Certainly not the case, compared to most other concert repertoire.  Schubert, on the other hand . . .

I agree that Schubert is difficult to play well, but you have to admit, something about the simplicity of Mozart, makes him hard to pull off in a performance. It's much harder than playing Chopin or Liszt well.

[fftransform]

I agree that Schubert is difficult to play well, but you have to admit, something about the simplicity of Mozart, makes him hard to pull off in a performance. It's much harder than playing Chopin or Liszt well.

No, I do not have to admit anything of the sort.  Four year old Korean girls play Mozart well.  The same cannot be said of Liszt.  There's nothing particularly simple about his music; some of his pieces, such as K. 280, K. 573 and K. 576, contain fairly tricky passages, from a technical perspective.  Somehow, you are confusing a lack of density, dissonance and romantic gestaltation with "simplicity."  The adage that Mozart is so difficult to play is borne of inferior pianists' egos: it is something for them to tell themselves in order to explain away their own difficulties with the work.  It's so ass-backwards and counter-intuitive I think that others merely say it to be defiant, or sound as if they're oh-so-wise.  When, in reality, they're anything but.

[werq34ac]

No, I do not have to admit anything of the sort.  Four year old Korean girls play Mozart well.  The same cannot be said of Liszt.  There's nothing particularly simple about his music; some of his pieces, such as K. 280, K. 573 and K. 576, contain fairly tricky passages, from a technical perspective.  Somehow, you are confusing a lack of density, dissonance and romantic gestaltation with "simplicity."  The adage that Mozart is so difficult to play is borne of inferior pianists' egos: it is something for them to tell themselves in order to explain away their own difficulties with the work.  It's so ass-backwards and counter-intuitive I think that others merely say it to be defiant, or sound as if they're oh-so-wise.  When, in reality, they're anything but.

4 year old koreans DO NOT play Mozart well. I mean come on, college students play Liszt well, but they do not play Mozart well. Professionals play Liszt, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Ravel, Debussy, etc. well, but they seem to avoid Mozart. Unless you have a reputation for a brilliant Mozart, you do not have much room to talk

[richterfan1]

Mozart's Piano is GREAT, Classicism is 1, Romantissm is other, U CANT COMPARE Haydn/Mozart with Chopin/Liszt/ and u cant call Mozart's piano bad! or similar, btw, Mozart have some really technically demanding piano pieces

[werq34ac]

Actually, technically, Liszt is far more difficult than Mozart hahaha..

[richterfan1]

Actually, technically, Liszt is far more difficult than Mozart hahaha..

U CANT COMPARE LISZT AND MOZART!!!!

[richterfan1]

yet only play a limited amount of his compositions? Discuss.

are u sure?

[richterfan1]

CHOPIN was infulented by Mozart too, ofc, i love Chopin hes my no.1

[scott13]

Actually Mozart is indeed difficult to play well because it requires exceptional touch. There is no pedal, not very frequent legato sections, even in 2nd movements from Sonatas.

Mozart needs to be played on the staccato side if anything and to do this cleanly and maintain the grace and elegance of his works is not easy at all.

And you can compare composers on a difficulty level. Liszt has huge leaps, thundering octaves, fast folk melodies, these are traits of Liszt, Mozart normally has running melodic lines normally single notes, very rarely in 3rds even. Some octaves but never thundering over the keyboard. Yet he does have a unique grace that must be present to play his works well, and that is why many pianists stay away from his music. Also the fact there is no pedal at all turns many players off.

[scott13]

Perhaps Chopin Op 10 # 3 ? Beautiful melody and although in a major key there is a huge sadness to the work as well, this piece is also very nationalist in nature, could fit well with the image of the nation coming together in this time of tragedy?

Then as has been said finish with something by Grieg?

 Beethoven also wrote some beautiful slow movements such as Op 10 # 3 2nd Movement, or the original 2nd movement to Waldstein Sonata Op 53, Even the slow movement from Op 106 is beautiful and filled with sorrow, as is Op 31 # 2 2nd Movement.

Actually just a thought to end with the finale of Op 53 by Beethoven. It has a unique timeless feel to it which could fit well with your aim to pay respect to those who died? But never under estimate the effect Op 10 # 3 by Chopin can have on an audience especially after a moving speech and maybe accompany the playing with visual stills or something?

[richterfan1]

Actually Mozart is indeed difficult to play well because it requires exceptional touch. There is no pedal, not very frequent legato sections, even in 2nd movements from Sonatas.

Mozart needs to be played on the staccato side if anything and to do this cleanly and maintain the grace and elegance of his works is not easy at all.

And you can compare composers on a difficulty level. Liszt has huge leaps, thundering octaves, fast folk melodies, these are traits of Liszt, Mozart normally has running melodic lines normally single notes, very rarely in 3rds even. Some octaves but never thundering over the keyboard. Yet he does have a unique grace that must be present to play his works well, and that is why many pianists stay away from his music. Also the fact there is no pedal at all turns many players off.

i agree with u, Mozarts piano is elegant and delicate, and ofc u can use the pedal, i did hes k333 and some parts are wonderful with pedal, btw, in hes Sonatas, Fantasies and Variations there are many tricky passages, complicated fingering, and it isnt easy at all, u need to have perfect feeling and delicate touch for Mozart, listen to Mitsuko Uchida etc, her Mozarts are perfect, and i dont think Mozart is neglected, many old pianists played a lot of Mozart, today same, Barenboim, Uchida, Brendel...

[keyboardclass]

I go with the 'freakishly difficult to play well' line.

[pianoman53]

I go with the 'freakishly difficult to play well' line.

I wouldn't call it 'freakishly difficult to play well', actually, but more 'freakishly easy to screw up'. You don't have to miss many notes to turn a good performance into a bad one.

[richterfan1]

You don't have to miss many notes to turn a good performance into a bad one.

indeed

[fftransform]

4 year old koreans DO NOT play Mozart well. I mean come on, college students play Liszt well, but they do not play Mozart well. Professionals play Liszt, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Ravel, Debussy, etc. well, but they seem to avoid Mozart. Unless you have a reputation for a brilliant Mozart, you do not have much room to talk

This conversation is stupid and you are stupid.  Your arguments are stupid.  There is no point in calling them anything other than stupid.  To call them something else would be circumventing the very direct fact that your statements are stupid.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.  You say that four year old Korean girls do not play Mozart "well"; you do not back this statement up or provide evidence, whether empirical or logical, nor do you define "well"; the semantic intent in my statement is clear, whereas in yours it is completely hazy.  You also take this statement to be literal, apparently, which it clearly is not; taking it in such a way and then combating it does nothing to help your case.  It merely shows your pettiness and inability to provide a cohesive rebuttal.  College students play Liszt well?  Which pieces?  Which students?  Which colleges?  All of them?  They play Liszt well but Mozart poorly?  What does poorly mean?  Professional pianists play Scriabin, Ravel and Debussy "well" unilaterally?  Seriously?  Debussy?  You believe that Debussy requires less articulation, touch and timbral consideration than Mozart?  You are stupid.  Do you have a "reputation for brilliant" Mozart, yourself?  What about all of the composers that you have claimed everybody plays well?  You have a reputation for brilliant Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninov, Ravel, Debussy and Scriabin?  No, you don't, yet you don't ascribe such requirements for one's opinion to be valid to yourself.  By your own piss-poor "logic" your statements are refuted.

Why don't you try to actually explain how/why Mozart's music is difficult.  But more importantly, you should just delete this whole thread, because your arguments are presupposed on a faulty base that Mozart is unpopular.  The statement that pianists "avoid" Mozart is hilariously bizarre and inaccurate.

Maybe you should be less stupid.

[pianoman53]

Geeez! You can't compare them! What about those people who've played 10 piano sonatas and 5 mozart concertos? Add a few Haydn sonatas, and a *hit-load lot of Bach.
...
They have also played the One chopin-piece.
...
I am quite sure they would think it's easier to play Mozart than Chopin.


You can't just say "this is easier, and this is harder".
It's about background, hands, musical taste, your teacher's musical taste...

And please, don't go to the "Mozart is easy for kids, and difficult for adults". Have you heard a kid play Mozart? It's not good, just because they are kids.

I, for example, thinks Mozart and Haydn is way easier than Liszt.
Liszt doesn't fit my hands very well, and not many of his pieces "speaks" to me, while Mozart do. I love mozart, and listen to his music every day. I listen to Liszt when I have to pick a new piece...

And I can't even say something like that. It's not like he wrote in one single way. He wrote some pieces with 10000000 notes per bar, with freakishly virtuoso parts. And he also wrote pieces completely without any trace of virtuoso parts.

And why do I have to play Scriabin well? I am a college student, and haven't touched a scriabin piece in my life. I have barely listened to him! And yet, I would be a great interpreter of his music?

[cmg]

Why don't you try to actually explain how/why Mozart's music is difficult.  But more importantly, you should just delete this whole thread, because your arguments are presupposed on a faulty base that Mozart is unpopular.  The statement that pianists "avoid" Mozart is hilariously bizarre and inaccurate.

Maybe you should be less stupid.

Mozart's writing for the piano is very exposed, i.e. textures are thin and you just feel naked playing it.  One slip and you sound like a moron.  But Haydn, Scarlatti and Beethoven can be just as exposed, but, somehow, it doesn't feel so perilous to play!  I mean the Emperor Concerto is just one big (inspired!) Etude in E-flat, with every standard technical trick in the book exploited.  But it doesn't feel as scary as Mozart.  Maybe it's because Mozart is exposed, sparsely harmonized, and a very hard sell to audiences due to his soporific effect on the uninitiated.  Overtly refined and subtle?  Maybe.  Or just as often, in the predominantly tedious piano sonatas, verging on the uninspired?  Many great pianists detest playing his works and find him overrated.  The operas, symphonies, some chamber works, yes, as great as music gets.  Most of the concerti, as well.  But the sonatas, etc.?  Second-rate Mozart for the most part and way too scary to play, so why the hell bother?  We have a vast repertoire out there as pianists.  Mozart is never my first choice in the classical period.  Not worth the excessive trouble.
  

[pianoman53]

Mozart's writing for the piano is very exposed, i.e. textures are thin and you just feel naked playing it.

I don't.

But Haydn, Scarlatti and Beethoven can be just as exposed, but, somehow, it doesn't feel so perilous to play!

I do.  

I mean the Emperor Concerto is just one big (inspired!) Etude in E-flat, with every standard technical trick in the book exploited.

No, it's not.  

But it doesn't feel as scary as Mozart.

Yes it does.  

Maybe it's because Mozart is exposed, sparsely harmonized, and a very hard sell to audiences due to his soporific effect on the uninitiated.

No, it's not.  

Overtly refined and subtle?  Maybe.  Or just as often, in the predominantly tedious piano sonatas, verging on the uninspired?  Many great pianists detest playing his works and find him overrated.

Like who?

 
The operas, symphonies, some chamber works, yes, as great as music gets.  Most of the concerti, as well.  But the sonatas, etc.?  Second-rate Mozart for the most part and way too scary to play, so why the hell bother?

Uhm... That's just stupid.  

We have a vast repertoire out there as pianists.  Mozart is never my first choice in the classical period.  Not worth the excessive trouble.

So, therefore, everybody should think like that, only because you suck at playing Mozart?

Gah! I hate when people say "music is like this, and that's it" Who are you to decide?!
I've loved Mozart almost all my life, and you come here and say that it's not as good as other music?

[bachbrahmsschubert]

No, I do not have to admit anything of the sort.  Four year old Korean girls play Mozart well.  The same cannot be said of Liszt.

This is all I need to read from you to know you're a self-righteous moron. Are you even a pianist? Ridiculous. Can you take a wild guess as to why Liszt is not performed by a very young audience? Comparing composition styles between Mozart and Liszt...laughable.

Mozart, from my perspective, is seldomly played because of more attractive alternatives. A "great" interpreter of a composer is entirely subjective, but in my opinion, I can count the "great" interpreters of Mozart's music on one hand. Can the same be said of the powerhouse 19th century composers? I don't think it has anything to do with what is difficult and what is easy, and everything to do with personal taste.

Best wishes,

[werq34ac]

I'm saying is, give Mozart a little respect. He wrote some wonderful piano repertoire; the sonata for 2 pianos is one of my favorite pieces of all time. You can't just discredit his entire piano repertoire based on a few of his sonatas, and whether you like them or not is a personal taste in the first place.

As for your argument that I am stupid for saying 4 year olds don't play Mozart well, it has much more merit than your remark that they do play well. Its like saying 4 year olds play any legitimate concert repertoire such as Bach, Haydn, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Schumann, Brahms, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Ravel, Prokofiev, Scriabin, shall I go on?) well. As for "Korean" 4 year olds, why not chinese or japanese or even white 4 year olds? I don't understand why you singled out Koreans as playing Mozart well.

As for evidence, what evidence do I need? The lack of 4 year olds who play Mozart well is quite good evidence. I will take back what I said if you can find me a 4 year old KOREAN girl who can play Mozart well.

And your rant about calling me stupid was a bit unnecessary. I got the point already with the first sentence.

I will take back what I said that most pianists avoid Mozart, and college kids (I mean conservatory students) don't play Mozart well, concert pianists avoiding Mozart, etc. They don't, but that's because they have the experience needed to play this difficult repertoire. Yes I know, Debussy requires just as much control and maturity as Mozart, as does Ravel. I was exaggerating to fit my words.

But you seem to have the assumption that Mozart is easy to play. It is very exposed, there's no pedal to hide behind, no thick textures to cover up mistakes. If Mozart could be summed up in one word, it would be perfection. His pieces require a perfection (using this word loosely, since nothing in the world is perfect) as a minimum for the standard in which is acceptable to perform.

And you haven't explained how Mozart is any less difficult than Liszt. You talk as if you are above playing Mozart which in my opinion anyone who thinks they are above playing Mozart is either ignorant or in denial.

[cmg]

So, therefore, everybody should think like that, only because you suck at playing Mozart?

Gah! I hate when people say "music is like this, and that's it" Who are you to decide?!
I've loved Mozart almost all my life, and you come here and say that it's not as good as other music?

LOL!  You're either a troll or an ***.  Probably both. 

[myr]

 You say that four year old Korean girls do not play Mozart "well"; you do not back this statement up or provide evidence

There’s a popular quote by Artur Schnabel where he says that Mozart’s “too easy for children, too difficult for adults”. Not exactly empirical, nor evidential, but it’s a trustworthy reference at least.

[pianoman53]

There’s a popular quote by Artur Schnabel where he says that Mozart’s “too easy for children, too difficult for adults”. Not exactly empirical, nor evidential, but it’s a trustworthy reference at least.

Have you heard children play Mozart? It's not very good...

[pianoman53]

LOL!  You're either a troll or an ***.  Probably both. 

Sorry, oh great one. Please tell me something more about me! And maybe you can say that half of Beethovens sonatas actually aren't that good.

[fleetfingers]

Have you heard children play Mozart? It's not very good...

That's the point of the quote.  

[cmg]

Sorry, oh great one. Please tell me something more about me! And maybe you can say that half of Beethovens sonatas actually aren't that good.

Notice anything consistent in this poster's comments? See the defensiveness?  How the poster personalizes?   

Snap out it and grow up, douche -- intellectually.  When people challenge your sacred belief systems (i.e. Mozart may NOT be open to criticism as a composer since I LOVE him) they are not challenging your penis size or your I.Q.  However, your adolescent defensiveness indicates you apparently are indeed worried that the two aforementioned items are indeed inadequate. 

These threads are asking for DEBATE.  Debate, you Neanderthal, is a civil discourse that circumvents and therefore eliminates your obvious personality disorder.  This is NOT about you.  Your insignificance goes without mention, but, apparently, you need to be reminded of it.  Attacks on others, regarding their divergent opinions on Mozart, are not something we need to hear from you.     

Do everyone a favor and shut up.  Pianists here have the right to argue the merits of Mozart's output or Beethoven's without dealing with your personalization of the issue -- so profound, obviously, that you get pissed and have to attack us.  Just because I don't hold Mozart to be as high as the Handmaiden of God, doesn't mean I don't play his works infinitely better than you.  Which I'm certain I do.   

[pianoman53]

Hah, that was actually quite funny.

And well, you said that it's scarier to play mozart than Beethoven or Haydn. I said, no it isn't. How is that not debate?
And also, how is it possible to just say that something is scarier than something else? I actually don't mind playing Haydn or Mozart on a concert, but I hate playing Liszt. I feel very comfortable with just a few notes, cause I know I can play it well, and that I can tell more than what I could in a 1000000-notes piece by Liszt.

Most people probably think that you have notes to hind behind, and I simply disagree. It's very unprofessional to suddenly screwing up something difficult in Liszt, and then say "Nah, I don't really care. There are so many ntoes anyway, so I don't think anybody heard". But I guess some people like doing that...

[revanyoda777]

I have a history with Mozart's piano music. In one of my first piano recitals I chose the alla turka and totally made it sound like crap. On the other hand I also played Mvt. 1 from Beethoven's 13th sonata and did a decent job. I have been terrified of playing Mozart ever since. I agree that Mozart can be terrifying due to the clearness and clarity needed to pull it off. On the other hand the pedal in Beethoven's moonlight sonata saved me from disaster where I felt totally exposed with the Mozart. But I don't necessarly think Mozart is absolutely harder to play than Beethoven or Liszt, it just takes tons of practice and a seriousness about the art of his work which comes down to determination and a familiarity of his music. Personally for me Mozart has always been the most difficult, but then again I never really spent too much time on his music (I plan to though!)

[revanyoda777]

Ooops, I said Beethoven's 13th sonata when I meant 14th 

[werq34ac]

"It's so freaking hard, it's like harder than my [Chopin 1st] ballade." quote from a friend referring to Mozart Sonata in D major K311

[bachbrahmsschubert]

There is a common misconception amongst pianists that I've learned only through concertizing myself, and attending concerts of other pianists.

Mistakes through a muddled pedal sound much, much worse than a couple of errors in "crisp" compositions such as Bach, Mozart, Haydn, most of Schubert etc. To feel that one is safe behind a pedal is a very damaging philosophy and will only end up making your music sound worse.

Best wishes,