How do you learn to play without looking at the piano?

[nyiregyhazi]

So will using the black keys as guiders eventually allow me to not need them anymore? Or should I stop doing that altogether?

Also, what is a good way to practice finding any note without looking at they keyboard? Is the best way just to think of any note and then try to play it without looking and then check if you were right and if you were wrong try again? Or should one find the note a few times while looking and then look away and try again?

I appreciate your help!

Yeah, start by looking sometimes, other times feel your way around the black keys and just perceive where you are. Basically, you need to experiment plenty at first. You should have many options open to you.

[javierchomer]

hi
why do you want not looking at the keys?probably you want to sight read well in a piano concerto or something like that . so practice with music sheet in front of you clearly the music sheet should be at your level or below that .beside we are not blind so we can use our eyes.
thank you

If I look at the keys I loose track of the music sheet, and I get lost.

[javierchomer]

I understand your situation and bothering neighbors isn't nice.. BUT perhaps the most important thing when practicing is LISTENING to the sound, so you can create the sound that you want. After all, music isn't what notes you play, it's the colors and textures of the sounds you hear.

Thanks a lot for your advice.

[javierchomer]

you can do that too with an acoustic piano, just use the pedal in the middle. we always do that at our teacher's home, I only know that it won't do any harm for your practice and future way of playing piano.  

I don't have an acoustic piano yet. I will but one  in some months.


Thanks a lot for your advice.

[javierchomer]

ONLY IF YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST. It is VERY damaging to not listen to what you are playing. One gets  used to just pressing keys and playing notes rather than making music. You need to practice making music, not playing notes. To make music, you have to listen to what you are playing. Imagine if a painter had to paint inside a dark room. Same concept.

Thanks a lot for your advice. I used to paint, but I never did it without looking. I know what you mean.

[javierchomer]

It still makes a huge difference. You can't control dynamics, voicing, and even articulation suffers when you put down the middle pedal of an upright. I would recommend scheduling your practice times at times that bother your neighbors as little as possible so you don't have to worry about it.

Thanks a lot for your advice. But I live in a house, and I can play at any time of the day or night without bothering neighborhoods. 

[javierchomer]

why would you think that not looking at the piano makes you a better pianist?   Who told you that reading music and playing music are the same thing?  Who told you that a good reader and a good player are the same thing?  whoever told you that is lying.

In more primitive cultures everyone is a musician.  It's only here in the civilized world that we make such a distinction.

Nobody told me that. I just thought that fast reading it would help me to understand other people's playing a bit more faster. I know that there is a lot more to piano that just music sheets.

[javierchomer]

you of course can still hear the sound when using the pedal!! it just takes some time for a beginner to gain familiarity on fingers to make the sound loud enough.

Thanks a lot for your advice.

[javierchomer]

It's cool to be able to read, and it's cool to be able to play by ear.  The more skills you have, the better.  The important thing is that when you try to do something, to know why you are trying to do it.  The idea behind not looking at the keyboard is to not use it as a crutch if you're trying to learn to read, so this becomes a huge rule of Forbidden Things (and there shouldn't be such a thing as Forbidden Things that we dread to do forever after no known reason).  Reasons TO look at the keyboard is to be able to find distant keys, and reasons to look at your hands (esp. if you have the piece memorized when you are not trying to work on reading) is to look at how you are using your hands (and the rest of you).

If your aim is reading, then other skills tie into it.  If you understand a bit of theory, and recognize a cadence or chord progressions, for example, then your music becomes predictable and your hands and ears will anticipate where they want to go.  Don't be afraid to just explore the piano freely  some of the time.  Do you look for patterns in your music?  For example, the piece you played has phrases that repeat.  Can you hear them or see them?  Seeing such patterns also helps you anticipate as you read, and make sense of the music.

Think of this:
Knock knock!
Who's there.
Banana.
Banana who?
Banana Banana.

If you are familiar with knock knock jokes, then you will predict "Who's there" and "Banana who." before the words are said.  Music has a lot of predictable patterns like that and as you catch on, reading becomes a lot easier.   I am staying out of the debate of whether you should learn to read.  If this is your goal then some of these things might help.

Thanks a lot for your advice. My teacher told me to write down in which tone is. Like if it is in G minor, like to anticipate to what I am going to play.

[javierchomer]

-why are you all so mean to each other? why do you argue about who is "better." how are you going to ever be able to play this instrument if you are that worried about proving you are the one who knows everything.  distances between notes in music are called "intervals" it helps to use musical terms to prove you know what you are talking about--this seems kinda important to you.  I can always tell a "know it all" by how they misuse the language of music.

Well it is not that difficult the theory. It is just about reading, the difficult part is putting it on the piano. 

Thanks a lot for your understanding.

[javierchomer]

I don't really know if you're right or I am. I'm certainly sure that you've never practised like that either(or you have?). I just know people around me often do that(at least 2~3 hours per day I guess) and nothing bad has yet come to their playing.  putting down the pedal is just making the little hammers hit onto the clothing rather than the metal, I'm not really sure if that make a huge difference.

BUT..

I DON'T THINK HE WILL ACTUALLY PUT HIS MAIN PRACTICE TIME INTO THE NIGHT AND, ORIGINALLY I WAS JUST TRYING TO GIVE ADVICE OF HOW HE CAN USE AN ACOUSTIC PIANO TO DO THE SAME AS WHAT HE DOES ON AN ELECTRONIC PIANO!

:/

Thanks a lot for your advice. Well actually I would prefer an acoustic piano. And I will but one in about 3 months or maybe before. Playing on an electric piano is just like typing on a keyboard with the shape of a piano. But is all I have for the moment.

[javierchomer]

I kind of feel sorry for what I said in another thread that you started.  That advice of 'learn to not look at fingers' was a little unreliable, oh I don't know. I think I actually meant 'stare' rather than 'look', like someone else in this tread had said. the thing is actually the distraction. and I personally think that searching the keys by eyes will much slow down your process of memorising their positions, though I'm actually not sure if you do that or not.

that comment was really... embarrassing. i didn't expect you would take it so seriously. I'm very sorry if it misled you. 

No problem. But thanks anyway for your second advice.

[javierchomer]

Ethure, I can tell you as a former adult beginner and no longer beginner, that we adults take advice very seriously and very literally.  I've been told by a couple of teachers that this is their experience in general.  I remember a humorous image that I had of myself when I was a beginner when I realized it.  So you're learning to drive blindfolded.  Your co-driver says "a little bit more to the right" and you make a sharp turn to the right, straight for the tree.  So your co-driver/instructor says (trying to sound calm) "a little to the left" and you veer sharply the left straight for the edge of the cliff.  At the end you tell him what fun it was and secretly wonder why the poor fellow's hair seems to be standing on end.

Thanks a lot for your comment. It sounds interesting.

[javierchomer]

ethure--you are a true musician.  I've said a few things here I wished I hadn't, too.  takes a brave soul to own up to it.  Especially when it involves music.  way to go!

Thanks a lot for your comment.  

[javierchomer]

I have a Yamaha Electronic Keyboard that I practice on at home not because I am worried about waking people up, but because It's what I have. And, granted it is designed to mimic a piano more than anything even though there is a slight difference when I play my pieces for my teacher on her baby grand I don't have a problem with it not being the same. Just because it's not an actual piano doesn't mean that it's useless to practice on. Even though I prefer the sound of an acoustic piano.

Well actually I fell the same. My teacher has a upright piano at his house. Actually he now has to pianos. And he is going to sell me one. It is a Shiedmayer, A german piano. And upright piano. It doens't feel very good to play a piano that is made like a computer. But is what I bought to start up.

[javierchomer]

the textures created on a grand piano are most difficult to reproduce on an electronic keyboard.  However, if your instrument is an electronic keyboard than play it and be happy with it.  I play many more gigs with my digital piano then on a steinway.  hee hee  Though it would be nice to play every gig on a concert grand.  I play on whatever keys are in front of me.  As long as I get to play.  That keyboard does a whole lot that a piano cannot. it will stay in tune, just for starters. 

Well actually I would love to have a grand piano. But it is kind of expensive, I am going to buy an upright piano. And if I make money playing the piano, someday I will buy a grand piano. I will look great on the living room.  A grand piano costs about 30.000 dollars, it is a lot of money.

[javierchomer]

the textures on a grand piano are IMPOSSSIBLE to reproduce no matter how good the keyboard. Sure playing on an electric every now and then doesn't hurt, but practicing on one? There will be a point where you will realize that the electric is SEVERELY lacking in its ability for expression. If you have the right teacher, you should get this at around grade 7. If not, perhaps never. Most people learn once they reach pieces above grade 8.

Playing on an electric, harmless.
Practicing grade 7+ pieces on an electric? lets just say for every hour you spend on the electric, another hour will be needed on an acoustic to make up for it.

I feel about the same, so I am saving money to buy an acoustic piano. And I will buy one from my teacher.

[javierchomer]

I understand that practicing has its needs, but one should still attempt to find a good acoustic they can practice on at least every now and then. Perhaps i was exaggerating, but one can never develop the proper technique and musicality playing on uprights. Personally, I feel like i'm playing a completely different instrument when I play on an electric.

Actually I also feel the same about you. So I will buy an acoustic piano soon.

[javierchomer]

if you are lucky enough to play each and every performance on a perfectly tuned Steinway concert grand--then that is all you should practice on. 

maybe someday that will be the case for me   until then...

I will love to have that piano, but is very expensive for me so I will get an upright piano.

[javierchomer]

Is it bad if I have to slide my fingers between the black keys in order to find specific notes without looking?

Like if I need to find the second to highest F on the keyboard without looking I can't do it unless I have the black keys as guiders. Like I can go to the right general area on the keyboard but I can't get the exact right key unless I use the black keys as reference. :/

Thanks for your advice, I am already doing this. Thanks a lot.

[javierchomer]

Actually, that's exactly what the blind pianist Nobuyuki Tsuji does. Except he probably is much better at it than you are considering he won the Van Cliburn Competition. He prepares his hand before hand and feels the keys before playing them whenever he can since he can't see them. He's a fantastic pianist who plays with lots of soul, look him up on youtube.

Thanks a lot for your advice

[javierchomer]

I have to agree that a digital is NOT the same as a good acoustic piano.  And an acoustic upright, also, is not the same as a good acoustic grand piano.  If you are hoping to practise the ultimate heights in expression, sound quality, control... such as an advanced pianist would be trying to achieve, then yes, you do need a top quality instrument.  If a pianist is expected to perform on a top quality piano, such as a Steinway grand, then I believe the pianist needs a top quality instrument to practise on.  We definitely agree on this point.  But it is surely only a minority who progress to this point.   

Other pianos, electric or otherwise, will never match or compare with a superior grand piano, but they do have their place and for this reason alone, I would be wary of saying they are not good enough to practise on, unless one is a top performing pianist striving for the ultimate.

Not all the people live in a big house and have a lot of money. I mean my house is big, and I have space to put a grand piano. But 30,000 dollars is a lot of money. And there are not money grand pianos in Argentina. only a few. What I can buy for the moment is an upright piano. If I make money playing the piano I will buy a grand piano some day.

[javierchomer]

My wife made a blindfold for my piano.  It is a peice of fabric which spans the entire keyboard and fastens underneath using velcro.  It is suspended about 4 inches above the keys resting on the corner structure of the piano.  Make one and learn to play with the blindfold on.  It will be very difficult at first, but you will get used to it very quickly.

It sounds interesting, I could try it.

[javierchomer]

Wouldn't it just be easier to close your eyes? If it's suspended 4 inches above the keys, you might end up hitting it when playing jumps. One should not compromise their technique because of unnecessary attachments to the piano.

Maybe closing my eyes will be a better idea.

[javierchomer]

I'd imagine that more often than not, it's purely for assurance- not out of incapability of functioning without it. I presume he's up to playing things like the leaps in the Schumann Fantasy and La Campanella- where there's no question that he could possibly feel the keys before sounding them. If a person needs to feel their way around the black keys, that suggests they are habitually missing the correct movement and adding an adjustment. It's important to be capable of using just one movement to cover a distance perfectly. The trick is to look at the note first and then move instantly over the top of it without playing it. If you miss it, you have to keep trying until you get there direct- rather than simply make an extra movement to "fix" the error. Once you've done this a few times, you should be able to do it without looking and know whether you're in the right place or not. Then you're soon ready to actually play the note without stopping to prepare. Black keys are good for assurance (when you have time) but it's a bad idea to use them as a habitual basis for correcting position changes that have been missed.

Thanks a lot for your advice.

[javierchomer]

I guess not looking at the piano just comes from familiarity with the instrument. You don't need to see your nose to pick it. Same idea.

Thanks a lot for your advice.

[javierchomer]

so should I not use the black keys? I practice with a program called prestokeys which generates random notes on the staff at whatever tempo you want and I want to be able to find the right keys really fast without looking. Should I not use the black keys as guidance?

I tried to installed that program but for some reasons I always get errors.

[javierchomer]

yes and no. It's good to feel your way around the black keys as a means of developing proprioception- ie awareness of where your hand is actually ending up. But in the finished product, a pianist should certainly not be dependent upon having to scrabble their way around using the black keys to figure out if they're in the right place or not. In la campanella, there's no time to stop and feel if you got to the right place. Even there, it's good to practise feeling the key before playing it- but there's no time to literally do so in the end product.

By the way, I don't see any more value in jumping to random notes that are chosen for you than to ones you choose for yourself. I'd save random notes for a reading exercise, rather than panic yourself into trying to find them quickly on the piano. If anything, I'd say that a sense of surprise is the last thing you want. The more clearly you can visualise the exact movement from where you are beginning to where you are going, the better. Plan slowly but then move quickly.

Thanks a lot for your advice. 

[javierchomer]

So will using the black keys as guiders eventually allow me to not need them anymore? Or should I stop doing that altogether?

Also, what is a good way to practice finding any note without looking at they keyboard? Is the best way just to think of any note and then try to play it without looking and then check if you were right and if you were wrong try again? Or should one find the note a few times while looking and then look away and try again?

I appreciate your help!

It looks like a great exercise. thanks for your advice.