How do you learn to play without looking at the piano?

[javierchomer]

I have been playing for 3 months

I got addicted to the piano playing at least 5 hours a day. Every day without rest. I have a 88 keyboard. And I practice a lot doing first sight read, which is what I like the most. But the problem is that I always look at the keyboard. Like I could try to touch the black keys like a blind man to get to the keys I want to play but it does not look like a good idea. So could you give me some tips or exercises to learn how to play the piano without looking at it. I mean, If I could play without looking I could play first sight much faster. Like what I love most about the piano is playing new peaces of music. And I could do that easily without loosing track of where I was.

[asiantraveller101]

Don't worry. It will come with time and the more you play and practice. It will become easier not to look at the keyboard. Give yourself time.

[pianowolfi]

Short question: do you have a teacher?

[countrymath]

Every day without rest.

peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

wrong!

[javierchomer]

Don't worry. It will come with time and the more you play and practice. It will become easier not to look at the keyboard. Give yourself time.

Thanks for your advice, yes I will practice more.

[javierchomer]

Short question: do you have a teacher?

yes, I have a teacher, I have 3 classes per week.But I wanted to know other opinions as well.

[javierchomer]

peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

wrong!

So tell me what is wrong about this?

[countrymath]

So tell me what is wrong about this?

You should take several rests when practcing 5 hours a day

[javierchomer]

You should take several rests when practcing 5 hours a day

Thanks a lot  for your advice.

[ionian_tinnear]

It's ok to look at the keyboard..  It's not ok to stare at the keyboard, unless perhaps you have the piece memorized, but even then, don't stare.  Concentrate on the music.  When you have your piece memorized, you have to look somewhere, why not at you hands?  Just a little at least.

It takes time, but eventually you won't need to look directly at your hands to tell where they are, you will know via peripheral vision.

I could try to touch the black keys like a blind man to get to the keys

Interesting thing here.  It has been studied how some blind people still 'see'.  That is, their eyes work, but something is not connected that allows to 'see' what they see conciously.  Their brain still recieves the images, and processes them, they just don't 'see' the images.  It has been called 'Blind Sight'.  May explain how some blind pianist do it.

[musicbrian]

I am able to do that just after ONE piano lesson...it is called MEMORY! 

[danhuyle]

Write in the fingering. Also, start with beginner books just to get into the habit of not looking at the piano at that level.

[javierchomer]

It's ok to look at the keyboard..  It's not ok to stare at the keyboard, unless perhaps you have the piece memorized, but even then, don't stare.  Concentrate on the music.  When you have your piece memorized, you have to look somewhere, why not at you hands?  Just a little at least.

It takes time, but eventually you won't need to look directly at your hands to tell where they are, you will know via peripheral vision.

Interesting thing here.  It has been studied how some blind people still 'see'.  That is, their eyes work, but something is not connected that allows to 'see' what they see conciously.  Their brain still recieves the images, and processes them, they just don't 'see' the images.  It has been called 'Blind Sight'.  May explain how some blind pianist do it.

Thanks a lot for your advice.

[javierchomer]

I am able to do that just after ONE piano lesson...it is called MEMORY! 

Congratulations. But can you play lets say For Elise, without even looking at the keyboard.

I mean it is easy to memorize the configuration of the keyboard. But the distances between one octave and the following octave or 2 octaves after in relation with your hands. Lets say that you have to jump from one key to another key. Or if you have to do fast playing or play more difficult things.

[javierchomer]

Write in the fingering. Also, start with beginner books just to get into the habit of not looking at the piano at that level.

Thanks for your advice.

[werq34ac]

You have an 88key keyboard?? Personally, I can play without looking on any acoustic, but for some reason this instinct just goes out the window on an electric. It just doesn't feel right..


As for not looking at my hands, its sorta like typing on a computer keyboard without looking. You know where all the keys are, so you can type things like this post without looking at the keyboard. Same idea for piano. You know where each note is in relation to another so you don't have to look at the keyboard.

As for jumps, at some point, your hands should know how much to jump after practicing the piece for quite some time.

10 years of playing really familiarizes one with their instrument.

[japjisingh]

Practice is surely the key.. But you can try out to keep your eyes close during the easier sections of a song and just have a short look on the keys on some hard sections... It may be a little frustrating at first when you get some notes wrong but you'll get used to it.

[javierchomer]

You have an 88key keyboard?? Personally, I can play without looking on any acoustic, but for some reason this instinct just goes out the window on an electric. It just doesn't feel right..


As for not looking at my hands, its sorta like typing on a computer keyboard without looking. You know where all the keys are, so you can type things like this post without looking at the keyboard. Same idea for piano. You know where each note is in relation to another so you don't have to look at the keyboard.

As for jumps, at some point, your hands should know how much to jump after practicing the piece for quite some time.

10 years of playing really familiarizes one with their instrument.

Thanks a lot for your advice. I will have to buy an acoustic piano to practice more later on. But it is really usefull to have an elctric piano to be able to play at night with out disturbing others whilethey are sleeping.


 I can wrtie in the computer without looking.  SO it has ben more than 20 years of using computers. Unfortunately this does not count as experience when using a piano XD

[javierchomer]

Practice is surely the key.. But you can try out to keep your eyes close during the easier sections of a song and just have a short look on the keys on some hard sections... It may be a little frustrating at first when you get some notes wrong but you'll get used to it.

Thanks a lot for your advice.

[drazh]

hi
why do you want not looking at the keys?probably you want to sight read well in a piano concerto or something like that . so practice with music sheet in front of you clearly the music sheet should be at your level or below that .beside we are not blind so we can use our eyes.
thank you

[werq34ac]

Thanks a lot for your advice. I will have to buy an acoustic piano to practice more later on. But it is really usefull to have an elctric piano to be able to play at night with out disturbing others whilethey are sleeping.


 I can wrtie in the computer without looking.  SO it has ben more than 20 years of using computers. Unfortunately this does not count as experience when using a piano XD

 I understand your situation and bothering neighbors isn't nice.. BUT perhaps the most important thing when practicing is LISTENING to the sound, so you can create the sound that you want. After all, music isn't what notes you play, it's the colors and textures of the sounds you hear.

[ethure]

But it is really usefull to have an elctric piano to be able to play at night with out disturbing others whilethey are sleeping.

you can do that too with an acoustic piano, just use the pedal in the middle. we always do that at our teacher's home, I only know that it won't do any harm for your practice and future way of playing piano.  

[werq34ac]

you can do that too with an acoustic piano, just use the pedal in the middle. we always do that at our teacher's home, I only know that it won't do any harm for your practice and future way of playing piano.  

ONLY IF YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST. It is VERY damaging to not listen to what you are playing. One gets  used to just pressing keys and playing notes rather than making music. You need to practice making music, not playing notes. To make music, you have to listen to what you are playing. Imagine if a painter had to paint inside a dark room. Same concept.

[ethure]

ONLY IF YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST. It is VERY damaging to not listen to what you are playing. One gets  used to just pressing keys and playing notes rather than making music. You need to practice making music, not playing notes. To make music, you have to listen to what you are playing. Imagine if a painter had to paint inside a dark room. Same concept.

you of course can still hear the sound when using the pedal!! it just takes some time for a beginner to gain familiarity on fingers to make the sound loud enough.

[werq34ac]

you of course can still hear the sound when using the pedal!! it just takes some time for a beginner to gain familiarity on fingers to make the sound loud enough.

It still makes a huge difference. You can't control dynamics, voicing, and even articulation suffers when you put down the middle pedal of an upright. I would recommend scheduling your practice times at times that bother your neighbors as little as possible so you don't have to worry about it.

[dcstudio]

why would you think that not looking at the piano makes you a better pianist?   Who told you that reading music and playing music are the same thing?  Who told you that a good reader and a good player are the same thing?  whoever told you that is lying.

In more primitive cultures everyone is a musician.  It's only here in the civilized world that we make such a distinction.

[keypeg]

It's cool to be able to read, and it's cool to be able to play by ear.  The more skills you have, the better.  The important thing is that when you try to do something, to know why you are trying to do it.  The idea behind not looking at the keyboard is to not use it as a crutch if you're trying to learn to read, so this becomes a huge rule of Forbidden Things (and there shouldn't be such a thing as Forbidden Things that we dread to do forever after no known reason).  Reasons TO look at the keyboard is to be able to find distant keys, and reasons to look at your hands (esp. if you have the piece memorized when you are not trying to work on reading) is to look at how you are using your hands (and the rest of you).

If your aim is reading, then other skills tie into it.  If you understand a bit of theory, and recognize a cadence or chord progressions, for example, then your music becomes predictable and your hands and ears will anticipate where they want to go.  Don't be afraid to just explore the piano freely  some of the time.  Do you look for patterns in your music?  For example, the piece you played has phrases that repeat.  Can you hear them or see them?  Seeing such patterns also helps you anticipate as you read, and make sense of the music.

Think of this:
Knock knock!
Who's there.
Banana.
Banana who?
Banana Banana.

If you are familiar with knock knock jokes, then you will predict "Who's there" and "Banana who." before the words are said.  Music has a lot of predictable patterns like that and as you catch on, reading becomes a lot easier.   I am staying out of the debate of whether you should learn to read.  If this is your goal then some of these things might help.

[dcstudio]

Congratulations. But can you play lets say For Elise, without even looking at the keyboard.

I mean it is easy to memorize the configuration of the keyboard. But the distances between one octave and the following octave or 2 octaves after in relation with your hands. Lets say that you have to jump from one key to another key. Or if you have to do fast playing or play more difficult things.

Congratulations. But can you play lets say For Elise, without even looking at the keyboard.

I mean it is easy to memorize the configuration of the keyboard. But the distances between one octave and the following octave or 2 octaves after in relation with your hands. Lets say that you have to jump from one key to another key. Or if you have to do fast playing or play more difficult things.

-why are you all so mean to each other? why do you argue about who is "better." how are you going to ever be able to play this instrument if you are that worried about proving you are the one who knows everything.  distances between notes in music are called "intervals" it helps to use musical terms to prove you know what you are talking about--this seems kinda important to you.  I can always tell a "know it all" by how they misuse the language of music.

[ethure]

It still makes a huge difference. You can't control dynamics, voicing, and even articulation suffers when you put down the middle pedal of an upright. I would recommend scheduling your practice times at times that bother your neighbors as little as possible so you don't have to worry about it.

I don't really know if you're right or I am. I'm certainly sure that you've never practised like that either(or you have?). I just know people around me often do that(at least 2~3 hours per day I guess) and nothing bad has yet come to their playing.  putting down the pedal is just making the little hammers hit onto the clothing rather than the metal, I'm not really sure if that make a huge difference.

BUT..

I DON'T THINK HE WILL ACTUALLY PUT HIS MAIN PRACTICE TIME INTO THE NIGHT AND, ORIGINALLY I WAS JUST TRYING TO GIVE ADVICE OF HOW HE CAN USE AN ACOUSTIC PIANO TO DO THE SAME AS WHAT HE DOES ON AN ELECTRONIC PIANO!

:/

[ethure]

I have been playing for 3 months

I got addicted to the piano playing at least 5 hours a day. Every day without rest. I have a 88 keyboard. And I practice a lot doing first sight read, which is what I like the most. But the problem is that I always look at the keyboard. Like I could try to touch the black keys like a blind man to get to the keys I want to play but it does not look like a good idea. So could you give me some tips or exercises to learn how to play the piano without looking at it. I mean, If I could play without looking I could play first sight much faster. Like what I love most about the piano is playing new peaces of music. And I could do that easily without loosing track of where I was.

I kind of feel sorry for what I said in another thread that you started.  That advice of 'learn to not look at fingers' was a little unreliable, oh I don't know. I think I actually meant 'stare' rather than 'look', like someone else in this tread had said. the thing is actually the distraction. and I personally think that searching the keys by eyes will much slow down your process of memorising their positions, though I'm actually not sure if you do that or not.

that comment was really... embarrassing. i didn't expect you would take it so seriously. I'm very sorry if it misled you. 

[dcstudio]

ethure--you are a true musician.  I've said a few things here I wished I hadn't, too.  takes a brave soul to own up to it.  Especially when it involves music.  way to go!

[keypeg]

Ethure, I can tell you as a former adult beginner and no longer beginner, that we adults take advice very seriously and very literally.  I've been told by a couple of teachers that this is their experience in general.  I remember a humorous image that I had of myself when I was a beginner when I realized it.  So you're learning to drive blindfolded.  Your co-driver says "a little bit more to the right" and you make a sharp turn to the right, straight for the tree.  So your co-driver/instructor says (trying to sound calm) "a little to the left" and you veer sharply the left straight for the edge of the cliff.  At the end you tell him what fun it was and secretly wonder why the poor fellow's hair seems to be standing on end.

[collectivecolors]

I understand your situation and bothering neighbors isn't nice.. BUT perhaps the most important thing when practicing is LISTENING to the sound, so you can create the sound that you want. After all, music isn't what notes you play, it's the colors and textures of the sounds you hear.

I have a Yamaha Electronic Keyboard that I practice on at home not because I am worried about waking people up, but because It's what I have. And, granted it is designed to mimic a piano more than anything even though there is a slight difference when I play my pieces for my teacher on her baby grand I don't have a problem with it not being the same. Just because it's not an actual piano doesn't mean that it's useless to practice on. Even though I prefer the sound of an acoustic piano.

[dcstudio]

the textures created on a grand piano are most difficult to reproduce on an electronic keyboard.  However, if your instrument is an electronic keyboard than play it and be happy with it.  I play many more gigs with my digital piano then on a steinway.  hee hee  Though it would be nice to play every gig on a concert grand.  I play on whatever keys are in front of me.  As long as I get to play.  That keyboard does a whole lot that a piano cannot. it will stay in tune, just for starters. 

[werq34ac]

the textures on a grand piano are IMPOSSSIBLE to reproduce no matter how good the keyboard. Sure playing on an electric every now and then doesn't hurt, but practicing on one? There will be a point where you will realize that the electric is SEVERELY lacking in its ability for expression. If you have the right teacher, you should get this at around grade 7. If not, perhaps never. Most people learn once they reach pieces above grade 8.

Playing on an electric, harmless.
Practicing grade 7+ pieces on an electric? lets just say for every hour you spend on the electric, another hour will be needed on an acoustic to make up for it.

[dcstudio]

really? an hour?  c'mon.  people tend to take this issue far too seriously.  not everyone has access to an instrument like that.  Should they not be permitted to play classical music?  Are everyone's goals in music the same as yours? of course not. 

werq34ac--on  what data do you base this analysis? what electric instruments have you used in performance?  have you always been provided an adequate grand piano at every gig?  There are now digital pianos that actually come pretty darn close--both in action and expression.

I would check a few of them out before you make sweeping broad general statements like that, my friend.  Sure, Kissney probably doesn't play on one--but that doesn't mean that no one should...right?

[sucom]

the textures on a grand piano are IMPOSSSIBLE to reproduce no matter how good the keyboard. Sure playing on an electric every now and then doesn't hurt, but practicing on one? There will be a point where you will realize that the electric is SEVERELY lacking in its ability for expression. If you have the right teacher, you should get this at around grade 7. If not, perhaps never. Most people learn once they reach pieces above grade 8.

Playing on an electric, harmless.
Practicing grade 7+ pieces on an electric? lets just say for every hour you spend on the electric, another hour will be needed on an acoustic to make up for it.

I have to disagree.  An electric piano is not SEVERELY lacking although I agree, it is lacking to a certain extent if compared to a particularly GOOD acoustic piano.  Not all acoustics are good though, are they?  I also have to disagree that you would need a hour on an acoustic to make up for an hour's practice on a digital.  This is simply not true. We would all like to be able to play on the best instrument but for the majority, this is not possible.  And for those where volume is a problem, ie. making a difference between being able to practice or not, then the digital is worth its weight in gold.

[werq34ac]

I understand that practicing has its needs, but one should still attempt to find a good acoustic they can practice on at least every now and then. Perhaps i was exaggerating, but one can never develop the proper technique and musicality playing on uprights. Personally, I feel like i'm playing a completely different instrument when I play on an electric.

[dcstudio]

if you are lucky enough to play each and every performance on a perfectly tuned Steinway concert grand--then that is all you should practice on. 

maybe someday that will be the case for me   until then...

[nickadams]

Is it bad if I have to slide my fingers between the black keys in order to find specific notes without looking?

Like if I need to find the second to highest F on the keyboard without looking I can't do it unless I have the black keys as guiders. Like I can go to the right general area on the keyboard but I can't get the exact right key unless I use the black keys as reference. :/

[werq34ac]

Is it bad if I have to slide my fingers between the black keys in order to find specific notes without looking?

Like if I need to find the second to highest F on the keyboard without looking I can't do it unless I have the black keys as guiders. Like I can go to the right general area on the keyboard but I can't get the exact right key unless I use the black keys as reference. :/

Actually, that's exactly what the blind pianist Nobuyuki Tsuji does. Except he probably is much better at it than you are considering he won the Van Cliburn Competition. He prepares his hand before hand and feels the keys before playing them whenever he can since he can't see them. He's a fantastic pianist who plays with lots of soul, look him up on youtube.

[sucom]

I understand that practicing has its needs, but one should still attempt to find a good acoustic they can practice on at least every now and then. Perhaps i was exaggerating, but one can never develop the proper technique and musicality playing on uprights. Personally, I feel like i'm playing a completely different instrument when I play on an electric.

I have to agree that a digital is NOT the same as a good acoustic piano.  And an acoustic upright, also, is not the same as a good acoustic grand piano.  If you are hoping to practise the ultimate heights in expression, sound quality, control... such as an advanced pianist would be trying to achieve, then yes, you do need a top quality instrument.  If a pianist is expected to perform on a top quality piano, such as a Steinway grand, then I believe the pianist needs a top quality instrument to practise on.  We definitely agree on this point.  But it is surely only a minority who progress to this point.   

Other pianos, electric or otherwise, will never match or compare with a superior grand piano, but they do have their place and for this reason alone, I would be wary of saying they are not good enough to practise on, unless one is a top performing pianist striving for the ultimate.

[swansonjw]

My wife made a blindfold for my piano.  It is a peice of fabric which spans the entire keyboard and fastens underneath using velcro.  It is suspended about 4 inches above the keys resting on the corner structure of the piano.  Make one and learn to play with the blindfold on.  It will be very difficult at first, but you will get used to it very quickly.

[werq34ac]

My wife made a blindfold for my piano.  It is a peice of fabric which spans the entire keyboard and fastens underneath using velcro.  It is suspended about 4 inches above the keys resting on the corner structure of the piano.  Make one and learn to play with the blindfold on.  It will be very difficult at first, but you will get used to it very quickly.

Wouldn't it just be easier to close your eyes? If it's suspended 4 inches above the keys, you might end up hitting it when playing jumps. One should not compromise their technique because of unnecessary attachments to the piano.

[nyiregyhazi]

Actually, that's exactly what the blind pianist Nobuyuki Tsuji does. Except he probably is much better at it than you are considering he won the Van Cliburn Competition. He prepares his hand before hand and feels the keys before playing them whenever he can since he can't see them. He's a fantastic pianist who plays with lots of soul, look him up on youtube.

I'd imagine that more often than not, it's purely for assurance- not out of incapability of functioning without it. I presume he's up to playing things like the leaps in the Schumann Fantasy and La Campanella- where there's no question that he could possibly feel the keys before sounding them. If a person needs to feel their way around the black keys, that suggests they are habitually missing the correct movement and adding an adjustment. It's important to be capable of using just one movement to cover a distance perfectly. The trick is to look at the note first and then move instantly over the top of it without playing it. If you miss it, you have to keep trying until you get there direct- rather than simply make an extra movement to "fix" the error. Once you've done this a few times, you should be able to do it without looking and know whether you're in the right place or not. Then you're soon ready to actually play the note without stopping to prepare. Black keys are good for assurance (when you have time) but it's a bad idea to use them as a habitual basis for correcting position changes that have been missed.

[swansonjw]

I use the blindfold for practicing sight-reading, so closing my eyes is not an option, and neither is it for someone who needs to read the score for any other reason.

[werq34ac]

I guess not looking at the piano just comes from familiarity with the instrument. You don't need to see your nose to pick it. Same idea.

[nickadams]

I'd imagine that more often than not, it's purely for assurance- not out of incapability of functioning without it. I presume he's up to playing things like the leaps in the Schumann Fantasy and La Campanella- where there's no question that he could possibly feel the keys before sounding them. If a person needs to feel their way around the black keys, that suggests they are habitually missing the correct movement and adding an adjustment. It's important to be capable of using just one movement to cover a distance perfectly. The trick is to look at the note first and then move instantly over the top of it without playing it. If you miss it, you have to keep trying until you get there direct- rather than simply make an extra movement to "fix" the error. Once you've done this a few times, you should be able to do it without looking and know whether you're in the right place or not. Then you're soon ready to actually play the note without stopping to prepare. Black keys are good for assurance (when you have time) but it's a bad idea to use them as a habitual basis for correcting position changes that have been missed.

so should I not use the black keys? I practice with a program called prestokeys which generates random notes on the staff at whatever tempo you want and I want to be able to find the right keys really fast without looking. Should I not use the black keys as guidance?

[nyiregyhazi]

so should I not use the black keys? I practice with a program called prestokeys which generates random notes on the staff at whatever tempo you want and I want to be able to find the right keys really fast without looking. Should I not use the black keys as guidance?

yes and no. It's good to feel your way around the black keys as a means of developing proprioception- ie awareness of where your hand is actually ending up. But in the finished product, a pianist should certainly not be dependent upon having to scrabble their way around using the black keys to figure out if they're in the right place or not. In la campanella, there's no time to stop and feel if you got to the right place. Even there, it's good to practise feeling the key before playing it- but there's no time to literally do so in the end product.

By the way, I don't see any more value in jumping to random notes that are chosen for you than to ones you choose for yourself. I'd save random notes for a reading exercise, rather than panic yourself into trying to find them quickly on the piano. If anything, I'd say that a sense of surprise is the last thing you want. The more clearly you can visualise the exact movement from where you are beginning to where you are going, the better. Plan slowly but then move quickly.

[nickadams]

yes and no. It's good to feel your way around the black keys as a means of developing proprioception- ie awareness of where your hand is actually ending up. But in the finished product, a pianist should certainly not be dependent upon having to scrabble their way around using the black keys to figure out if they're in the right place or not. In la campanella, there's no time to stop and feel if you got to the right place. Even there, it's good to practise feeling the key before playing it- but there's no time to literally do so in the end product.

By the way, I don't see any more value in jumping to random notes that are chosen for you than to ones you choose for yourself. I'd save random notes for a reading exercise, rather than panic yourself into trying to find them quickly on the piano. If anything, I'd say that a sense of surprise is the last thing you want. The more clearly you can visualise the exact movement from where you are beginning to where you are going, the better. Plan slowly but then move quickly.

So will using the black keys as guiders eventually allow me to not need them anymore? Or should I stop doing that altogether?

Also, what is a good way to practice finding any note without looking at they keyboard? Is the best way just to think of any note and then try to play it without looking and then check if you were right and if you were wrong try again? Or should one find the note a few times while looking and then look away and try again?

I appreciate your help!